[Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quality? in Earthlink DSL http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21072949 en Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:47:43 EDT Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:47:43 EDT Re: [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quali http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21089040 Doctor Olds : That I understand. But at 3.0 Sync Rate they may show similar abilities or not. ;) Your line is just too long for the 6.0 service as you have found out, but with the 3.0 service you should have a very stable line with any DSL Modem.

As far as I know, there are no settings in the DSL Modem (Bridge or Router versions) that can lower the connect rate as DSL Modems are Passive syncing at the rate they can see on the line.
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What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21089040 Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:02:00 EDT Re: [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quali http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21088797 joeblough : i guess what i was trying to say is that if the westell firmware limits the line to a lower rate (without locking up the head end) then i could use that modem if i'm interested in line stability. in that case i don't want to upgrade the firmware!

i doubt the westell model would do better than the zyxel holding the line up at 6mbits, as the front end circuits of the zycel asics should theoretically have better noise performance than the ones in the westell...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21088797 Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:21:46 EDT Re: [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quali http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21088546 Doctor Olds :
said by joeblough See Profile :

the westell is pretty old, maybe from 1999 or so. it doesnt have a ppp client built into it, but i could probably make my router do that.
Yes, that is a Bridge only Modem meaning you supply the PPPoE by either using a Router with PPPoE in Firmware or a PPPoE Dialer Client software in a PC. It still should support up to 8.0 Mbps Standard ADSL. Look for Firmware and update it.

I have a Speedstream 5260 and a 5660 (first one is a Bridge/Modem, second is a Router/Modem - both from 1999/2000) and both sync with my 6.0 line at the correct rate of 6016 Kbps.

Regards,

Doctor Olds
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What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21088546 Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:32:10 EDT Re: [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quali http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21088368 joeblough : the westell is pretty old, maybe from 1999 or so. it doesnt have a ppp client built into it, but i could probably make my router do that.

anyway its not an optimal solution as i'd probably be able to get by with 3mbit and the westell only gave me 1.5.

this earthlink connection is a backup connection for me so perhaps its okay in its somewhat compromised state.

at any rate i'll take your advice and call the earthlink number to see what can be done. thanks for the help!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21088368 Wed, 10 Sep 2008 13:55:46 EDT Re: [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quali http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21086294 Doctor Olds : "Live Chat" is basically 100% useless in my opinion. What you posted shows that they typically do not know what they are telling customers. I think some just make it up as they go along since it is not binding. You can upgrade to higher speeds as well as downgrade to lower speeds. After all, it is your account. I re-suggest that you call Customer Service on the Telephone and speak to them as they are the department that handles changes to your existing account. "Live Chat" telling you that you can't downgrade ranks right up there with you can't cancel, LOL! :D

»www.earthlink.net/access/dsl.faces

[att=1][att=2]

As to your Westell, it should be able to support up to 8 Mbps like all standard ADSL Modems since it is a specification that has been around since 1998. It may be a Firmware issue or it may be a older Westell that needs shorter lines to see higher speeds, but I'm not aware of any Westells that can't at the very least sync up to 6.0 Speeds. There are so many different models, it is impossible to say for sure.

There is a Westell Forum that would be where you would ask about your Westell and inquire about finding any Firmware updates/upgrades for it.

Regards,

Doctor Olds
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?
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]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21086294 Wed, 10 Sep 2008 03:40:23 EDT Re: [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quali http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21085978 joeblough : well... that's strange. the 'live chat' support people in india claim that *only* 6mbps service is available in my area, and that i can't downgrade.

furthermore they say that "in the future" i will be able to downgrade, and that their engineers are working on this problem, but there is no ETA. they say i will receive an email when downgrading is possible in my area.

i find this really hard to believe.

is this just a sales tactic?

by the way - i remember that when i signed up for this service, but before i got the home install kit, i used my old westell modem to see if the line had been provisioned. if i remember correctly i did get the link up at 1.5mbits with that modem, and was pleasantly surprised when i received the zyxel modem and found that i was getting 6mbits/sec...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21085978 Wed, 10 Sep 2008 00:49:55 EDT Re: [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quali http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21079190 joeblough : okay, they must have reset the port - i got a call this afternoon that they had done something and when i got home just now the PPP link is up again.

i guess that ends my tweaking adventure. next is downgrading a tier...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21079190 Mon, 08 Sep 2008 22:20:16 EDT Re: [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quali http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21076956 Doctor Olds : Alright! Sounds like a plan. ;) Let us know how things go.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21076956 Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:19:05 EDT Re: [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quali http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21076760 joeblough :
said by Doctor Olds See Profile :

Since I can't see it, all I can do is imagine that you have wiring for two lines in the entire house and any place that the wiring the DSL is on that isn't to the Modem, needs to be split off/filtered. Now from your last post, if I understand it fully, the second line with DSL hits the NID and then from there is the only connection straight to the DSL Modem jack. Meaning that there are no further connections like a star topography or daisy chain topography running off of that same line and if that is correct then that would be OK.
yes, that is correct. the house actually has 2 bundles, each of course with two twisted pairs. one bundle goes to every telephone jack in the house. on that bundle, on the primary pair, i have only my voice landline. the 2nd bundle goes only to the office. the telephone line with the DSL is now the primary pair on that bundle. it used to be the secondary pair on the same bundle, so switching them probably didnt do any good at all.

the house is only 10 years old, so the inside wiring is pretty clean. the test at the NID would indicate that the inside wiring is not part of the problem. i think i'm more than 10k feet from the CO... as you've pointed out from the attenuation data. probably this line should have never been provisioned for 6mbits.

anwyay at this point i can only hope and pray that my ticket gets escalated to someone who can go reset my port on the DSLAM... after that, i'll probably call in and see if i can get reprovisioned for 3mbits, and hopefully that will solve my problem.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21076760 Mon, 08 Sep 2008 14:38:38 EDT Re: [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quali http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21076649 Doctor Olds : Since I can't see it, all I can do is imagine that you have wiring for two lines in the entire house and any place that the wiring the DSL is on that isn't to the Modem, needs to be split off/filtered. Now from your last post, if I understand it fully, the second line with DSL hits the NID and then from there is the only connection straight to the DSL Modem jack. Meaning that there are no further connections like a star topography or daisy chain topography running off of that same line and if that is correct then that would be OK.
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What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21076649 Mon, 08 Sep 2008 14:16:15 EDT Re: [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quali http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21076584 joeblough : yeah i probably locked up the DSLAM port. hopefully someone can reset it on the other end. i design networking chips so i'm not afraid of messing with things, but i should know better... i've had my own share of bugs and corner cases that ended in port lockups when configurations changed.

anyway, i'm not sure why you think my wiring is suspect. i have 2 phone lines from AT&T. one of them also has DSL on it. they come into my house on separate pairs from the telco, and they go to separate pairs on the inside wiring.

why would i need a splitter? the phone line with the dsl looks like this:

=== telco line === NID === DSL modem.

thanks.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21076584 Mon, 08 Sep 2008 14:03:13 EDT Re: [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quali http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21076461 Doctor Olds : I can't see your wiring, but have a feeling it is mis-configured as I' not clear on how you have things actually wired, plus it sounds like you do not have a Splitter. You may have DSL signal being echoed up both lines and that would not be good.

EL and Covad do not sell or support G.LITE connections and I would have never suggested that you even try that as it is not always fully supported. Officially, G.DMT and ANSI T1.413 are the two Modulations so yes you may have confused/locked up the port in the DSLAM by forcing a G.LITE connection, but I don't know this for sure or not. Covad uses Nokia D50 DSLAMs for their Standard DSL and another unit (that I can't at this moment remember the brand) for their ADSL2+ service.
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What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21076461 Mon, 08 Sep 2008 13:39:57 EDT Re: [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quali http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21076261 joeblough :
said by Doctor Olds See Profile :

So you are testing at the NID using the test jacks? Is there DSL on both jacks by accident? You should have two test jacks, one for each line, but only one should have DSL on it.
actually the NID has space for 6 lines, but only two of them are active. my main phone number and my DSL phone number.

yes, i tested using the test jack. i didnt look to see if there was DSL on both jacks. the telco side of my NID is actually opened and so i was able to switch the DSL line to another inside pair easily. the modem worked fine for several hours after the switch but after my initial post i started messing with the modulation via "wan adsl openmode" to see if i could get a more stable line with Glite. though if i remember correctly it dropped the PPP connection before i did this.

i wonder if i hosed up the DSLAM's config somehow by asking my modem to negotiate at 1.5mbit/s. i just cant get a PPP link anymore. i just had a nice chat with some dude in india who offered to sell me a new modem for $80 but when i pushed back a little he claimed they would escalate this up and someone would check the CO, but i'm not holding my breath.

i actually work at alcatel but who knows, the DSLAM might be redback/ericcson :) not that it helps me to have the documentation for the head end that much...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21076261 Mon, 08 Sep 2008 13:03:47 EDT Re: [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quali http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21076208 Doctor Olds : So you are testing at the NID using the test jacks? Is there DSL on both jacks by accident? You should have two test jacks, one for each line, but only one should have DSL on it.

[att=1]

There isn't a special number, you just call the EL main number and use the Menu for Customer Service to make account changes as that wouldn't be a Tech Support issue.

quote:
Support for your existing EarthLink service: 888-829-8466
Billing and Account Changes
M-F 7am-midnight ET
Sat-Sun 8am-10pm ET

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]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21076208 Mon, 08 Sep 2008 12:56:06 EDT Re: [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quali http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21076022 joeblough :
quote:
One thing I don't understand is what do you mean by saying the DSL is on a different pair without phones? Your DSL, if you are using a DSL Splitter, should have a home run straight from the Splitter to the Modem's jack. If you have just moved it to another pair without the whole house splitter, then that creates reflections in the DSL making the signal degraded and throwing off of the actual SNR and Attenuation figures is likely under those conditions.


i should have been more clear. i have two phone lines. the DSL is installed on the 2nd line, and i don't have anything else on that line but the DSL modem. the house has 4 pairs wired internally and i just moved the DSL phone number to a different pair hoping to see an improvement. but the numbers before and after the move, and indeed at the NID are all pretty much the same.

i should try for naked DSL since i'm also paying ATT $20 a month for this otherwise unused phone number.

who / what number should i contact at earthlink to try to get the line reprovisioned for 3mbits?

thanks for your help.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21076022 Mon, 08 Sep 2008 12:19:40 EDT Re: [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quali http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21075983 Doctor Olds : EL resells 1.5, 3.0 and 6.0 speeds for Standard DSL. Your line appears to be too long for 6.0 so that means 3.0 is the best it will handle of what is available.

Yes, as speeds change, the numbers change for the SNR, but the Attenuation stays the same since it is primarily a distance measurement.

How do I check modem statistics/event logs? What do the numbers mean?

Although what is monitored and the exact name may be different depending on manufacturer, the overall information is pretty much the same. Below are some of the common terms and measurements used to judge line quality. Remember these are not hard numbers but simply a generalization of line statistics:

SN Margin (AKA Signal to Noise Margin or Signal to Noise Ratio)
Relative strength of the DSL signal to Noise ratio. 6dB is generally the lowest dB manufactures specify in order for the modem to be able to synch. In some instances interleaving can help raise the noise margin to an acceptable level. Generally speaking, as overall bandwidth increases, your signal to noise ratio decreases. So a customer that upgrades from 1.5 to 6.0 service will typically see a corresponding decrease in the signal to noise ratio. The higher the number the better for this measurement.
6dB or below is bad and will experience no synch or intermittent synch problems
7dB-10dB is fair but does not leave much room for variances in conditions
11dB-20dB is good with no synch problems
20dB-28dB is excellent
29dB or above is outstanding

Line Attenuation
Measure of how much the signal has degraded between the DSLAM and the modem. Maximum signal loss recommendation is usually about 60dB. One of the biggest factors affecting line attenuation is distance from the DSLAM. Generally speaking, bigger distances mean higher attenuation. The lower the dB the better for this measurement.
20dB and below is outstanding
20dB-30dB is excellent
30dB-40dB is very good
40dB-50dB is good
50dB-60dB is poor and may experience connectivity issues
60dB or above is bad and will experience connectivity issues
One thing I don't understand is what do you mean by saying the DSL is on a different pair without phones? Your DSL, if you are using a DSL Splitter, should have a home run straight from the Splitter to the Modem's jack. If you have just moved it to another pair without the whole house splitter, then that creates reflections in the DSL making the signal degraded and throwing off of the actual SNR and Attenuation figures is likely under those conditions.

»EarthLink DSL FAQ »How do I test at my NID? What does it look like?

»EarthLink DSL FAQ »Can I see an example of a splitter install?

[att=1]

Regards,

Doctor Olds
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21075983 Mon, 08 Sep 2008 12:12:41 EDT Re: [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quali http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21075677 joeblough : hi Doctor Olds,

probably my line is just too long for this level of service then, because typically i see numbers like this:


actually overnight something else has gone wrong. the modem is able to sync the dsl line, but then fails to log in to the PPP server. i tried reconfiguring the modem as bridged and then using my mac to start a PPPoE session but that fails too. so i wonder if the modem is bad, or if moving to the other inside pair caused the line to degrade slightly such that it cant log in anymore.

though you would think if the line will sync, then it should be able to send data while it's up.

as for the modulation:

i had experimented with changing this to g.lite and it synced up at 1.5mbit with much higher noise margins. however this was already after the modem couldnt negotiate a PPP session anymore, so i couldnt test the line stability, though the SNR numbers were much better.

is there a service tier that's between 6mbit and 1.5mbit? maybe 4mbit or something? if 4mbit uses g.dmt, will the SNR still be bad, or will it improve at 4mbit?

thanks.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21075677 Mon, 08 Sep 2008 11:14:23 EDT Re: [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quali http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21074587 Doctor Olds : There are only two Modulations for Standard "Full Rate" ADSL as seen in the attached image. Which one is your Modem connecting with? ADSL Modems are Passive Devices and therefore connect at the Sync Rate and Modulation it is able to first see coming from the DSLAM. G.DMT is the newer of the two ADSL Modulations, with ANSI T1.413 being the original ADSL Modulation from 1998.

What kills DSL along with a too low SNR (6.0 Mbps needs at a minimum 11 dB to 12 dB or Higher to be stable) is the Attenuation which is primarily a measure of the line length.

[att=2]

What is your Downstream Attenuation showing to be? For 6.0 service it need to be no higher than 35 dB to 37 dB Max Attenuation.
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21074587 Mon, 08 Sep 2008 04:07:46 EDT [Line Problem] configuring P-600 to deal with bad line quality? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21072949 joeblough : hi everyone -

i've got earthlink dsl; network provider is covad and telco is ATT (former SBC).

the DSL comes on a 2nd phone line which has no other loads but the DSL modem. my upstream and downstream SNR numbers are pretty bad - both 8dB. i've done the test at the NID with the same result, so my inside wiring is good.

today i fiddled with the NID and switched the DSL line to a different inside pair. its marginally better, but still dropping like every hour or so.

the line is provisioned for 6mbit/768kbit. amazingly, when it syncs, it gets about 5800/768 every time.

i've discovered the command line interface for the modem, and now i'm wondering if there are any adsl settings that can cause the modem to use a less agressive modulation scheme, or maybe just reduce the downstream/upstream bitrates in the hope of maintaining sync.

i really don't want to deal with all the hassle involved with trying to get the various entities involved to troubleshoot the line. i'd be happy if i could trade a bit of performance for stability.

so does anyone know if there are any relevant commands for this? or some detailed documentation of the P-600 CLI somewhere?

thanks for your help.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21072949 Sun, 07 Sep 2008 20:07:15 EDT