Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
| reply to drew
Re: [Rant] Ridiculous Overgear Expectations
PVE is why i play WoW.
MMORPG pvp is also about gear whoring, someone in Gamex's version of quest blues is going to get owned by someone in whatever the version of top rank pvp gear is.
IMO if you want real pvp, we need an MMOFPS that doesnt suck. sadly we can never have Planetside beta again.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports |
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drew
Reformation
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
clubs:
 ·wavebroadband
| You need progression in a MMOG.
Progression of 'Hey, I've killed 12,394 players' sucks. You need something, and gear is good. If you make the entire game gear-centric, then you end up with a problem though.
That being said, I couldn't care less about PVP. |
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Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA | They really should add some kind of "Slaughterhouse" title after some ungodly number of honorable kills.  |
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Hazmat
join:2007-07-10
Laveen, AZ
| I have always thought that the answer to PvP, in BGs or Arenas, was to implement something like what happens whe you are testing a new patch - your alt of choice gets copied over, BUT, they appear with the top-of-the-line gear for your class and spec.
That puts everybody in the same page with respect to gear, so only skill (and luck, that always counts!) is relevant.
When you leave the battle, you leave your goodies behind. And, as you accumulate honor points, you get to spend them on the very same gear, which you now get to use in your regular PvE or PvP realms.
And as to the always popular, n00b-can't-lern-2-play scenarios, no matter what your gear, if you do not know what to do, you will get owned. Period.
And, the more you know, the more honor you earn, etc., etc. |
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drew
Reformation
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
clubs:
·wavebroadband
| Wow, that's a great idea.
There's a 'vendor' in some PVP area. I go there and 'outfit' my character in what I'd like to see her in next time I go into an arena. I go and FIGHT in the arena in that gear, and am at the same level as the other guys gear wise, but since I suck at playing, I'm going to get stomped. That's fine, since the problem I have is lack of skill, not lack of skill and lack of gear.
The needed progression is then being able to buy that gear and use it in World PVP, PVE and BGs.
The point of the 'vendor' is to allow customization so that I can use spell haste gear if I want it. Or I can be spec'd resto and use boomkin gear. That's stupid, but it could be done!
Wow, A+ idea. |
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Dropper
join:2008-09-18
Anchorage, AK
| reply to drew
If the rumor about all pvp gear requiring a rating is true, then they've broken pvp permanently. They've basically taken away the only element of the game that allowed casual solo players and small guilds to continue playing at max level.
And they've solved nothing. People will continue to restart and artificially push players into low brackets, a never ending spiral downwards so that players that normally got 1550-1600 ratings in S1 - S3 are now getting 1300-1400 ratings and lower. Which in turn will do two things. Greatly increase the number of people buying a rating and greatly increase the number of people leaving the game for one that offers casual pvp and rewards for everyone.
Welfares were never a huge problem. They work for easy heroics and kara but as soon as you hit the harder raids they were insufficient. That alone did more to check the progression of welfare artists than any rating requirement. The only people that had a problem with welfares were the few that mistakenly believe seeing a player in epic pvp gear somehow devalues the pve drops they own. Even if on the surface your pve drops appear to have lower stats in terms of dps or healing, the supporting stats for mana or hit rating or whatever are what will take you further than anyone in so-called superior pvp gear.
No guild I've ever heard of would allow a person in nothing but arena gear to participate in a raid past Gruul and Magtheridon. You simply won't put out enough damage or healing when your mana runs out or you miss too many times. |
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Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA
| reply to drew
It kinda runs counter to the principles of MMORPGs: gear up so you can beat the %*@# outta the undergeared nubs. It's a great idea in the sense of keeping Arenas actually compeditive, but it'll never happen. The same people who defend the failed implimentation of Personal Ratings (ie. "gear doesn't matter") will be the same people QQing that they don't get to overgear & trainwreck beginners in Arena. |
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drew
Reformation
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
clubs:
·wavebroadband
| reply to Dropper
The PVP system is a wreck. I'm curious about Wintergrasp, however I have not taken the time to read up on it. I feel that getting TOO much Beta information would lead me to do one of two things 1) not want to play the expansion 2) give me the bad case of the 'gimme nows' |
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drew
Reformation
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
clubs: | reply to Thaler
I disagree.
You can get your fill of undergeared nubs in World PVP (Lake Wintergrasp) and in BGs. |
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Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA
| said by drew  :You can get your fill of undergeared nubs in World PVP (Lake Wintergrasp) and in BGs. True, but that's not what opponents of that idea will see. Grinding new/undergeared players into the dirt has been a long running theme in all MMORPG PvP. It'd take one hell of a revolution to offset the core base of thinking. |
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brrock
join:2008-09-12
Port Huron, MI
| reply to drew
Or if they want make it tiered where the lower tier gets crappier gear, but everyone in that tier has the same gear. For example you start in S1 but once you hit 1700 you can go for s2 gear, but only with others in S2 gear. This way the better players can play with better gears, but the gear is always on a even playing field. I am sure some people will whine and complain but those people can take the weapons they get from points and gank in the isle or whatever world pvp zone there is. I know it would make things more enjoyable for not just new players getting into pvp, but also character rerolls and alts. |
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drew
Reformation
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
clubs:
·wavebroadband
| That's the whole idea of the player matching, however it's been my experience that it's a whole lot of crap.
Last week I was trying to roll my face across my keyboard (I'm a resto druid) with a ret pally in 2s. When he wasn't being a complete moron, we did OK. However, I found that in the 1485-1560 area, we found several teams with S3 3/5 and like S4 2/5 with the S4 ranged/idol/whatever. Considering I'm rockin part S1 and part S2 with 1 S3 item and some PVE epics and my buddy has mostly S2 from honor, that seemed unfair. |
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DownLow
Nope...I Got Nothing
Premium
join:2001-04-25
Long Island
| said by drew :That's the whole idea of the player matching, however it's been my experience that it's a whole lot of crap. Last week I was trying to roll my face across my keyboard (I'm a resto druid) with a ret pally in 2s. When he wasn't being a complete moron, we did OK. However, I found that in the 1485-1560 area, we found several teams with S3 3/5 and like S4 2/5 with the S4 ranged/idol/whatever. Considering I'm rockin part S1 and part S2 with 1 S3 item and some PVE epics and my buddy has mostly S2 from honor, that seemed unfair. You want unfair....how's this for an example of the broken PVP matching system.
Last week on my 3s, around the 1560's, matched up against a rogue, priest, warrior team (I think that is what they were). They destroyed us in literally 15 secs. Turns out according to the armory that the rogue has a 2200+ 2v2 PR and is like the 6th or 7th ranked arena team on their sever (he also was using the legendary warglave). I know this doesn't happen often, but really... |
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Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA | I've seen a S4 rogue w/ dual warglaives when I was 1450-1500 in the 2s. Top that. |
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Dropper
join:2008-09-18
Anchorage, AK
4 edits | reply to drew
Ok I will. I started a new team, 1500 rating, with two others. 2 of us had mostly S2, one was about 1/2 geared in pve blues / greens. We naturally expected to lose, this was for practice.
We met one team 4 times that had at least 2 people in full S4. Not partial S4 with S3 or S2 shoulders. Full S4. Weapons, shoulders, everything. After 2 matches SSPVP showed me they were at 1560, we were at 1470. We met them twice more.
We then started meeting teams with only 4/5 S4, and eventually won a couple against teams that should have been at our level, that is those still wearing S2 shoulders and no gear that didn't require a rating above 1600. We were below 1400 before we met a team that should have been in the 1500-1600 ratings.
Kudos to Blizzard who invented a system of guaranteeing the new customers they got over the summer would never get beyond a 1600 rating unless they were exceptional at pvp or had the gold to buy their way to a level playing field. So much for ratings stopping people from buying arena pts, it actually had the opposite effect.
This kind of imbalance never happened to me when I started playing in the middle of S2. It didn't really happen much in S3 either, because you could still reach 4/5 S3 and therefore fight your way tooth and nail to a 1700+ rating. But when nearly all gear required a rating the balance left the game completely. All it took was a few idiots to realise that restarting guaranteed some easy kills and the tradition of ganking new arena players was born.
edit
And buying my way to a level playing field is exactly what I'll be doing if I find the same crap at level 80. I get to start at the beginning of a season so I should get some rated gear on my own, but I refuse to accept a system of artificially lowering my rating below my skill level.
If I'm geared equally and lose this is fine. Even if it's because of class imbalance I can accept it. But if it's because I meet a rogue with 40-60 more agility than me, because his skill got him to a high rating and he decided he prefers an easy life in the 1500s, screw that. |
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AB_Mobile
@spcsdns.net
| Barring some OMFG awesome gameplay/PvP in WotLK, if the arena system is as borked as it is now, I'll just as soon stop playing than buy my way into functional gameplay. Sorry, but having to pay gold to work around a failed system just really isn't a solution in my eyes. That just treats the symptoms of a broken system, rather than have Blizzard actually fixing the damn thing.
Not everyone starts off as a PvP ace to the game. Trying and rewarding those who try is what the PvP reward system should be about. But, when there's no real viable means of progression, the insentive to even try and train/progress dies as well. |
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Hazmat
join:2007-07-10
Laveen, AZ
| reply to drew
said by drew :Wow, that's a great idea. There's a 'vendor' in some PVP area. I go there and 'outfit' my character in what I'd like to see her in next time I go into an arena. I go and FIGHT in the arena in that gear, and am at the same level as the other guys gear wise, but since I suck at playing, I'm going to get stomped. That's fine, since the problem I have is lack of skill, not lack of skill and lack of gear. The needed progression is then being able to buy that gear and use it in World PVP, PVE and BGs. The point of the 'vendor' is to allow customization so that I can use spell haste gear if I want it. Or I can be spec'd resto and use boomkin gear. That's stupid, but it could be done! Wow, A+ idea. Drew, you went my idea one better.
Now, not only do you have a playing field that revolves around skill, not gear, but also you get to vary your gear to match spec and situations. It's a virtual closet for awesomness, that you can start bringing with you to sever wide as you progress and fine tune.
Good job  |
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Dropper
join:2008-09-18
Anchorage, AK
| reply to AB_Mobile
The only way a rating system can even semi-work is if you were required to maintain it in order to use the gear you earned. Restart and you lose your advantage until you re-earn your team rating. That takes care of people buying pts to some extent as they would have to convince the team they bought to keep them. I suppose they could maintain their rent, but I reckon it would cut into the numbers a bit.
But overall any system can be manipulated and both rating systems they've tried have been proven to be a disaster to most players.
I don't care if I don't get upgrades until my skill earns them, I do care if I have to face people using bought upgrades with no more skill than me or people who should never be allowed back into my skill bracket after they've worked their way out of it. |
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Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA
| reply to drew
Heh...I'd definately have to agree. The more Blizzard has mucked with Arena over the course of TBC, the more borked the system has become. Almost every single change they've done to items/ratings/sytem that they've done for beginning/average players have come back to bite that playerbase in the ass. In fact, I'm almost worried at this point as to what they'll do to revamp Arena for beginning players. Maybe make every piece of gear require PR? Issue the title "Fresh Meat" to those not in full Arena gear?
Who knows. Maybe they'll actually fix something this time. |
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drew
Reformation
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
clubs: | I have high hopes for Lake Wintergrasp. |
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