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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
 ·Comcast
| Elected Officials Must Go
The elected officials who supported this waste of money should do the honorable thing and quit now. Hopefully the voters will kick them out of office if that doesn't happen.
Governments have no business providing Internet service at taxpayer expense.
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"At the moment of conception." | |
RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
 ·XMission
| said by pnh102  :Governments have no business providing Internet service at taxpayer expense. "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" Did not a famous president by the name of Lincoln say that in defining Democracy, such as we supposedly have?
Or are you saying that should be "government of the people, by the corporation, and for the benefit of the corporation" since you do not believe that we should get together and have our elected representatives use the power of many to provide services to the people? Hmm.... too bad we can not apply your theory to welfare and a few other items that benefit the few paid by the many. But then, corporations do not want it since they do not care about people, just profits and control.
Granted that there is not too much difference in the bigger corporations and the Federal Government these days, except that the Government we think we elect and from the corporations we buy what we are told to.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Are you saying that elected officials who wasted precious taxpayer money on BS should be allowed to stay?
You speak like someone who doesn't pay taxes.
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"At the moment of conception." | |
RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| Re: Elected Officials have to Go To work
said by pnh102 :Are you saying that elected officials who wasted precious taxpayer money on BS should be allowed to stay? You speak like someone who doesn't pay taxes. Sorry, but I have paid taxes for too many years, and still doing it.
I can waste my money with my elected government or I can waste it with your corporation. I know you prefer the corporation taking the money, but for myself, I would rather have the local government doing it and having more of it stay local.
Corporations do have one advantage over local governments, they are not accountable to the people, and if it looks like they do not get their way, they buy a politician or two and get a law tossed on as a hidden rider at the Federal or State level to do what they want, despite what the people want or what may have been the right thing to do.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
a333
A hot cup of integrals please
join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY
 ·Cingular Wireless
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to RayW
Re: Elected Officials Must Go
Government by the people, blah blah blah doesn't mean social welfare. It also doesn't mean pork barrel welfare services that only help raise our national/state level debt. Internet is NOT a utility, buddy. The government is only supposed to help fund UTILITIES, such as water/sewage, and roads, NOT broadband. It's YOUR problem you moved to an area that was out of the reach of broadband. It's NOT my responsibility to help fund your need to play WoW at broadband speeds. If your livelihood depends on internet, either move, ar get a T1 line.
And I don't support the corporate bailouts either, though I must say, the entire AIG/Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac was necessary, due to the possible implications of ignoring their failures. | |
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to RayW
Re: Elected Officials have to Go To work
said by RayW :I can waste my money with my elected government or I can waste it with your corporation. Last I checked we have no choice but to pay taxes. At least if I do not like the services provided by a private company I can go tell them to shove it. Since taxes are obligatory, government at all levels must be judicious about how that money is spent.
said by RayW :Corporations do have one advantage over local governments, they are not accountable to the people, and if it looks like they do not get their way, they buy a politician or two and get a law tossed on as a hidden rider at the Federal or State level to do what they want, despite what the people want or what may have been the right thing to do. Government does everything it can to kill private enterprise every day. Why is it surprising when shareholders of private companies try to fight back? There's nothing wrong with looking out for your own interests when you have parasites in government trying to leech off your success.
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"At the moment of conception." | |
John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| reply to pnh102
Re: Elected Officials Must Go
said by pnh102 :Governments have no business providing Internet service at taxpayer expense. There is that little matter of the telcos that took $200 Billion to provide broadband and provided -nothing- in return.
»www.newnetworks.com/ShortSCANDALSummary.htm
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A is A | |
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by John Galt :There is that little matter of the telcos that took $200 Billion to provide broadband and provided -nothing- in return. Which, if it is true, only serves to prove my point that government should not be funding any Internet with tax money.
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"At the moment of conception." | |
John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Please write us a check for the $200 Billion plus interest and all will be forgiven.
Well, kinda...there is that "acting in collusion with the criminal element in the government to wiretap innocent Americans" thing that still needs to be worked out.
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A is A | |
wierdo
join:2001-02-16
Tulsa, OK
 ·Future Nine Corpor..
·Teliax VOIP
| reply to pnh102
Re: Elected Officials have to Go To work
said by pnh102 :Government does everything it can to kill private enterprise every day. You are quite obviously delusional if you actually believe that.
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It's wierdo, not weirdo. Yes, I know that's not the 'proper' spelling of the similar english language word.  | |
RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| reply to a333
Re: Elected Officials Must Go
said by a333 :Government by the people, blah blah blah doesn't mean social welfare. It also doesn't mean pork barrel welfare services that only help raise our national/state level debt. Internet is NOT a utility, buddy. The government is only supposed to help fund UTILITIES, such as water/sewage, and roads, NOT broadband. It's YOUR problem you moved to an area that was out of the reach of broadband. It's NOT my responsibility to help fund your need to play WoW at broadband speeds. If your livelihood depends on internet, either move, ar get a T1 line. And I don't support the corporate bailouts either, though I must say, the entire AIG/Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac was necessary, due to the possible implications of ignoring their failures. You forget one minor issue...the majority of THE PEOPLE here voted to do Utopia. And who do you think started the first utilities as mentioned? Mostly governments. One town I lived in back in the 60's was all muni, the town I live in now is a mix of muni/private for "essential services", another town I lived in was all private except for the lights, roads and protective services.
What is WoW, a porn site? (Since that seems to be what most people making your statements refer to.) I personally use the net mostly for work, school, and research. Plus a bit of chaos watching here.
Internet access/telephone/TV are just a bit more lucrative than power, sewers and trash, that is why the companies can afford to spend all that money to keep the people from being involved.
As far as the financial crisis, that is another issue that is outside this one. Too bad the Senate did not take care of it sooner instead of voting down bills that may have helped and passing dumb rules.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
a333
A hot cup of integrals please
join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY
·Cingular Wireless
·Verizon Online DSL
| Dude, electricity and water/sewage are survival NEEDS. Broadband is NOT. PERIOD...
Tell me ONE thing you cannot do without broadband that is essential to your basic life necessities. If I had to go w/o water/sewage, or electricity for more than a day, I'd probably not survive properly given our current lifestyles. Without broadband, I sure as hell could just get either dialup or use my school's/library's internet.
Government's purpose is NOT to provide luxuries/non-utilities to the general public. It is to protect the damn nation, and provide essential services. As we have seen, gov't is bad at doing even those two. We've been attacked by a couple of bearded men 7 years ago(and we're still a sitting duck), and our healthcare system's a bloody failure. Crime could be lower in MANY cities, and our education system ain't exactly stellar. I'd much rather fix those than allocate taxpayer money to stuff like this. At least they're necessities/important services citizens deserve. Broadband, as I've mentioned, isn't a right. It's YOUR fault you moved to a location that doesn't have enough ROI to justify broadband deployment. Gotta love country living now, eh? As I've said, if your livelihood is on the line, get a T1 or Satellite. Heck, 3G cellular networks have blanket coverage across vast swaths of the States. It's not yer constitutional right to be able to comsume gigagobs of data per month. If you want that right, move to Greyjing or Pyongyang, and enjoy their walled garden flavor of teh interwebs.
And... speaking of Utopia, you people apparently didn't make much of a smart choice there, innit? Apparently, it's now an, ehh, bottomless money pit, incurring losses faster than you can say FAIL... | |
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY | reply to John Galt
That will come from bill payers before stockholders. | |
SSidlov
Other Things On My Mind
Premium
join:2000-03-03
Pompton Lakes, NJ
·Optimum Online
·Cingular Wireless
| reply to a333
The problem is that broadband is becoming a necessity because it carries so much information beyond porn. The rich can afford it and the poor can not. Without broadband and the good things on the net, children find it more difficult to compete later in life and don't learn the skills needed for 'modern life'. This is whole idea behind 'one laptop for every child' but we need this initiative in THIS country too.
Well run governments that provide water, sewer, garbage cleanup and security services (police, rescue and fire) should be able to help all their citizens become productive and give access to the net.
There are school systems that give laptops to kids, there is free access in most school systems and libraries. There is access at the library. But these systems are constrained and do not include the working poor due to limited access hours. | |
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by SSidlov :There are school systems that give laptops to kids ... I heard about that crap. Meanwhile, our school systems continue to graduate children who cannot read, write, or perform even the most basic of skills. Talk about a waste of money.
Whatever happened to teaching the three Rs? If kids graduated smarter, they could get better jobs and buy all the laptops they wanted.
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"At the moment of conception." | |
RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| said by pnh102 :said by SSidlov :There are school systems that give laptops to kids ... I heard about that crap. Meanwhile, our school systems continue to graduate children who cannot read, write, or perform even the most basic of skills. Talk about a waste of money. Whatever happened to teaching the three Rs? If kids graduated smarter, they could get better jobs and buy all the laptops they wanted. Crap?
1. Because social engineers of the public school system have decreed that kids must learn computers in order to be able to fit into Corporate America where most places require the use of computers and the internet to do your job (places where I have worked in the past 20 years anyway).
2. Buses do not wait for kids to finish homework. They arrive just before school starts (if you are lucky) and they leave right after school is out.
3. My daughter (a junior in high school this year) has homework that requires the use of the internet to do research. Granted she can go to the library, but since she has contemporary subjects to research, that requires computer searches on the internet. Plus, the library is about three miles away. We could drive her there but that is so un-green. Plus the computers usually have a long waiting list.
4. The above mentioned daughter is taking three more classes on the computer that she is doing on line to fulfill graduation requirements at school : Japanese language, culinary arts, and computer theory. Oh, and that is in addition to the classes she is taking that fulfill her "major" requirements.
Yes, you are right, having the internet is not necessary for kids today. But looking at posts by many of the folks here, I think they ought to institute a ban on text capable cell phones for anyone who can not demonstrate the ability to put together a sentence in a halfway correct manner and to get most of the words spelled right. (Doctors and engineers are exempt, everyone knows they can not write)
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| reply to a333
said by a333 :Dude, electricity and water/sewage are survival NEEDS. Broadband is NOT. PERIOD... Tell me ONE thing you cannot do without broadband that is essential to your basic life necessities. If I had to go w/o water/sewage, or electricity for more than a day, I'd probably not survive properly given our current lifestyles. Without broadband, I sure as hell could just get either dialup or use my school's/library's internet. Government's purpose is NOT to provide luxuries/non-utilities to the general public. It is to protect the damn nation, and provide essential services. As we have seen, gov't is bad at doing even those two. We've been attacked by a couple of bearded men 7 years ago(and we're still a sitting duck), and our healthcare system's a bloody failure. Crime could be lower in MANY cities, and our education system ain't exactly stellar. I'd much rather fix those than allocate taxpayer money to stuff like this. At least they're necessities/important services citizens deserve. Broadband, as I've mentioned, isn't a right. It's YOUR fault you moved to a location that doesn't have enough ROI to justify broadband deployment. Gotta love country living now, eh? As I've said, if your livelihood is on the line, get a T1 or Satellite. Heck, 3G cellular networks have blanket coverage across vast swaths of the States. It's not yer constitutional right to be able to comsume gigagobs of data per month. If you want that right, move to Greyjing or Pyongyang, and enjoy their walled garden flavor of teh interwebs. And... speaking of Utopia, you people apparently didn't make much of a smart choice there, innit? Apparently, it's now an, ehh, bottomless money pit, incurring losses faster than you can say FAIL... Impressive rant. Utopia, yes, it is a problem money wise. But as you conveniently forget, the Utopia program was crippled by Qwest buying a politician who does not even live near this area (Saint George is at the other end of the state) to push through a bill killing it. Fortunately or unfortunately enough other politicians listened to their voters and it was only crippled.
Before you rant about program problems, at least address WHY those programs have problems.
And as far as not living without electricity or water service for more than a day....I pity you. You obviously have far more problems than your inability to write coherently.
Oh, and the bearded folks you mention? Ummm... wiretapping has short circuited several activities. But you won't hear about them because it is not advantageous to certain folks for details to be known, on all sides of the issue. I was involved peripherally in one of them that could have been nasty, so I know that they are still trying to kill Americans and others.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
a333
A hot cup of integrals please
join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY
·Cingular Wireless
·Verizon Online DSL
2 edits | said by RayW :Impressive rant. Utopia, yes, it is a problem money wise. But as you conveniently forget, the Utopia program was crippled by Qwest buying a politician who does not even live near this area (Saint George is at the other end of the state) to push through a bill killing it. Fortunately or unfortunately enough other politicians listened to their voters and it was only crippled. Before you rant about program problems, at least address WHY those programs have problems. Glad to see you're finally getting warmer. Yes, the reason Utopia FAILED is EXACTLY why we shouldn't have gov't welfare either way. Politicians are INHERENTLY corrupt, and they've shown that they can't make a decision when the have a jug of water and their backside is on fire... Where was FBI/CIA when there were freaking memos circulating MONTHS before 9/11, WARNING SPECIFICALLY that some terrorists were going to hijack airplanes and fly them into strategic targets? Where was common sense when Bush decided to spend trillions on a war based on FALSE intelligence? Gov't has shown that it sucks when it comes to doing even the most basic of it's duties, like averting terrorism, having a reasonable public safety system, providing basic healthcare, or even a good education to children. Heck, they can't even regulate the big "important" corps enough to avoid the mess we're in right now. And you're telling me they should be in charge of providing BROADBAND when all the above problems exist already?
You mention Quest buying your gov't. Why did that happen? Why did your elected officials cuddle up to special interests?
Finally, if your children need broadband to absolutely succeed, MAYBE you should research its availability when you decide to move out of a big city. Lack of certain luxuries is part of living in outskirts. It's all a trade-off. You can't kid yourself into thinking that you can move to the boondocks, and still get all modern amenities like fast broadband.
You say I can't write coherently, apparently you have trouble reading. I used the electricity/water example to show how they're UTILITIES, as we cannot live without them for an extended period of time. I sure as hell can live without broadband. I can just shell out the money for 3G, or satellite, or get a T1 line. By living in a capitalist society like ours, you agree that government involvement in any market must be limited. It's one thing to foster competition and thus force companies to deploy edvanced services. It's a totally different, and socialist idea, to have the gov't itself deploy said services, especially when they have shown that they can't handle money any more responsibly than a 5-year-old.
In a nutshell, the day gov't is deemed capable of providing broadband is the day they stop going to bed with corporations. And you and I KNOW that will NEVER happen in this country.
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Linux: Because a PC is a terrible thing to waste
My Location: /universe/earth/north-america/USA- fsck that!!! | |
RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| said by a333 :cut You are confusing....So you say it is ok for industry to provide bribes to kill any competition, and it is the people's fault if they tell the "government" to go ahead and try to and develop what the industry drags their feet on??? I think you need to have a sanity check, we are talking local vice state or federal, and outside of NYC, Chicago, LA, SF, there is a (usually) large variance in accountability. Utopia was a local project crippled due to state level politics and bribery.
As far as the FBI, the potential for the 9/11 was reported as early as 1999, yes, I know, Bush was still responsible even if he was not sworn in yet. In something like the Federal Gov, you have idiots who say "not found here" and toss it out. As for the rest of your rant, you are getting way off the subject and into federal politics, not local.
And your water/power example was as much of your writing is. I just pointed out that anyone one who could not go longer than a day with out water or power being provide to them has more problems than confusing writing. And consider, at one time electricity was considered a luxury and the local governments first started providing it to their cities since few private concerns could or wanted to. California found out what happens when they had to give up their generating concerns to private industry, they had an energy crisis develop.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
a333
A hot cup of integrals please
join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY
·Cingular Wireless
·Verizon Online DSL
| Tsk tsk, getting testy here, are we?
Read first before getting loose on the keyboard...
I'm saying, and read this very carefully:
Government is very CORRUPT, and has shown time and again that they are very susceptible to special interest groups(I.E the "state level politics" YOU talk about). The bribery and politics you mention are the damn reasons we don't need or want social welfare. If you want that, learn from the Europeans. At least they get Socialism right. When gov't screws up, I foot the bill, whether or not I ever manage to enjoy the deployed services. Taxes are mandatory, as others have mentioned. Thus, I'd much rather not have taxes spent on failing programs such as pretty much all muni-WiFi/FTTH out there. At least when a corporation screws up, it's on THEIR shareholder's money, not mine. Therefore, I could care less.
Also, I said it's the "people's fault" when they do not research broadband availability before the move, if in fact it WAS that important to them. Please don't troll on nonexistent opinions.
And how's the water/power example not valid? According to you, water and power are not utilities? Heh, guess the people affected by Ike didn't need bottled water shipped to them after all, eh? Guess those hospitals affected by Ike don't need electricity? Wow... and you're calling ME confused.
Finally, point out where in my post I was criticizing the Bush administration in particular... I WAS NOT. READ. I said our GOV'T ignored the said memos. NOT BUSH, although he sure as hell shares a part of the blame...
And the first large-scale/successful electrical network was started off by ConEdison, at the Pearl Street station, in Manhattan. It was a purely private enterprise, and remained so to this day, at least here in the city. sure, the prices are regulated, but the NYC gov't never actually built any of the network. same is true for 'most all parts of Long Island/Upstate NY.
My post is DEFINITELY not "off subject". What I'm saying is that budget shortfalls, along with failures of many IMPORTANT programs, plague all levels of gov't, and perhaps we should fix that instead of embarking on overly ambitious, and unnecessary projects. Far from "off subject", by any stretch of imagination.
As to the separation b/w fed/local politics, you just don;t seem to get it. When States have budget shortfalls because of failed programs, where do they go? Definitely not the taxpayers, I'd say. In that case, it's Uncle Sam who has to step in and balance things out. I wouldn't be so quick to separate federal and state politics, as they affect each other pretty noticeably...
You have a choice of capitalism and socialism, but you can't have a pseudo-mix of both. THAT never works out. You can't honestly kid yourself into full-blown gov't-funded FTTH. I'm all for tighter regulatory control of major Telco's and Cable MSO's, the way France has done it. Maybe we wouldn't have needed this Utopia mess if our dear federal gov't had actually ENFORCED the Telecom Act of 1996, instead of letting telco's sell us a Hyundai designed to look like a Mercedes, and letting them screw CLEC's over while having the lube handed to them.
But we blew it, we blew our chance. The execs of Ma Bell laughed their way to the bank with a blank check, while the taxpayer enjoyed their "high speed" DSL. | |
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