how-to block ads
|
-
charitmnacho
@rr.com
| reply to TKJunkMail
Re: Rural General Suckitude
 It's not even just as simple as you either get it or you don't, all of the tv channels I get that are digital are choppy if I don't have the antenna adjusted just right for each channel I watch I have to constantly adjust my rabbit ears or the digital channels break up into little squares and then the screen freezes for minutes at a time, then picks up the signal again for a minute or two then cuts back out. atleast with analog you could still watch the show with out interuptions even though the picture might be a little fuzzy. | |
archaic
@verizon.net | reply to jmn1207
How far are you from the towers? 5 miles? 10? Try over 40. It just doesn't work. | |
systems2000
What? You Say It's Fixed. Hah
join:2001-11-29
Cyberspace
 ·Embarq
| reply to jay_rm
said by jay_rm  :In the little testing I've done, the analog quality would have extra-high suckage. I've seen perfect DTV picture quality with no drop-outs when the equivalent analog channel was so snowy it was no more then a ghosted black & white eye-hurting remnant of itself. Looks to me that the DTV signals need very low S/N to work just great. This could very well be caused by different Multi-Paths between the different frequencies the analog and digital are transmitting on.
--
Personal Theme Song:
RUSH - Mystic Rythms from Power Windows.
Rush Radio Website | |
russotto
join:2000-10-05
Collegeville, PA
| reply to SilverSurfer
Start with the current analog channels. They're all yellow or worse RIGHT NOW, except for the nearby WNJB. That's your baseline for comparison. So right off the bat, you're already going to need more than rabbit ears, EVEN FOR ANALOG.
Post transition, 5 goes to red. 12 and 13 were already red as analog stations. 10 is not red, it is yellow. In the yellow, that location will have two ABCs, two NBCs, two CBSs, two MyNetworkTVs, and a couple of other stations. Just 3dB down and they'll pick up Fox and CW. And note that TVFool is pessimistic: I'm currently picking up a channel predicted to be -110 dBm at my location, in the gray, with a modest-sized antenna. | |
MeanPeepsSuk
Premium
join:2004-11-21
Muddy Field
clubs:
1 edit | reply to russotto
I am at a loss. Are you sure you are typing in 08822, (which I chose at the center of the county to be fair to you)? Maybe that's our disconnect here. Almost all of what you are saying conflicts with what they show.
The 2-13 stations are not at "quite decent signal strengths". Pre they are all in the red zone as I already said: "These signals are weak and hence you may need a high gain antenna on the roof to receive channels at this level and above." At Post, 2,3,4,7,9 become yellow, "These signals are not that strong and hence you may need a medium gain antenna on the second floor or attic to receive channels at this level and above." and 5,10,12,13 are still red.
edit: added word "are" | |
russotto
join:2000-10-05
Collegeville, PA
| reply to MeanPeepsSuk
said by MeanPeepsSuk :Come on now, this is getting silly. If you looked at the chart none of those, with the exception of 29, broadcast now strong enough to reach to the area in question either because they are already getting and are served by (analog #) 2-13. Phila 17 is available. Phila 29 is available. The Allentown stations are available. Phila 57 is barely so at the zip code you gave, but is available elsewhere in the county.
The area still loses their digital equivalent of 2-13 which is what you questioned and disbelieved.
The area does NOT lose their digital equivalent of 2-13.
Post transition, the zip code you gave gets WABC-DT (NY 7.1), WPVI-DT(PHL 6.1), WCAU-DT(NBC-Phila 10.1), KYW-DT(ABC-Phila 3.1), WCBS-DT(NY, 2.1), WWOR-DT(MNT NJ, 9.1), WNBC-DT (NY, 4.1), and WNYW(Fox-NY, 5.1). All at quite decent signal strengths. | |
Morac
join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
 ·Comcast
| reply to russotto
said by russotto :Try again. Philadelphia FOX is WTXF-29, Philadelphia CW is WPSG-57, Philadelphia MNT is WPHL-17. WLVT-39 is PBS out of Allentown, 25 miles away. Some of those stations are currently broadcasting at a different power than they will be after the switchover.
Check out »www.tvfool.com/ and look at the transmit powers for before and after Feb 17, 2009.
Here's just a few examples though:
WTXF-DT currently transmitting at 995.49 kW on channel 42, will be transmitting at 638.06 on the same channel. The analog station broadcasts at 5000 kW. The net result will be that some people who currently receive WTXF-DT will lose it after the switchover.
WPSG-DT is currently 249.83 kW and will be at 799.47 on same channel. The net result will be that the range will be greater after the switchover. Analog transmits at 26.00 kW.
WPHL-DT is currently 342.99 on channel 52 and will be 756.28 on channel 17 which means it will basically be the strongest station coming out of Philly after the switchover. Analog is currently at 2340 kW on channel 17.
In many cases the new digital signal will be a lot weaker than the analog one will be, but it doesn't need to be as strong since a digital signal either comes in or it doesn't. So people who received a very snow analog channel won't get the new digital channel, but people who got a somewhat snowy analog channel will get a clear digital one.
It really depends on how good your tuner is. My TiVo S3 can tune in OTA stations with as low as 18 dB signal strength reliably. Error correction in the signal helps as well.
--
The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired. | |
MeanPeepsSuk
Premium
join:2004-11-21
Muddy Field
clubs:
| reply to russotto
said by russotto :said by MeanPeepsSuk :I didn't say there were not other channels. What I did say was that they couldn't get the current analog 2-13. The focus on those is the fact that those contain the network channels (CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX), local Philly/NYC and 1 PBS station. Anything above that, that you listed, is currently either 50 miles away or more and/or PBS stations (4); and/or foreign language. One I couldn't even find. Try again. Philadelphia FOX is WTXF-29, Philadelphia CW is WPSG-57, Philadelphia MNT is WPHL-17. WLVT-39 is PBS out of Allentown, 25 miles away. WBPH-60 and WFMZ-69 are also out of Allentown (and in English). The people Teletruth are using as examples aren't getting these stations now. Know why? Because they are using an antenna that has been inadequate for decades, that's why! UHF broadcasting started in 1952! I don't think you realize, but you are actually proving the point. That this area would need some kind of mounted antenna at the very least.
Of course they need a mounted antenna, they're 40 miles away from the nearest stations! I'm about 20 miles away and I need an antenna to get decent picture on the analog stations. Come on now, this is getting silly. If you looked at the chart none of those, with the exception of 29, broadcast now strong enough to reach to the area in question either because they are already getting and are served by (analog #) 2-13.
The area still loses their digital equivalent of 2-13 which is what you questioned and disbelieved.
If you forgot, the news item is "Digital Switch Creating Broadcast Coverage Gaps". If you don't believe that, I am not going to argue it with you.
At least at this point, you agree that a new/specific roof mount antenna would be needed as opposed to just a little dtv converter alone, which is the point. | |
Mac Bridger
Beat It Again Bill
Premium
join:2001-01-11
Smithton, PA
clubs: | reply to jay_rm
Some stations are running at reduced power right now. Some aren't even broadcasting... | |
russotto
join:2000-10-05
Collegeville, PA
| reply to MeanPeepsSuk
said by MeanPeepsSuk :I didn't say there were not other channels. What I did say was that they couldn't get the current analog 2-13. The focus on those is the fact that those contain the network channels (CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX), local Philly/NYC and 1 PBS station. Anything above that, that you listed, is currently either 50 miles away or more and/or PBS stations (4); and/or foreign language. One I couldn't even find. Try again. Philadelphia FOX is WTXF-29, Philadelphia CW is WPSG-57, Philadelphia MNT is WPHL-17. WLVT-39 is PBS out of Allentown, 25 miles away. WBPH-60 and WFMZ-69 are also out of Allentown (and in English). The people Teletruth are using as examples aren't getting these stations now. Know why? Because they are using an antenna that has been inadequate for decades, that's why! UHF broadcasting started in 1952!
I don't think you realize, but you are actually proving the point. That this area would need some kind of mounted antenna at the very least.
Of course they need a mounted antenna, they're 40 miles away from the nearest stations! I'm about 20 miles away and I need an antenna to get decent picture on the analog stations. | |
MeanPeepsSuk
Premium
join:2004-11-21
Muddy Field
clubs:
| reply to russotto
said by russotto :said by MeanPeepsSuk :I am sorry that I was confusing with my statement of "currently served broadcast channels (2-13)". "Currently served" referred to the analog channels currently available. "2-13" is their analog channels now, not their digital ones. After converting to digital, the digital equivalents of 2-13 were no longer available. That is CBS-NY, CBS-PA, FOX-NY, ABC-PA, ABC-NY, WOR-NY. CW-NY, PBS-NY. The currently available signals in Hunterdon County are not only 2-13. They are 2-13,17,29,31,39,41,45,52,60,69,etc.
I didn't say there were not other channels. What I did say was that they couldn't get the current analog 2-13. The focus on those is the fact that those contain the network channels (CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX), local Philly/NYC and 1 PBS station. Anything above that, that you listed, is currently either 50 miles away or more and/or PBS stations (4); and/or foreign language. One I couldn't even find.
said by russotto :If someone there is only getting 2-13, it's a red flag that they have only a VHF antenna, which is only capable of getting 2-13. The only digital signal currently on VHF is WNJB 58.1, on RF 8. And lo and behold, that's what "teletruth's" report shows -- no digitals except 58.1.
I don't think you realize, but you are actually proving the point. That this area would need some kind of mounted antenna at the very least. This is a long shot from the FCC claiming to the public is that all would be needed is a digital converter to add to their current setup. If these people did have a roof antenna (as they said) and it didn't work, shouldn't it according to the FCC? You know as well as I that they would need to have a roof mount AND the right kind of antenna.
If you still don't believe that, you are welcome to go to »www.tvfool.com and enter the zip code 08822, which is for Flemington, NJ (at near center of the county to be fair). It's results show that only 2 stations have LOS. TEL: Spanish speaking and PBS. 2 more needed a medium gain roof mount antenna, and the rest were in the red zone requiring high gain antenna or worse. You'll also note 2.1; 4.1; 5.1; 7.1; 9.1; 11.1; 13.1 exist and are all in the red zone.
What is also significant is that saying Hunterdon County is "rural fringe" likens them to be just the small minority in the heartland or something, when in fact they are part of 2 metro areas. The entire country does not live only in metro areas, and/or have LOS to a tower to have a seamless transition. | |
wispalord
join:2007-09-20
House Springs, MO | reply to jmn1207
ya no doubt i lived 60miles south of STL in the boonies and i just put my 20year old bunny ears out side and it works fine, so ppl with a out door antennea should be fine | |
russotto
join:2000-10-05
Collegeville, PA
| reply to MeanPeepsSuk
said by MeanPeepsSuk :I am sorry that I was confusing with my statement of "currently served broadcast channels (2-13)". "Currently served" referred to the analog channels currently available. "2-13" is their analog channels now, not their digital ones. After converting to digital, the digital equivalents of 2-13 were no longer available. That is CBS-NY, CBS-PA, FOX-NY, ABC-PA, ABC-NY, WOR-NY. CW-NY, PBS-NY. The currently available signals in Hunterdon County are not only 2-13. They are 2-13,17,29,31,39,41,45,52,60,69,etc. If someone there is only getting 2-13, it's a red flag that they have only a VHF antenna, which is only capable of getting 2-13. The only digital signal currently on VHF is WNJB 58.1, on RF 8. And lo and behold, that's what "teletruth's" report shows -- no digitals except 58.1. | |
MeanPeepsSuk
Premium
join:2004-11-21
Muddy Field
clubs:
| reply to russotto
said by russotto :said by MeanPeepsSuk :In the case of the testers in Hunterdon County, NJ (~40 miles to NYC and Philly), it was "You don't". The signal strength is just not enough with digital where there once was with analog. For these testers, there was 100% loss of all currently served broadcast channels (2-13). Yeah. Because there are no digital stations currently transmitting on 2-13. Talk about a rigged test... I am sorry that I was confusing with my statement of "currently served broadcast channels (2-13)". "Currently served" referred to the analog channels currently available. "2-13" is their analog channels now, not their digital ones.
After converting to digital, the digital equivalents of 2-13 were no longer available. That is CBS-NY, CBS-PA, FOX-NY, ABC-PA, ABC-NY, WOR-NY. CW-NY, PBS-NY. | |
MeanPeepsSuk
Premium
join:2004-11-21
Muddy Field
clubs:
| reply to openbox9
said by openbox9 :That's where we diverge in expectation. I don't believe the converter coupons should have been handed out in the first place. I believe that if consumers desire to watch television, they should bear the full cost of doing so, to include purchasing a TV, antenna, tuner, coax, couch to sit on, etc. I don't believe the government should be in the business of subsidizing our TV viewing habits. I respect your opinion even though we disagree. I understand what you are saying about "subsidizing our TV viewing habbits", but I don't see the basic broadcast channels as really useful as entertainment but news and information (YMMV in your area).
What floats in the air should be readily and easily accessible by the people. The FCC didn't build the system nor funds it ... Yet they can mandate it's changed and make a butt load of money off of it. Now they expect the people to shoulder the cost while they profit. I wouldn't have a problem with the change over if it really did work as they are touting, and it didn't put such a financial burden on people who really rely on it with no other means. But, since they are.. The FCC should either make it work *right* or cover the costs otherwise.
I know we differ on this.. Just sayin'
said by openbox9 :My pleasure. I enjoy meaningful discussion instead of the typical typical finger pointing and name calling that tends to be the norm around here. Back at ya. | |
jay_rm
join:2002-04-12
Netville
 ·Fox Valley Internet
 ·ViaTalk
| reply to TKJunkMail
said by TKJunkMail :The issue is that the digital signal has a sharp cutoff where you either get the signal or not. The analog signal would degrade over distance but still provide a viewable channel, even if the quality sucked. In the little testing I've done, the analog quality would have extra-high suckage. I've seen perfect DTV picture quality with no drop-outs when the equivalent analog channel was so snowy it was no more then a ghosted black & white eye-hurting remnant of itself. Looks to me that the DTV signals need very low S/N to work just great.
Maybe in some markets the DTV stations are running at reduced power before the transition date ? ? ?
This exact same argument was put forth back in the good 'ol analog cellular days. "My digital phone cuts out all of a sudden where I used to have analog coverage !" Truth be told, the analog coverage was so static-ridden and broken up it would take an experienced intercept operator to get any intel out of it "What ? What ?? Say that again - YOU'RE WHAT... ?!?!?!!?"
Welcome to the Digital Communications Revolution - where it either works or it doesn't. 
--
3500/512 5.7 GHz Motorola Canopy Wireless; FoxValley.net
"Peace through superior firepower" | |
tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
 ·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..
| reply to TKJunkMail
said by TKJunkMail : The coupons, as long as the money is available, were available to all - even those with satellite & cable. I got two for myself and two for my parents house. Thanks for the clarification. I was not aware of that. I though to qualify for coupon you had to be dependant on OTA.
Pays to read the fine print. There are 22.25 million coupons available to anyone. With an additional 11.25 million limited to those who have no other access except OTA.
»https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx
/tom | |
russotto
join:2000-10-05
Collegeville, PA
| reply to MeanPeepsSuk
said by MeanPeepsSuk :In the case of the testers in Hunterdon County, NJ (~40 miles to NYC and Philly), it was "You don't". The signal strength is just not enough with digital where there once was with analog. For these testers, there was 100% loss of all currently served broadcast channels (2-13). Yeah. Because there are no digital stations currently transmitting on 2-13. Talk about a rigged test... | |
TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| reply to tschmidt
said by tschmidt :The only people eligible for coupons are those who relay on over the air. If you have Cable or Satellite no coupon for you. Plus households are limited to max of two coupons. The coupons, as long as the money is available, were available to all - even those with satellite & cable. I got two for myself and two for my parents house. I use one of mine on a TV in the garage where I didn't want to run cable to it. The other is just a backup if cable is out for any reason.
And my parents have cable, but not on their TVs in the bedrooms.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..
| reply to wcnghj
said by wcnghj :I wonder if we could get a big enough antenna to get signal 70 miles away. 70 miles may require Herculean effort, unless you or transmitter are very high.
Check out the TVfool site and see what estimated signal strength is. If estimated signal is better then about -110 dBm you have a chance. Try modeling at different heights. But putting up a tower is expensive. At that distance weather will be a factor so no matter how good the antenna you may not be able to get good signal 24/7/365.
Good Luck
/tom | |
|
