mr_slick
join:2003-05-22
Lynnwood, WA
| reply to Oleg
Re: Everyone has cable
I don't-- OTA all the way!
I do have FiOS Internet however 
**actually i havent had cable for about 15 years once i discovered the content choices over the air, on dvds and via the internet are far superior to paying for cable
i always just surfed through the channels with cable anyways (hoping to find something good!)
--i would however reconsider cable if they offered an al-a-cart service of just a few channels (like 2 or 3!) |
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thecptrgod
join:2008-04-03
Madison, WI
1 edit | reply to Oleg
Re: Rural General Suckitude
said by Oleg  :This days everyone has digital cable or satellite anyway. Um.. not everyone. I still watch TV over-the-air with rabbit ears. Oh and I'm IN Madison and still have problems with the DTVs here. (Approx. 10 miles from the 15/57 tower and approx. 12 from the "Supertower.")
-Adam |
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openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
 ·AT&T Southeast
| reply to MeanPeepsSuk
said by MeanPeepsSuk :Expecting anyone to invest one dollar beyond the reasonable converter is ridiculous in this economy, especially to the people most effected. That's where we diverge in expectation. I don't believe the converter coupons should have been handed out in the first place. I believe that if consumers desire to watch television, they should bear the full cost of doing so, to include purchasing a TV, antenna, tuner, coax, couch to sit on, etc. I don't believe the government should be in the business of subsidizing our TV viewing habits.said by MeanPeepsSuk :Thanks for the dialog. My pleasure. I enjoy meaningful discussion instead of the typical typical finger pointing and name calling that tends to be the norm around here. |
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Mactron
el camino Real
Premium
join:2001-12-16
CM94sv
| reply to Oleg
said by Oleg : This days everyone has digital cable or satellite anyway. This These days everyone has YOU have digital cable or satellite anyway.
Corrected. Lucky you... 
--
If only the Verizon CSRs worked this well.  |
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tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
 ·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..
1 edit | reply to TKJunkMail
said by TKJunkMail : And I wouldn't be surprised if the FCC also allowed adjustments in transmitted power so that the digital stations get a further reach I agree there will be likely be changes allowed after Feb 2009 as stations/customers get some real world DTV experience. The real test will not be Feb 18, 2009 but spring of 2009 when trees leaf out. Folks that had good TV reception in winter may lose it in summer.
Currently with simulcasting of analog and digital TV bands things are pretty crowded. After analog goes dark, even with loss of channels 52-69, band will likely be less congested in most regions. That means interference will be less of a problem making it viable to modify signal strength.
Something many people may not be aware of is customer signal strength is a combination of many factors: 1) Transmit power, 2) Antenna gain, 3) Distance 4) Terrain 5) Multipath and other impairments.
We tend to think of TV Stations as being onmidirectional – transmitting equal signal in all directions but that is rarely the case. Stations design antenna to have difference gain in different directions. It is a lot more cost effective to double receive signal strength (3 dB change) by tweaking antenna radiation pattern to change Effective Radiated Power (ERP) then to double transmit power. There are limits to this of course but it is not just a matter of cranking up transmit power with commensurate increase in utility bill.
/tom |
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tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..
| reply to openbox9
said by openbox9 :You can get a very good quality antenna for a lot less than $300. Also, with a good antenna, depending on the length of your coax run, you may not really need an amp. LoS, environment, transmitter elevation and power, quality of receiver and antenna, etc. all play into OTA reception. If you are installing an outdoor antenna obviously cost will vary widely. I'm in process of doing exactly that. Material cost alone turned out to be just over $500. Separate UHF, VHF and onmidirections FM antennas, rotator, preamp, hardware, #6 copper wire for ground etc. If antenna is professionally installed I assume labor will be in the $200-300 range. Luckily for us this is a replacement of existing outdoor antenna so inside wiring does not have to be modified. If inside wiring had to be installed bill would be a lot higher.
/tom |
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tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..
| reply to openbox9
said by openbox9 : I don't believe the converter coupons should have been handed out in the first place. I don't believe the government should be in the business of subsidizing our TV viewing habits. I don't have a problem with the converter box coupon program. Keep in mind government made a lot of money auctioning off channels 52-69. That auction was made possible by the transition to digital TV. Seems reasonable that some of that profit go back to people to help defray cost of conversion.
The only people eligible for coupons are those who relay on over the air. If you have Cable or Satellite no coupon for you. Plus households are limited to max of two coupons.
After a kind of rocky start coupon program seems to be working well.
/tom |
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openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| reply to tschmidt
Yes, costs can vary widely. I'm fortunate enough that all of the channels I care about are in the same general direction and are transmitted in the VHF High and UHF frequency ranges. My 4228 serves me well. |
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tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..
| said by openbox9 :My 4228 serves me well. From my research Channel Master 4228 seems to be the preferred fringe UHF antenna. That is the one we plan to use. In many cases after Feb 2009 the only VHF stations will be VHF high (channels 7-13) The 4228, while marketed as a UHF only antenna, works quite well on VHF high. The 2008/9 Channel Master catalog indicates they are coming out with an improved version of the 4228 later this year. Lighter and marketed as a VHF high/UHF antenna.
We are using a Winegard YA-1713 (VHF high) as after Feb 2009 there are no VHF low channels in our area. Most of the UHF stations we are interested in are in Boston and VHF in NH. By offsetting VHF and UHF antenna we get both at the same time. Only need to use rotator for couple of orphan station. Rotators are a big inconvenience with multiple TVs and DVRs.
Given that we are about 45 miles from Boston I also installed an outdoor FM antenna Winegard HD-6010.
/tom |
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openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA | Do you know that you need to amp your antenna, or are you assuming that you need to? Long cable run? |
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tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..
| said by openbox9 :Do you know that you need to amp your antenna, or are you assuming that you need to? Long cable run? Antenna preamp has two purposes: 1) Make up for loss between antenna and TV and 2) improve TV noise figure. We are using an Channel Master 7777.
In our case total UHF loss is around 16 dB (mostly due to 8-way splitter). The other benefit of antenna preamp is that a good one will have a better noise figure then TV. Noise figure places a bound on how small of a signal TV can recover. The lower the noise figure the better. For example typical TV receivers have noise figure in the 6-8 dB range. The 7777 preamp noise figure is only 2 dB for UHF. That means when using a mast mounted preamp TV will work correctly with a signal that is 6 dB (4 times smaller) then when TV connected directly to the antenna. That is a lot of bang for the buck.
The reason pre-amps are mast mounted it to amplify signal before it is reduced by cable loss. The amp cannot create a signal (only the antenna can).
/tom |
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Morac
join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
 ·Comcast
1 edit | reply to StudioTech
said by StudioTech :Actually, in Philly, it's WPVI-DT (the ABC station) that's moving their digital signal back to VHF-Lo, not KYW-DT. Oops, you're right. That's actually worse since WPVI-DT doesn't come in very well currently. I shudder to think of what it will be like after the switchover. |
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wcnghj
join:2008-05-01 | reply to tschmidt
I would switch to DTV if we could get signal. I wonder if we could get a big enough antenna to get signal 70 miles away. |
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openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
·AT&T Southeast
| reply to tschmidt
You aren't going to improve the SNR with an amp, but you will increase the signal level (along with the noise) if you have a week signal. I understand the concept of amplification. I was merely asking if you are assuming you need an amp or you've verified that you need an amp. The fact that you're using an 8-way splitter answers my question.
Splitting hairs, but technically speaking the antenna doesn't create a signal, it merely receives a signal. |
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tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..
| reply to wcnghj
said by wcnghj :I wonder if we could get a big enough antenna to get signal 70 miles away. 70 miles may require Herculean effort, unless you or transmitter are very high.
Check out the TVfool site and see what estimated signal strength is. If estimated signal is better then about -110 dBm you have a chance. Try modeling at different heights. But putting up a tower is expensive. At that distance weather will be a factor so no matter how good the antenna you may not be able to get good signal 24/7/365.
Good Luck
/tom |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| reply to tschmidt
said by tschmidt :The only people eligible for coupons are those who relay on over the air. If you have Cable or Satellite no coupon for you. Plus households are limited to max of two coupons. The coupons, as long as the money is available, were available to all - even those with satellite & cable. I got two for myself and two for my parents house. I use one of mine on a TV in the garage where I didn't want to run cable to it. The other is just a backup if cable is out for any reason.
And my parents have cable, but not on their TVs in the bedrooms.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? |
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russotto
join:2000-10-05
Collegeville, PA
| reply to MeanPeepsSuk
said by MeanPeepsSuk :In the case of the testers in Hunterdon County, NJ (~40 miles to NYC and Philly), it was "You don't". The signal strength is just not enough with digital where there once was with analog. For these testers, there was 100% loss of all currently served broadcast channels (2-13). Yeah. Because there are no digital stations currently transmitting on 2-13. Talk about a rigged test... |
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tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..
| reply to TKJunkMail
said by TKJunkMail : The coupons, as long as the money is available, were available to all - even those with satellite & cable. I got two for myself and two for my parents house. Thanks for the clarification. I was not aware of that. I though to qualify for coupon you had to be dependant on OTA.
Pays to read the fine print. There are 22.25 million coupons available to anyone. With an additional 11.25 million limited to those who have no other access except OTA.
»https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx
/tom |
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jay_rm
join:2002-04-12
Netville
·Fox Valley Internet
 ·ViaTalk
| reply to TKJunkMail
said by TKJunkMail :The issue is that the digital signal has a sharp cutoff where you either get the signal or not. The analog signal would degrade over distance but still provide a viewable channel, even if the quality sucked. In the little testing I've done, the analog quality would have extra-high suckage. I've seen perfect DTV picture quality with no drop-outs when the equivalent analog channel was so snowy it was no more then a ghosted black & white eye-hurting remnant of itself. Looks to me that the DTV signals need very low S/N to work just great.
Maybe in some markets the DTV stations are running at reduced power before the transition date ? ? ?
This exact same argument was put forth back in the good 'ol analog cellular days. "My digital phone cuts out all of a sudden where I used to have analog coverage !" Truth be told, the analog coverage was so static-ridden and broken up it would take an experienced intercept operator to get any intel out of it "What ? What ?? Say that again - YOU'RE WHAT... ?!?!?!!?"
Welcome to the Digital Communications Revolution - where it either works or it doesn't.
--
3500/512 5.7 GHz Motorola Canopy Wireless; FoxValley.net
"Peace through superior firepower" |
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MeanPeepsSuk
Premium
join:2004-11-21
Muddy Field
clubs:
| reply to openbox9
said by openbox9 :That's where we diverge in expectation. I don't believe the converter coupons should have been handed out in the first place. I believe that if consumers desire to watch television, they should bear the full cost of doing so, to include purchasing a TV, antenna, tuner, coax, couch to sit on, etc. I don't believe the government should be in the business of subsidizing our TV viewing habits. I respect your opinion even though we disagree. I understand what you are saying about "subsidizing our TV viewing habbits", but I don't see the basic broadcast channels as really useful as entertainment but news and information (YMMV in your area).
What floats in the air should be readily and easily accessible by the people. The FCC didn't build the system nor funds it ... Yet they can mandate it's changed and make a butt load of money off of it. Now they expect the people to shoulder the cost while they profit. I wouldn't have a problem with the change over if it really did work as they are touting, and it didn't put such a financial burden on people who really rely on it with no other means. But, since they are.. The FCC should either make it work *right* or cover the costs otherwise.
I know we differ on this.. Just sayin'
said by openbox9 :My pleasure. I enjoy meaningful discussion instead of the typical typical finger pointing and name calling that tends to be the norm around here. Back at ya. |
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