Topic 'Re: It's all about the dollar!' in forum '' - dslreports.com

Re: It's all about the dollar!

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 06:25:42 EDT

pianotech posted : Fair enough. You do raise good, plausible points. :)

Re: It's all about the dollar!

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 04:58:03 EDT

funchords posted :

said by pianotech:

Sorry, I disagree.

No need to apologize. My position on this is not solid.

said by pianotech:

If a company is doing business in China only on the condition of censoring as the Chinese authorities please, how does that qualify as American exposure to the Chinese people? If, for instance, a Chinese citizen searches Google for "Tienneman Square" and finds absolutely nothing about the protest movement and subsequent government crackdown, that is simply an American company doing the Chinese government's bidding. For profit.

Well, Yoogle or Gahoo make nothing for 0 search results. Their stock in trade is locating the websites that have that information. There is no profit in "0 results" (and if it happens too often, they'll lose customers).

said by pianotech:

How does this serve to "further the spread of freedom and democracy?"

Because if the filters catch even 30% (made up number) of the traffic they'd like to catch, the remaining 70% does get through. Even if the filters were 70% effective, how do you construct a filter that would block pages that convey the ideals of freedom and democracy without actually using one of the targeted words?

One metaphor-style example is the Voice of America, a set of government High-Frequency radio stations heard around the world that convey what essentially is the "propaganda" of the USA to countries where our message is restricted. Many of these countries jam the VOA, but the sheer number of stations and the funny tricks that tropospheric bounces play mean that a VOA station can usually be heard despite attempts to jam it.

I really do respect your position on this, and I'm not sure that I'm right in the long run. For now, I think that it still furthers our goals to be in these markets with the restrictions that are faced.
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Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 19:34:46 EDT

pianotech posted :

I don't see that.

If we held companies responsible to US democracy ideals in China, then their choice would be

1. Refuse to do any business in China based on their corporate principles, thus offering no American exposure to the Chinese people -- end result, no business in China

2. Be closed down by the Chinese government for failing to follow their laws, thus offering no American exposure to the Chinese people -- end result, no business in China

Net result -- it furthers the spread of freedom and democracy to do business there, meeting their people, showing civility despite our freedoms, and breaking-down misconceptions and preconceptions.

Sorry, I disagree. If a company is doing business in China only on the condition of censoring as the Chinese authorities please, how does that qualify as American exposure to the Chinese people? If, for instance, a Chinese citizen searches Google for "Tienneman Square" and finds absolutely nothing about the protest movement and subsequent government crackdown, that is simply an American company doing the Chinese government's bidding. For profit.

How does this serve to "further the spread of freedom and democracy?"
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Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 19:05:58 EDT

funchords posted :

said by pianotech:

In a word, yes. One expects China's communist leaders to suppress information in order to oppress their citizens.

What we have here is a company that is helping China's leader do this by choosing profits over principal. You don't see that?

Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 17:16:22 EDT

pianotech posted :

said by ThrowDemsOut:

said by karlmarx:

So let me see if I have this right? The problem with China isn't their own Communist leaders who are oppressing their own people, but the US capitalists.

Through a Glass Darkly.

In a word, yes. One expects China's communist leaders to suppress information in order to oppress their citizens.

What we have here is a company that is helping China's leader do this by choosing profits over principal. You don't see that?

Google did the same thing as a "condition" of doing business in China. Would it not have been better to simply choose not to do business there? I think so. That's bad for business though....
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Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 15:30:10 EDT

anon posted : Communists? You mean the people who sent Chilean socialists seeking refuge in the Chinese embassy to Pinochet's torture chambers? You mean the third largest backer of the Royal Nepal Army behind Washington and London? You mean people who interfered with socialist revolutions throughout Africa due to some factional war with Moscow? You mean people who routinely support the most right wing parties and leaders in Hong Kong and Taiwan? You mean the fuckers who tipped Afghanistan's balance of power against reform and positive social change by choosing to back the reactionary Mujahideen insurgency through the 70s and 80s?

Beijing is Marxist, is not communist, and is not even socialist.

Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 15:02:21 EDT

anon posted : Agreed. That's why I refuse to respect copyright laws: They can bribe the government to make them more repressive and more all-encompassing whenever the fuck they want whereas we don't have the opportunity to counterbalance Disney, Sony, Nintendo, and the RIAA.

Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 14:17:04 EDT

N3OGH posted : Yeah, and no one on the left takes money from corporations. :uhh:
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Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 13:58:46 EDT

pnh102 posted :

said by karlmarx:

The problem, quite simply, is that the US Capitalist ENABLE the chinese communist to oppress their own people.

That's silly.

China has done things its own way for quite some time now, regardless of outside pressure. The only way China will ever change is if it comes from within.

If you want a comparison, go look at Cuba. We do almost no business with them, and they are a small scale version of China.
--
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Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 13:48:16 EDT

JSY posted :

said by karlmarx:

The problem, quite simply, is that the US Capitalist ENABLE the chinese communist to oppress their own people.

I was going to post about your hogwash but then I noticed your username... HAHA yes, please tell me more about how the capitalistic society should work since your mentor was so well versed in it. Don't be so harsh on China - it's the last major nation that has any semblance of your mentor's principles.

Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 13:46:55 EDT

funchords posted :

said by kamm:

Very true tho the right is prone to this due to their dependence on corporate money.

Perhaps, but the corporate money doesn't really care how it buys influence, the money to watch is also the lobbying money.

Take the EFF. Our major broadband companies EACH spend more on lobbying in just one quarter than the EFF spends in an entire year (checks true for both Comcast and AT&T). That's a lot of face time, and it vastly outguns face time with individual constituents and grass-roots lobbyists that try to represent them.

These Congress-critters can't walk two feet without tripping over a corporate lobbyist who essentially represent zero American voters.

Maybe lobbyists should get face time on Tuesday and Thursday mornings before 10:30 and that all lobbying of any kind must be done in a pre-disclosed public place. Private meetings should be reserved for "U.S." (us) with our own reps. That might fix some of this nonsense. (Beats me if that's a crazy idea...)
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Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 13:19:35 EDT

funchords posted :

said by karlmarx:

The problem, quite simply, is that the US Capitalist ENABLE the chinese communist to oppress their own people. We don't really care WHAT kind of government we sell our stuff to, we don't care how badly it screws middle america by outsourcing our jobs. The only thing that this administration cares about is making the rich, even richer.

Yeah, but think through it.

First off, any US business in China has to obey Chinese law -- even the ones we disagree with; just as any Chinese business in the US has to obey our law. Neither would have it any other way.

Any place we outsource too many jobs to is going becomes less competitive for future outsourced jobs. That's what happened in Bangalore, India -- in just a few short years, their labor costs shot high enough to make jobs move back.

Meanwhile, we tend to add 1.5 million jobs per year, with the exception of 2002 and 2008. Over 5 years, the national average after-tax income grows 20%. So where do these fat-cats live? Sure, most are in the northeast, but the south and the plains gained quite well. Wyoming had the biggest increase -- nearly 40% in the past 5 years. Louisiana had 35% growth and Oaklahoma 30%.


Region          2003      2007
New England   $32,993   $40,066
Mideast        31,358    38,321
Great Lakes    27,818    31,902
Plains         27,477    32,224
Southeast      25,577    30,781
Southwest      25,945    31,926
Rocky Mountain 26,771    31,812
Far West       29,256    35,320
 
United States  28,061    33,619

(to see this, go to »www.bea.gov/bea/regional/spi/def···=summary and
choose the "Per capita disposable personal income" for 2003 and 2007.)

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Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 13:03:52 EDT

N3OGH posted : And makes you totally OT!

Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 13:03:36 EDT

DaveDude posted :

said by karlmarx:

The US doesn't really CARE about freedom, or democracy, or any of those talking points the republicans keep bringing up. The ONLY thing that matters to the government is the almighty corporate dollar. So WHAT if china is using US technologies to oppress their own citizens, as long as we get paid, all is good. We even outsource all our jobs over there, but the fat cat executives and corrupt wall street pigs still get their new ferarri's and beach houses. Capitalism without concerns for the consequences, that's what REAL american patriots support.

This message was approved by John McCain.

This is the most incoherent thing i have read in a long time. Does the space shuttle going up cause it to rain as well ? Oh did you forget how the US has helped people throughout the world. Remember the earthquake in Sumatra. Karl i think you need to move to communist country and truely experience the joy.
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Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 13:03:06 EDT

kamm posted :

said by jmn1207:

The government is an extension of our corporations it seems. They are partners in US, Inc. Most of the people of the US do care about freedom and democracy. Those talking points coming from both republicans and democrats are shallow and worthless. It's the actions from both parties that indicate to me that neither represent most of us in a meaningful, honest way.

Capitalism is still the best option, when it is not being abused and left thoroughly unfettered. It is the power-crazed few that have little or no scrupulous qualities that are destroying many of the monumental efforts and sacrifices that helped to establish this great nation. This notion that we must always expand and grow our businesses no matter the consequences is just ridiculous and it needs to be regulated as was originally intended when this country was born.

Clearly our politicians are not doing their jobs and have abandoned their civic duties and responsibilities. And this has nothing to do with an elephant or a donkey pinned to a person's lapel. And it is not something that is strictly a phenomenon of the policies of the US. It is a global issue, as can be confirmed by this Skype story.

Very true tho the right is prone to this due to their dependence on corporate money.
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Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:54:53 EDT

jmn1207 posted :

said by N3OGH:

Two wrongs obviously don't make right.

No, a bunch of wrongs make the right.

Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:50:58 EDT

N3OGH posted : Two wrongs obviously don't make right.

Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:46:32 EDT

kamm posted :

said by quatrix:

Is this another one of your justifications for stealing?

You mean when CEOs steal, now even from the tax coffers?

Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:36:08 EDT

quatrix posted : Is this another one of your justifications for stealing?

Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:05:05 EDT

jmn1207 posted :

Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:00:48 EDT

karlmarx posted : The problem, quite simply, is that the US Capitalist ENABLE the chinese communist to oppress their own people. We don't really care WHAT kind of government we sell our stuff to, we don't care how badly it screws middle america by outsourcing our jobs. The only thing that this administration cares about is making the rich, even richer.

In 20 years, the AVERAGE CEO Salary has gone from 1.5 million, to over 18 million. In worker terms, it went from 25 workers to 478 workers. THAT is the fat cat's getting fatter, and the rest of us getting screwed.
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Re: It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:54:57 EDT

ThrowDemsOut posted :

said by karlmarx:

So let me see if I have this right? The problem with China isn't their own Communist leaders who are oppressing their own people, but the US capitalists.

Through a Glass Darkly.
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It's all about the dollar!

Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:09:36 EDT

karlmarx posted : The US doesn't really CARE about freedom, or democracy, or any of those talking points the republicans keep bringing up. The ONLY thing that matters to the government is the almighty corporate dollar. So WHAT if china is using US technologies to oppress their own citizens, as long as we get paid, all is good. We even outsource all our jobs over there, but the fat cat executives and corrupt wall street pigs still get their new ferarri's and beach houses. Capitalism without concerns for the consequences, that's what REAL american patriots support.

This message was approved by John McCain.
--
The happiest countries are the most secular. The struggle AGAINST corporations is the struggle FOR humanity!