IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC
edit:
October 4th, @09:33AM
|  Wasteful Channel Lineup means fewer HD Channels?
In the D.C. market, I've noticed that Comcast has a repetitive channel lineup....
For example,
HBO HD appears twice in the lineup... 228 and 300
Movies on Demand 315 and 366
Showtime HD 238 and 339
HD on Demand 216 and 247 and 487 and 488
AMC appears on 53 and 138
Why does Comcast do this? At the very least they could reduce the "Compression" bonding of these HD Channels in the meantime, and not carry 2 streams of the same thing.... Goodness knows that anytime I try watching something on AMC HD, it's painful, with "slow motion" artifacts everywhere. In this case, it's pointless quantity by having two Showtime HD's, when I'd prefer quality for AMC HD.
I also imagine that this duplicative lineup is keeping us from having new channels like FX HD, Bravo HD, or Fox News HD from the extra space that these duplicative channels take up?
--
"We're going to start at one end of (Fallujah), and we're not going to stop until we get to the other. If there's anybody left when that happens, we're going to turn around and we're going to go back and finish it."
Lt. Col. Pete Newell: 1st Inf. US Army |
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sansri88
Go digtal you analog laggards
Premium
join:2005-12-17
Iselin, NJ
clubs: 
 ·Comcast
| It's not 2 streams for the HD channels.
They are just mapped in two different places, one feed.
As for HD On Demand those are just links to the On Demand content, which don't take up space.
You should check whether AMC is available on 53 in analog...sometimes they'll map the channel to it's analog position for a month or so until they remove it from the maps.
--
Sriram Satish
Comcast of NJ II sucks. Period.
25 HD channels compared to the average 32 or so. |
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IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC
edit:
October 4th, @10:08AM
| Thanks for the info.... How can you tell that they're "alias" links and not separate streams though?
Re AMC:
AMC is non-HD on 53 and 138
AMC HD is on 218
It's been that way for quite sometime... Why would they have multiple links to the same thing?
--
"We're going to start at one end of (Fallujah), and we're not going to stop until we get to the other. If there's anybody left when that happens, we're going to turn around and we're going to go back and finish it."
Lt. Col. Pete Newell: 1st Inf. US Army |
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bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA
| It allows them to graphically present related channels together in the channel line-up. Again, no waste of resources. All that is "used up" is a number, and they have a minimum of 999 numbers to work with, so until they fill up all 999 slots, putting the same stream on two "channels" costs nothing.
It should be noted that often you will find some channels broadcast as analog (for customers with analog service) and ADS (analog digital simulcast, for customers with digital service). That's another matter, and the incremental "waste" of bandwidth is only 1/10th of what it seems, if even that, since they can fit 10 or more ADS "channels" on one channel. However, it isn't even "waste" since the two different customer-bases have specific needs, and or gain specific benefits, that call for the channels to be presented in the specific format intended for them. |
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keithbart
join:2007-01-01
South Bend, IN
| said by bicker  :It allows them to graphically present related channels together in the channel line-up. Again, no waste of resources. All that is "used up" is a number, and they have a minimum of 999 numbers to work with, so until they fill up all 999 slots, putting the same stream on two "channels" costs nothing. It should be noted that often you will find some channels broadcast as analog (for customers with analog service) and ADS (analog digital simulcast, for customers with digital service). That's another matter, and the incremental "waste" of bandwidth is only 1/10th of what it seems, if even that, since they can fit 10 or more ADS "channels" on one channel. However, it isn't even "waste" since the two different customer-bases have specific needs, and or gain specific benefits, that call for the channels to be presented in the specific format intended for them. bicker, I'm confused. You said "they can fit 10 or more ADS channels on one channel". If a system like mine uses
ADS does that mean we should have room for more HD channels.
Is this the same as analog migration? |
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mikedz4
join:2003-04-14
Weirton, WV
 ·DIRECTV
 ·Verizon Online DSL
 ·Comcast Digital Vo..
·Comcast
| reply to IPPlanMan
what they do is keep it mapped like 53 on your box but if you take your box off and tune it, the channel would be blank or snowy. That is how you know whether or not it is two streams being mapped twice (once each) or one stream being mapped twice. They do that here with cspan and cspan2. If I take my box off 17(cspan) and 22(cspan 2 ) are snow but with the box they show the channel. |
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cypherstream
Build Fios, and I will come.
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
clubs:
 ·Cingular Wireless
edit:
October 4th, @08:37PM
| reply to keithbart
I'm going to try to use the term Slots instead of channels to try not to get confused. A slot is this description is a 6 MHz wide "RF Channel".
In a 750 MHz system there are 117 "Slots".
In an 860 MHz system there are 135 "Slots".
Each "Slot" a can contain any of the following:
-1 Analog Video Channel
-12 Digital Video Channels (sometimes more with higher compression)
-Up to 3 High Definition Digital Video Channels.
-38.8 mbps data channel.
-Any mixture of Standard digital video channels and 1 or 2 HD digital video channels.
So say you have 70 analog channels in a 750 MHz system, you have exactly 47 free slots to use for digital purposes.
In an ADS system they will duplicate those 70 analog channels in the digital format. For simplicity say they use 10:1 compression for ADS. To carry 70 channels in the digital format you would use 7 Slots used to recreate the analog lineup in the digital domain. Now your down to 40 free slots.
Say your system has 42 HD Channels all on 3:1 compression. That's an additional 14 "slots" used, so now were down to 26 free slots.
Now say your system has 6 Channel slots dedicated to video on demand, and 2 slots dedicated to high speed internet / digital voice. Now your down to 6 available slots. (Some systems get away with 4 VOD channel slots and 1 data channel slot).
At 12:1 compression you now have room for 72 additional digital channels (Premiums, Digital plus, etc..) because 12 * 6 = 72.
750 MHz systems don't give you much room as you can see. Mainly because those 70 Analog channels are taking up a whole lot of space, plus the system amplifiers are poorly designed and can not pass 135 or more channel slots.
So ADS actually takes up room on the system, but it's done for a number of purposes.
-Better picture quality to people using digital boxes.
-Less expensive boxes can be deployed that do not contain any analog tuner.
-DVR's handle all digital signals better. You can store more programming. Some Motorola DVRs were also buggy when recording analog channels.
-Stepping stone to going to an all digital service. People with boxes won't notice a difference because they are already tuned to the digital version.
-Easier to place channels in tier, move them around, authorize and deauthorize.
Keep in mind some of those "slots" are unusable. Those who use 104.2 MHz for their OOB "Box communication" channel will not be able to use slot # 97. Some area's might have noise issues on certain frequencies close to radio stations and broadcast towers. Some trouble channels are 95,96,97,17,18,19,20. A GOOD system however will be tight against "ingress" and not run into that problem. On the contrary some 750 MHz systems will not have an issue broadcasting up to 121 "slots" instead of the normal 117. |
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bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA
| "What he said." 
said by keithbart :You said "they can fit 10 or more ADS channels on one channel". If a system like mine uses ADS does that mean we should have room for more HD channels. Only after they get rid of analog service entirely. You might have digital service, but your neighbor may be relying on analog service, so those analog "slots" won't be freed up until your neighbor gets shafted. :-\ |
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IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC
edit:
October 5th, @01:28PM
| reply to IPPlanMan
Thank you all for the very helpful information....
From the numbers that you're giving Cypherstream, and I'm not sure what kind of system DC runs on, but it appears that the number of HD Channels is significantly limited compared to competing Satellite systems, and it also appears that we'll be stuck with 3:1 compression for HD Channels for a long long time... Furthermore, it also appears that we'll be stuck with the data speeds we have for a long time too...
I've noticed that it's been awhile since Comcast D.C. added new HD channels. We're lacking FX HD, Bravo HD, Fox News HD, IFC HD, CNBC HD.... among others.
I'm not sure what the holdup is on those additional channels... anyone have thoughts on that? Is it a lack of available bandwidth or something else?
--
"We're going to start at one end of (Fallujah), and we're not going to stop until we get to the other. If there's anybody left when that happens, we're going to turn around and we're going to go back and finish it."
Lt. Col. Pete Newell: 1st Inf. US Army |
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rob316
join:2005-10-17
Carteret, NJ | reply to IPPlanMan
In my are we are on 750mhz system which means no HD. Comcast needs to get off their ass and upgrade the system in our area. You cannot stuff a pig in straw, this is the same thing trying to cram hd, analog and other goodies in a 750mhz pipe. |
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cypherstream
Build Fios, and I will come.
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
clubs:
·Cingular Wireless
edit:
October 5th, @02:30PM
| reply to IPPlanMan
Well one of Comcast's biggest mistakes was purchasing systems that were only 750 MHz and lower. My area was upgraded by Time Warner and then AT&T took over. Comcast aquired it from AT&T, so Comcast was not responsible for the quality of the system and capacity. Comcast is stuck with old adelphia systems many which were neglected.
It's just so overwhelming for Comcast to upgrade all of the infrastructure because they are just too huge. They will crumble if they don't start selling some of these systems off to someone who WILL upgrade it, or if they don't upgrade themselves.
In my area we have a small MSO called Service Electric Cablevision. They were not afraid to upgrade their 750 MHz Magnavox system to an 870 MHz C-Cor system. They spent the money, upgraded the system right, and now offer more HD channels than Comcast. They are a smaller lesser known MSO also! Then there's Blue Ridge Cable in Northeast PA, and also in Ephrata PA. Ever hear of them? Probably not, but they have more HD than Comcast and are also on an 870 MHz SA Gainmaker system.
The little guys will upgrade their networks because it's easier for them to manage. The big guys like Time Warner, Cox, Charter will upgrade as well, but Comcast on the other hand has their funds tied up in stuff like addressable advertising and paying their top heavy corporate structure. Maybe an MSO that has a GM, small board of directors and an Owner/Operator has less costs than one that has 50 GM's, 200 board of directors, and overly paid VP's, CFO's, and CEO, along with grounds maintenance and energy for 100's of headends, rather than the small guy with only 3 headends.
When you have something so huge and heavy, it's harder to lift isn't it? |
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jmoz2989
join:2008-02-01
Moscow, PA
·Adams CATV
| Comcast recently took over a 500 Mhz system in Eagles Mere and Northumberland, PA. The company that ran these systems was Commuter Cable, like a lot of the rural providers in northern PA, they never invested in network upgrades for extra services. So now Comcast has a system with no digital cable infrastructure, HSI or digital voice solution. This is one system that Comcast has to sell off to Blue Ridge or Metrocast which already have a presence in that area. Otherwise none of these older Adelphia systems or ones in southeast PA will never be up to par, due to Comcast purchasing these legacy systems and experimenting with things like targeted advertising. |
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IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC | reply to IPPlanMan
I did some looking and it turns out that Comcast D.C. is an 860 MHz system...
»www.multichannel.com/article/CA625894.html |
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keithbart
join:2007-01-01
South Bend, IN
| My system is 860MHz and I have 38 HD channels. How many do you have? |
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IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC
edit:
October 5th, @06:34PM
| reply to IPPlanMan
38... not counting the Pay-per-view HD or HD on Demand Channels
Cypherstream- Using your math, are they running out of space to offer more here in DC? |
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cypherstream
Build Fios, and I will come.
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
clubs:
·Cingular Wireless
| Nope, you are 860 MHz system, your good to go.
I have 33 HD channels on a 750 MHz system, along with the standard Comcast fanfare, plus 1 data channel and 4 VOD channels (Some nodes are using 6 VOD channels). We have 74 analogs as well and we can't use slot #97 because the Motorola OOB data channel is there.
You have an extra 110 MHz to play with. |
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keithbart
join:2007-01-01
South Bend, IN | reply to IPPlanMan
cypherstream, I have 38 HD channels and 46 non-local
analogs on my 860MHz system. Can you give me a rough idea how many new HD channels Comcast can add? Thanks. |
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cypherstream
Build Fios, and I will come.
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
clubs:
·Cingular Wireless
| I thought I counted 58 analogs on TV Planner.net for your zip code. Well it's hard to say, some of those numbers 'below 100' could actually be digital only.
There's a lot of factors at play there. How many channels total (not including duplicates that show up in the lineup). 4 Music Choice channels count as 1 SD Digital channel.
Say you do have 46 analog channels. In an 860 MHz system you have 135 available channel slots. That's 89 channel slots available for digital channels and data. Conservatively let's say 6 channel slots for VOD and 2 for HSI/CDV. That's 81 channel slots for digital video. If they are only doing 2:1 HD compression since they have the room, that's 19 slots used for your current HD lineup. Could be less if they have some 3:1 compression in use. Normally there is a mix (some 3:1, some 2:1).
Anyway that's 62 channel slots available. Remember we have to duplicate your lineup now in the digital form. So count all of your SD channels from 2 to 999 but don't count duplicates and don't count HD (we've already accounted for them). Also don't worry about music only channels.
Take that answer and divide it by 12. Now add one for the Music Choice. Whatever that answer is minus 62 is a "rough estimate" of how much free space could be left.
Remember they could be using 10:1 compression, 11:1, or 12:1 on SD channels. Many times there's a mix mash. Some 15:1 (MLB/NHL Package), some 6:1 (ESPN PPV), some 8:1, some 10:1, etc....
Minus whatever channels you can't use due to noise, OTA interference, or placement of OOB data channels. If your system is smart, your OOB channel will be in the 74~75 MHz range between analog channels 4 and 5. If not, it could possibly live in the way of ch 95,96,97,98 or 99. Some area's designed the system better than others.
I would imagine you have enough room for 70 HD channels at least (with 2:1 compression). |
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keithbart
join:2007-01-01
South Bend, IN | reply to IPPlanMan
The reason I counted 46 is when Comcast does an analog migration (like they did in Chicago) they keep about
20 stations(locals like ABC, CBS, etc.) on analog. |
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markofmayhem
join:2004-04-08
Pittsburgh, PA
| Chicago and Boston were easy, DC is not.
»hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/a···24A1.pdf
Go to your state and county, this is a list of the channels that Satellite must carry as local in your area (it's an easy document to read and VERY closely mirrors the required stations that Comcast must carry as well: use it as a "cheat-sheet"). As long as these channels apply for "must carry" ATSC licenses and check "analog support" until 2012, they will remain analog as well as your "local" stations. DC is a pretty flooded by surrounding markets. Areas close in Maryland, Virginia, and Delaware will more than likely have closer to 30 analog stations carried after an "all digital" transition.
DC is also big on ingress due to RF waves all over the skies. There's probably a few channels skipped on your plant. If your truly estimating:
Count your total analog stations today, 68 as Cypher said.
Estimate 22 channels for 232 SD channels, half at 12:1 and half at 10:1 (the 15:1 and 8:1 will cancel each other out).
Estimate 6 3:1 HD HITS and local muxed stations (18 HD's)
Estimate 10 channels for the other 20 HD stations: locals and nationals such as HDTheatre and the ESPN's
Estimate 1 full channel of music.
Estimate 6 digital services channels (VoD, HSI, and the like).
Estimate 4 unservicable channels.
Estimate 1 OOB support channel.
That's 118, just one over a "normal" 750mhz system. You may be "860", doesn't mean your utilizing it all. Looks like a jam-packed 750 system to me. Being DC, I'm sure you have tons of traps and filters on your system in addition to out-dated and damaged taps. Perhaps replacing them all for releasing that full 860 potential is not cost effective. Your physical plant connected to your home may support 860; your entire node may support 860; but you have to get your entire head-end on board. Also, if your head-end is not able to receive national channels on it's own, then your at the mercy of your regional head-end to feed you those new national HD channels. If the regional head-end has mostly 750mhz plant on it's system, then your maxed out and looking at analog reclaimation as your solution for more HD. I feel your pain, I have a carrier test signal on channel 131, CLEARLY able to handle 860mhz on my plant, but am stuck on a line-up for 650mhz systems, slightly less than you. If you truly are 860 and it's not capacity stopping you but the regional VP to light up your area before other less capacity areas, then you have room for:
Dedicated VoD slots to handle: 17 additional HD feeds + 51 additional SD feeds
34 HD at 2:1 compression
51 HD at 3:1 compression
170 SD at average compression (10:1 is average)
2040 music express channels |
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