thewisperer
Premium
join:2008-01-16
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
| please comment on engineer's report
Some of the municipalities in my area have asked an engineering firm to prepare a report detailing the feasibility of deploying a large scale wireless network in our area. We are talking very large scale....
They have come to the following conclusions.
They considered Moto Canopy, Nortel Networks and Skypilot.
Canopy gear: los 64 km, 6 Mbps, 15 ms latency
ptp backhaul 4.9 Ghz: los 200km latency 1ms
Skypilot: 14 km los (average 6km) latency of 10 ms
from one antenna to the other
Nortel Networks los ptp 80 km los to sub 4km
They add that mesh is not absolutely required in a network but it adds better coverage, performance and mobility.
They also mention that Skypilot has innovative technology that reduces the number of antennas required on towers (backhaul integrated with distribution). Mobility is not available with Canopy but is with Skypilot.
I have more info (cost of towers etc) but I will ask for comments first then continue on.
From what I have learned a lot of this is not possible and I would like to use some of the comments that I will obtain here to attack a expensive (5 grand) study that I think is not accurate
thanks |
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John Galt
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Oceanside, OR
| It is only necessary to look at the success (or lack thereof) of other muni wireless deployments.
In virtually every case, the consultants recommendations and plan have met with failure. There are, of course, a number of deployments that are actually successful, but these are few and far between.
Ubiquitous wireless is a pipe-dream (especially if data rate is a consideration) if its intended audience is the general public. If the audience is restricted to muni and public safety (I see you listed 4.9 GHz) who use it outside of buildings then the chances are that a full-functional system may be accomplished.
Be advised that costs will escalate above the estimate...they always do.
From my point-of-view, the muni system that has the most chance of success is one that has a cable or fiber backhaul with wireless microcells serving end users.
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A is A |
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thewisperer
Premium
join:2008-01-16
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| The goal is to serve the end user
I thought that 4.9 was restricted to public safety use.
This firm is located in Montreal. I would think they would have been informed that that frequency can not be used for backhaul to serve residential and commercial customers. |
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shorthairedp
join:2005-11-21
Pontiac, IL | reply to thewisperer
if there is one municipality being served by the backhaul, then 4.9 is ok, even if its a free unused su at their location, the whole backhaul from that pop back to the backbone is covered |
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tx_tower
join:2007-11-13
Blanco, TX | reply to thewisperer
i would not suggest skypilot unless you plan on using dualband for the mesh, single band simply will not work well in a mesh network architecture. canopy is quite solid with good thruput and the price is fair. |
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battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000 | reply to thewisperer
Is this network for the use of the municipality or for the use of the citizens? |
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AMD Phreak
Please do the needfull
Premium
join:2003-12-14
| reply to thewisperer
While I have no direct Mesh experience, my understanding is that Motomesh is one of the best mesh radio systems out there. The combination of 4.9GHz backhaul and 2.4GHz AP, packs a wicked punch. You can also go with the 5GHz backhaul option in places where you are not permitted to run 4.9.
But everything that John Galt has said is true. |
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public
join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA
·DSL EXTREME
| reply to thewisperer
said by thewisperer  : I would like to use some of the comments that I will obtain here to attack a expensive (5 grand) study that I think is not accurate A $5k study is typically a compilation of datasheet information. At that level of funding there are no field surveys, no attempt to design a network model and simulate traffic.
It would be interesting for someone to try a 200km canopy backhaul link. |
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lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to John Galt
thewisperer, I can only suggest you first become familiar with the many different models of WISP gear sold by Motorola and Nortel/Alvarion joint venture. Please add to that list backhauls from Redline and Dragonwave plus mesh units from BelAir.
BTW always verify Industry Canada certification status - some popular mesh boxes do not have it - you really do not want to suggest illegal gear in a municipal deployment. 
said by John Galt :From my point-of-view, the muni system that has the most chance of success is one that has a cable or fiber backhaul with wireless microcells serving end users. For Quebec municipalities, a quicker and less expensive option could be feeding a few hundred wireless nodes using multiple dedicated DSL lines each. The DSL aggregation, QoS, and AAA servers could all be located at a premium Montreal internet exchange like #1080 Beaver Hall.  |
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thewisperer
Premium
join:2008-01-16
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| I have not suggested any gear: they never consulted me.
I was handed a copy of the report and I wanted feedback to pass on to them.
I doubt that the company who wrote it has any experience in deploying equipment.
How could they go with wireless nodes with dedicated dsl lines if no dsl is available at most locations?
They mention using fiber available at one location and start from there (this fiber is for the municipality)
Strangely, some of the municipalities are served by Videotron fiber but there is a contract in place that prevents resale to the general population |
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John Galt
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Oceanside, OR
| reply to thewisperer
Poke around here:
»www.muniwireless.com/
for more information.
There are a lot of industry-supported white papers, which, if read with a modicum of skepticism, will yield some useful information and perhaps give you some guidance on how to proceed and the proper questions to ask.
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A is A |
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outofsite
Premium
join:2002-12-02
Mobile, AL
| reply to thewisperer
I have been deploying Skypilot equipment for over 3 years with over 250 nodes in service. It has been very dependable for us. Citywide deployments are tough if you are trying to cover the inside of buildings from the outside in. That said we have had good success using Skypilot to get the service around town, you will need some type of indoor component to bring the service inside. For this at this point I recommend Ruckus Wireless to extend the service indoors. |
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lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
edit:
October 7th, @11:08AM
| reply to thewisperer
said by thewisperer :Strangely, some of the municipalities are served by Videotron fiber but there is a contract in place that prevents resale to the general population Many Quebec WISPs have directly negotiated bandwidth with Videotron. There are even a few Ontario WISPs who get their bandwidth across the Ottawa river.
BTW wherever there are ~20 homes in a cluster, Bell could install a remote pole-mounted DSLAM - this happened in several MRC des Collines de l'Outaouais communities (including tiny Meech Lake) just before we were going to install a network back in 2004.
I am guessing you are talking about rural municipalities? Are they familiar with the Villages Branchés du Québec project? Please send me an e-mail via DSLR to get some QC network plans we did in 2003/4 for funding from Govt. of Canada Broadband for Rural and Northern Development (BRAND) project. The old equipment suggestion was mostly X86-based Mikrotik systems but the design philosophy still applies to rural ON/QC areas. |
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Nowireneeded
join:2004-02-11
Montoursville, PA
| reply to John Galt
John, skepticism is an understatement. I've spent weeks trying to undue unrealistic expectations set from the likes of many in the wireless mesh space. 20 nodes per square mile to 40 then 70.....then more. It seems to be getting better in that space today with words like "convenience" and "hot spots" replacing words like "95% coverage" and "seamless roaming". Wimax is less expensive to deploy per square mile for indoor coverage than wifi mesh (unless it's in a major metro where licenses are rather outrageous). |
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