Maccawolf
Premium
join:2001-02-20
Hillsdale, NJ
| Clueless person alert.
There's a rant over at RANTS, raves and praise that originally started by bashing the apple/PC commercials (which I don't really mind although his reasoning was VERY flawed), but now he's taking a stab at how UN- beginner frinedly Linux users are. Everyone here should go over there and set him straight.....
Just looked again, it's two different people.
STILL.....
»Apple is "making" people dumb
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Mom and Crockett...... I miss you both! |
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MaxCras
join:2008-09-19
Mount Clemens, MI | I was going to post, but there is no reason for me to get a riled up on a topic that will most likely die off in a day or so... |
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nightshade74
Yet another genxer
Premium
join:2004-11-06
Prattville, AL
 ·Knology
 ·VoicePulse
| said by MaxCras  :I was going to post, but there is no reason for me to get a riled up on a topic that will most likely die off be locked in a day or so... Edited for truth...  |
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Hayward
K A R - 1 2 0 C
Premium
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL
edit:
October 7th, @01:44AM
| reply to Maccawolf
Well I have to admit the Mac ove PC ads really are rather irritating... Macs are nice but they are hardly only thing bigger than the end of the world, and rather very costly for what they are.
Linux on the other hand, is just what it is... no more, no less and no pretending/pretense.
You can;t find help then you are either just not looking, or being arrogant why isn't this a PC or Mac attitude.
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»haywardm.com (Hayward's Key West)
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MaxCras
join:2008-09-19
Mount Clemens, MI
·WOW Internet and C..
| I agree about the ads too. I enjoyed the old cocky but quiet niche Apple Computer, not this new arrogant apple.
I got to hand it to them though, every time I go into the apple store I run right to the Mac Pro w/ 30'' lcd  |
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happylurk
@look.ca
| reply to Maccawolf
»www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfmZMjQUW74
hehehehe |
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Jason
Dear Penthouse Forum
Premium
join:2001-01-24
38.2967 Lat
clubs:
| reply to Maccawolf
Meh.
I like running linux, I think its a superior OS in many, many ways. but i dont feel the need to convince others.
As an aside, doesn't it seem the extreme OS zealots (on all sides of the fence) sound just like the extreme religious zealots? Over half the arguments would still make sense if you simply replaced every mention of the OS, with a religion.
-Jason
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A sucking chest wound is just nature's way of telling you to slow down. |
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No_Strings
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-22
The OC | Except the only virgins promised the Linux faithful are living in their parents' basements. |
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Maccawolf
Premium
join:2001-02-20
Hillsdale, NJ
| reply to Jason
While I agree in theory, I am just sorry that he (or she) had such bad Newbie experiences (I've been nothing but welcomed and helped) and would like others to back up my pleasant newbie experience.
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Mom and Crockett...... I miss you both! |
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rec9140
Provoice just DO it
join:2003-07-29
Mulberry, FL
·RoadRunner Cable
| said by Maccawolf :
While I agree in theory, I am just sorry that he (or she) had such bad Newbie experiences (I've been nothing but welcomed and helped) and would like others to back up my pleasant newbie experience.
Can not back that up....
It not only occurs on *nix sites, but others as well. This site is guilty as charged as well in some areas. I could name a few but won't...
I can name a few sites on various topics that are very new user unfriendly or unfriendly if your not "in tune with the sites viewpoint" and its the only site for support.
Linux in general has a bad rep for new user warm and fuzzy or the lack thereof.
If the post is such an annoyance to you move on. Posts such as "google is your friend.," "RTFM," "man (insert command)" etc. are all not useful to new users or old users.
People get their panties in a bunch because Billy Bob New User gets involved in x and goes to the support site/forum/mailing list/newsgroup to get help. Its a basic question that gets repeated over and over.... out come the "Search first!" flamers....BZZZT! WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!
I don't subscribe to that theory. Go to x support site, post in the forum/mailing list/newsgroup and get a response.
That response should be something along the lines of:
You can find help on this topic in the following posts:
xx
yy
zzz
etc...
NOT:
"SEARCH!"
"google"
"RTFM"
etc..
With out the answers at some point google would be of no use as its only index previous posts.
I operate 40 mailing lists on various topics, and I have a ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY on search first and similar type posts. Post that crap and your banned. No warnings, done. I won't put up with that kind of crap. All users new and old are welcome to post their question of any sort related to the topic of the list. Be it a question thats been asked once, twice or hundred million times.
Groups/forums/mailing list/newsgroups are cyclical in nature and have new users come and go. Some only come to a site when they have a problem, solve it (hopefully) and move on, until they have another problem.
I've had a can't see the forsest for the tree moment in dealing with a query on MySQL. While the answer and steps I took with that answer make the query work, I was looking for something maybe a little more eqloquent, and the resutling SQL just doesn't sit right with me being "proper" SQL. Unfortunately I don't have the time to really debate if its proper SQL at the moment. I am also very sure that to some MySQL users the questions seems like one of those "DUH!" type questions. Ask me setup replication, re-start replication, dumps/imports and other complex things in MySQL I got an answer, probably. Sometimes the most basic of things are like UMMMMMM... Forest...Trees....
As for Linux....I've learned it the hard way off and on since the 42+ 3.5" disks I got with a version of Linux. I recently needed to a conversion of an image from format x to format y..... I found out that a simple convert image.x image.y from the CLI would do it. I was quite thrilled that a simple little CLI command would do that in linux v. having to find some huge winslopper program to do the same, although I will give IrfanView credit on winslopper its a nice little viewer, converter, but unfortunately it wouldn't do the conversion I needed and I would have had to raid one of the luser PC's in cubeland to install it.
*nix sites tend to be very unfriendly to new users.
As for the mac v. PC ads... I admit I get quite the howl out of the crapple ads. I think they are hilarious at times...I am going to buy anything from crappple????? What was you first hint? NOT A CHANCE.
I build all my own personal PC's, and would do the same for my various work needs, but time to build 30-40 PC's at a go is just not there.
mac v. PC in general... each has it place... mac in the pre-press/media production areas is a no brainer and been in that market for quite some time. PC's based on Linux are starting to infiltrate this market... as I recall theres a major CGI house that uses a Linux or BSD based rendering farm.
my take on mac is it's similar to a cult. Overpriced hardware running, software thats little more than a custom blend of BSD and NeXT....... If it works for you great... I'll pass. For those that come into the workplace and think they are going to bring their crapple laptop in and use and get support...BZZT! Not here your not. IBM type PC's running Linux and when forced to winslopper is all thats supported.
I've seen the "light" and use Linux for my personal, and personally controlled PC's at work, and all servers are Linux based. If I see a question on the KMint site that I can answer I post a reply, especially if the standard flamer posts have already started.
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Ban all copyright, trademarks, and IP laws!//Lorem ipsum ei pro stet equidem labores, at enim animal expetenda nec. Ea vix argumentum dissentiunt, usu esse ridens ex. |
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JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA
 ·SONIC.NET
| said by rec9140 :I operate 40 mailing lists on various topics, and I have a ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY on search first and similar type posts. Post that crap and your banned. No warnings, done. I won't put up with that kind of crap. All users new and old are welcome to post their question of any sort related to the topic of the list. Be it a question thats been asked once, twice or hundred million times. If you would have googled first, you would have found that answer for yourself.
JFGI - words to live by.
Give a man a google search, he surfs for a day
Teach a man to google search, he surfs for life.
I guess the thing that is a bit hard for me, at least, is when someone posts a question that is already in the "10 most recent posts" list of the forum. Or they post a question that, IF TYPED INTO THE GOOGLE SEARCH BOX itself, would yield the answer they seek.
I mean, yeah, I get being confused, but as some point natural selection has to kick in.
Of course, I kid. I love all questions. Ask away. I won't bite. Grrrr. |
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antiserious
The Future ain't what it used to be
Premium
join:2001-12-12
Scranton, PA
| reply to No_Strings
said by No_Strings :Except the only virgins promised the Linux faithful are living in their parents' basements.
That's really unfair to people that don't have a basement.
As for that other thread, I'm avoiding it like the plague. No good can come of it, and it doesn't take Apple to 'make' people dumb - they do just fine on their own.
(aside: aren't almost all Linux users "PC's" as well?)
--
"My goal in life is to become the kind of problem that people throw money at".
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rec9140
Provoice just DO it
join:2003-07-29
Mulberry, FL
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to JohnInSJ
said by JohnInSJ :
If you would have googled first, you would have found that answer for yourself.
JFGI - words to live by.
Give a man a google search, he surfs for a day
Teach a man to google search, he surfs for life.
I guess the thing that is a bit hard for me, at least, is when someone posts a question that is already in the "10 most recent posts" list of the forum. Or they post a question that, IF TYPED INTO THE GOOGLE SEARCH BOX itself, would yield the answer they seek.
We are most definately on opposite ends of this...
Lets just play this out.....
If your not allowed to post questions to the forum/list/newsgroup to be answered WHERE is the almighty google going to get a post to index and provide the answer????????
Since I am not really a big fan of web forums, I much prefer newsgroups and mailing lists, and begrundging use the web forums that I frequent because thats where the support for some things has taken root or only exists...back to the point..... newsgroups and ML have FAQ's yes, but depending on when you join the group and/or the cache of your NNTP server it may not be visible at that time.
I operate on a simple premise, find the ML/NNTP/forum that is correct for the topic, post question, get a helpful response.
Unfortunately the last part of this can be hard to achieve. 
I am just not going to agree that because some question comes up 1, 100, 1000, 1000000000 or more times, that its off limits and desrves to be flamed. The question comes up....reply with "Check out this post, in section 10.1.a.iv it will outline how to correct the dowhatits not clicking with the thingeydo." If thats too much to ask then maybe its time to move on.
If the repitive nature of the post bothers you move on to the next. I do it all the time. Some times the basic question comes up over and over and I answer it, normally with a cut/paste from a previous answer. Sometimes I am just not in the mood, and move on. No flaming, no google it, no rtfm. Sometimes that means the question doesn't get answered.
Whats the point of the site if google has all the answers? Oh wait google only has the answers because it indexes sites with the answers.... BUT WAIT, can't ask that question because it might have been asked before....
I don't agree with that, its a huge sore point with me and it best to leave at that.
And I DO BITE when it comes to this.
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Ban all copyright, trademarks, and IP laws!//Lorem ipsum ei pro stet equidem labores, at enim animal expetenda nec. Ea vix argumentum dissentiunt, usu esse ridens ex. |
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Maccawolf
Premium
join:2001-02-20
Hillsdale, NJ
| reply to Maccawolf
Maybe Linux sites in general are not very NEWBIE friendly, but I found the UBUNTU absolute beginners form of great help (still do) however, I generally READ looking for the answer til my eyes go blurry. THEN I post...LOL
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Mom and Crockett...... I miss you both! |
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revrus
join:2002-07-14
Chillicothe, OH
 ·SkyWay
 ·Alltel Axess
| reply to Maccawolf
Ok the last comment did it.
Ignoring the post and not getting an look here or search answer even. This gives the attitude that (Place your own OS) people are arrogant and ignore beginners.
Those (z os) people don't even try and do anything! The so and so dweebs. I have seen too many lists where 2/3's of the questions are ignored and yet the elite sit and pat each other on the back and say how great they are at helping people.
Now you have hit one of MY great peeves and I do get annoyed by the attitude you have just displayed in your sanctimonious hypocrisy.
You dare to sit and write two epiloges taking every one else to task for failing to wash the bums and wipe the chins of those who will not learn? Yet you have the barefaced gall to state that you ignore posts from the unwashed masses? This is pure arrogant hypocrisy.
Rant over.
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DOS: n., A small annoying boot virus that causes random spontaneous system crashes, usually just before saving a massive project. Easily cured by UNIX.See also MS-DOS, IBM-DOS, DR-DOS.(from David Vicker's .plan) |
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No_Strings
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-22
The OC | reply to rec9140
We're had this conversation many times before. If you'd searched a little before posting, you would have known that.
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djrobx
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
 ·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T CallVantage
·Time Warner VOIP
·RoadRunner Cable
·DSL EXTREME
| reply to JohnInSJ
quote:
If you would have googled first, you would have found that answer for yourself.
Or not. I can't tell you the number of times I was googling for the answer to a question, and all I could find is a bunch of smartass "google it" replies.
If you don't have a useful answer or are tired of answering the question, just leave it alone. Everyone knows what Google is.
-- Rob
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AT&T U-Hearse
Your funeral. Delivered.
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MaxCras
join:2008-09-19
Mount Clemens, MI
·WOW Internet and C..
| reply to Maccawolf
I guess I take a very... unique standpoint.
I feel that n00b faqs (keep in mind I am not using n00b as a term to put down on people) are written for a good reason. To answer frequently asked n00b questions. I feel no pity for a n00b who ignored the forum rules (i.e. read the n00b faq before posting) and got flamed in the process.
But then I wonder, what are these forum "gods" doing all day that makes answering a n00b question so hard? Well, generally if you look in their recent posts, pretty much just flaming n00bs. So how much help would they be if they did decide to answer your question?
Another part of the issue is the n00b post themselves. Generally they are written so vague ("my internets don't work in *nix! Help me") that it shows that said n00b did not even take the time to research what he was getting him/herself into in the first place.
Of course the "gods" response would be something flaming, instead of asking the OP for details.
Overall I feel that for some reason as time goes on more and more people expect things to be easy or get fixed for them with little or no input, and are becoming lazy when it comes to fixing something themselves, hence n00bs constantly getting flamed. But since they are constantly getting flamed, less and less people are deciding to take the plunge into something more difficult than Windows or OSX and becoming more and more "n00bish" when using a computer.
More or less the rope is being burned from both ends.
I don't think that people realize that there are other resources left in the world other than google though. Whenever I have a issue with Linux, I check the man pages, if nothing is there, I grab my books, if that still fails, then I google.
The solution: more books! Make people educate themselves before they even install the damn OS!
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Maccawolf
Premium
join:2001-02-20
Hillsdale, NJ
| said by MaxCras :The solution: more books! Make people educate themselves before they even install the damn OS! While I agree, that I wish there were MORE (current) books, I can honestly say that if FORCED to read about the OS before installing, I probably wouldn't have installed it. That's the way I am in life, I'll do something, but don't FORCE me to do it. (Think Seat belts...)
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Mom and Crockett...... I miss you both! |
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MaxCras
join:2008-09-19
Mount Clemens, MI
·WOW Internet and C..
| I'm not saying we need to force people to learn about it before installing it. But I make sure I have a slight idea of what I am getting myself into, mainly because if I break it, I need to fix it fast before people start complaining that things don't work |
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