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| | Re: Unions Yeah, and another thing is that in some cases they are being REALLY picky. For example, two ground wires under one screw - SO WHAT, as long as both wires are secured under the screw. In another case they griped because the ground wire was under a screw on the electric meter box. Now let's think about this - the National Electric Code REQUIRES the meter box to be grounded, and you'd have to go out of your way to break the ground to hook up a meter box without grounding it. So, if there is a screw going into the meter box, that screw IS grounded. I'm not saying these aren't technical code violations, but if you have any licensed electricians in your family ask them if they've ever come across technical code violations that work perfectly well for their intended purpose, and perhaps have even been passed by an electrical inspector, but that are still a technical code violation.
50 years ago, the National Electrical Code mostly made sense. Today, it seems like the special interests have gotten hold of it and have added all sorts of amendments, some of which really do nothing to improve safety, but that do add cost and complexity to an installation. I'm not saying all the changes were bad, but some were just ridiculous.
When you want to ground something the basic idea is to have a good connection to a good ground that is also connected to the home's grounding system. You want to complain about no connect at all, or a connection to a water pipe (that may or may not actually be grounded) I'm right there with you. You're going to complain because they used a screw on the electric meter box, I say you're being ridiculous and a donkey's behind - whatever the almighty code may or may not say, it's still a good ground, and at least it's better than nothing. Which, by the way, is what a lot of cable customers out in the boondocks get... nothing. You'd be amazed at how many grounding blocks have no ground connection whatsoever.
One other thing I will mention: Nowadays many electrical inspectors are requiring that the ground wire from the home's electrical service be placed inside plastic conduit from entrance box to ground (this seems to be an inspector preference thing). While this admittedly protects the ground wire from damage from lawnmowers and weed whackers, it also means that there's no place to hook a cable or phone ground in the traditional manner (clamp to the ground wire). If the idiots that wrote the code had a lick of common sense, they'd demand that new electric meter boxes have an accessible ground bus on the bottom of the box specifically for the connection of ground wires by communications services. It would add maybe a quarter or so to the cost of the meter box, but would provide an "approved" place to connect the grounds on every new home from services such as phone, cable, FiOS, satellite TV dishes, external TV antennas, etc. No scratching your head looking for a good ground because, at least on new homes, it would always be available right on the underside of the electric meter box. But something like that would make too much sense for the code writers; they'd rather keep making conflicting rules and regulations that confuse everybody.
By the way, I don't work for any phone or cable company (or any similar type of company), and I don't have any personal axe to grind here - I just think that if the union wants to complain about safety violations, it makes them look really petty to complain about things that actually are grounded, and probably grounded well enough for anyone other than the most anal-retentive inspector (of which, I'm sure, New York has more than their fair share). Out here in the boonies we'd be happy if the doggone cable companies would make an effort to ground their connections at all! | |
|   jplove71Premium
join:2001-03-16
Colorado Springs, CO | Re: Unions I have just one word for your rant.
Liability.
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Rakkasan! | |
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1 edit | Re: Unions I have one word for your reply, but they probably won't let me say it here.
By the way, I'm not advising anyone not to follow electrical codes (of course, even if I had said such a thing, anyone who would follow such advice from an Internet forum post is a bigger idiot that some of the people who apparently write the electrical codes). But the point I was trying to make is that there is a serious disconnect between what the codes say and what happens in the real world, and part of the reason for that is that the people who write the codes generally aren't the ones out doing the actual installations. I have seen licensed electricians do things that I knew were not to code - in some cases they didn't get away with it and in other cases they did. The codes are such a mess that even the inspectors don't seem to be certain of what is required in any given situation. I was reading a forum a while back where licensed electricians were arguing over the interpretation of some parts of the electrical code (I was trying to figure out what the requirements were for putting an outlet in a garage, and stumbled across that donnybrook). Some had the attitude that it didn't matter what the code said, as long as the inspector would pass it. Others were very strict follow-the-letter-of-the-code types, even when they had to admit the code didn't make much sense.
In my opinion, the code writers should be happy if there is a good ground, and not so picky. Because at some point the law of unintended consequences kicks in - you get installers that say, there's no way I can hook up a ground that will comply with the code anyway, so why bother? Of course if the homeowner's house later burns down due to a lightning strike, he can sue the cable or phone company, but that hardly compensates him for the loss of his life's possessions (or maybe loss of life!) and all the inconvenience while he is displaced from his home, and that's assuming that someone even makes the connection between the improper ground and the fire. And even then, the installer probably won't be held personally liable, and the cable or phone company will just turn it over to their insurance company.
So my point is, if I had a choice between an installer making the effort to ground the system, say to a screw on the meter box which WILL be grounded, as opposed to not making the effort at all, I'd much prefer he make the effort. If some pointy-headed code writer can prove that screw is not a good ground, then I might revise my opinion, but they can't because the fact is that the screw is grounded. And if they think it isn't, then let them devise some mechanism so that a good ground point IS available on every home, and so you don't have to be an electrical engineer to figure out where that good ground might be. Remember that cable TV and phone companies aren't hiring electrical engineers to install cables, so sometimes these guys make a best-guess effort to find a good ground. Maybe we should make that good ground easier to find!
Anyway, I generally think that in the United States the government has gotten out of hand with their codes and regulations. I tend to be more libertarian in outlook and wish that they'd stopped with a good, functional code (of relatively few words) that covered the basics in a way that everyone could understand, and that weren't unreasonable or overly convoluted. I did not ask for, nor do I want my government to keep me so safe that everything is prohibitively expensive because of all the safety regulations (unless you are a big corporation and can find ways around them). | |
| | |  SteveConIBEW 2222 Boston, MAPremium
join:2004-09-02
Boston, MA
2 edits | Re: Unions Only one conductor per terminal - if one conductor needs to be removed, the other is ungrounded when the screw is loosened. Now if there is current flowing to ground, and you happen to be the unlucky person in or on the circuit that provides a new path to ground, well, that will probably hurt - a lot (this is the same reasoning for the bond around the water meter - so when the poor guy who comes to replace it doesn't get electrocuted).
The grounding point on the meter socket isn't supposed to be accomplished via hinged cover. It must be solidly connected. A number #10 wire wrapped around a pipe will not work - though others have tried. That's why the NEC spells out as to how to go about it under many different scenarios.
A screw used to connect ground conductors can not be used for another purpose, it can only be used for grounding. Hence the #10-32 screw on cable connectors can't be used - it is to clamp the cable. Screws that hold parts together, or to secure to a surface, etc. are unsuitable, again because if the parts need to come apart, the screw gets backed out and the ground attempts to find a new path.
If it's too difficult to understand the NEC, pay someone who can to do it for you. You don't need to be an "electrical engineer" to do this - there are thousands of people with just a high school diploma that do this all day long - you probably just don't want to pay them though - they're electricians.
Lastly, some words of caution: The end does not justify the means. | |
| | | | | | Re: Unions When you say it the way you do it makes slightly more sense, except that normally there shouldn't be any significant amount of current flowing to ground - that in itself is unsafe. After all, why makes you think no one will ever have to undo that single ground point? What makes it any less dangerous to disconnect a wire from a connection point if there is only one wire instead of two? Maybe the person who undertakes to disconnect one of those wires should take a little personal responsibility and take precautions against coming in contact with live electricity, whether it's on the wire he's in the process of disconnecting or on the other wire. If there's enough current flowing through that wire to electrocute someone as a matter of course (that is, you're not working on this stuff during an electrical storm), then something is seriously wrong. If I had to remove one wire from underneath a screw where there were two, and I wasn't sure about wire #2, I would either take care to use gloves, tools with insulated handles, and/or I would run a temporary jumper from wire #2 to ground to drain off any excess current. What's wrong with expecting anyone who plans to mess with those wires to take some precautions?
Anyway, hell will freeze over before I pay someone to help me understand the NEC. I know how to do household wiring, and as I pointed out in my previous post, I've seen licensed electricians do things that were against code (in one case in particular, the guy was getting cold and didn't want to take the time to do it right, even after I mentioned that I didn't think what he was doing was legal - a comment he did not appreciate, by the way. After the inspector failed his work, he wouldn't even look at me when he had to come and do it over). If I electrocute myself (fat chance - can you point me to even ONCE incident where someone disconnected a ground wire and immediately was electrocuted?), maybe I'll be lucky and get reincarnated in some country (or on some other planet) where government officials do not think it it their duty to keep us safe from everything that could ever possibly happen to us, and draining all the fun and sense of personal accomplishment out of life in the process. Don't get me wrong, if I'm doing wiring in my own home I'm scrupulous about hooking up grounds, and I'll go out of my way to do it right. But when you see what passes for electrical wiring in other countries, and note that it still works even when it would violate a dozen U.S. codes (and people are NOT getting electrocuted right and left), you realize that our code authors are WAY too picky, and that a lot of what is in the code was probably motivated more out of financial considerations (that is, lining the pocket of some special interest group, such as licensed but not necessarily competent electricians) than out of a genuine concern for safety. It's not that it's too difficult for me to understand the NEC, it's that I think the people who wrote it were being just a bit ridiculous with some of their requirements.
And by the way, don't ever make the mistake of thinking that just because a person is licensed, that means that they will automatically follow all the codes associated with their profession. I've seen multiple instances where licensing did absolutely nothing to guarantee quality of workmanship. | |
| | | | | SteveConIBEW 2222 Boston, MAPremium
join:2004-09-02
Boston, MA | Re: Unions You're right, current shouldn't normally flow to ground - however.. Some devices and appliances are notorious for doing this - such as fluorescent lights and many motor operated appliances: fridge, oil furnace, etc. Of course, any time there is a ground fault - full or partial - this can occur. The homeowner would never know it unless (s)he checked the grounds with a clamp-on amprobe.
When disconnecting wires from terminal screws, one should never do so when under load. Shutting the load off via fuse, breaker, etc. first is a must.
It interesting, how you said:
If I had to remove one wire from underneath a screw where there were two, and I wasn't sure about wire #2, I would either take care to use gloves, tools with insulated handles, and/or I would run a temporary jumper from wire #2 to ground to drain off any excess current. What's wrong with expecting anyone who plans to mess with those wires to take some precautions?
You wouldn't have taken this precaution until after reading my post. You think you're doing the job correctly, but you have a false sense of security. I wonder if your family shares your confidence in your work. I don't know what you do for work - but I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't go around boasting that I could do it better than you. I suppose that if I did attempt your work and screwed it up, no one would die - but you can't say the same for electrical work. Gambling with the safety and lives of those in your house is not my idea of what is "fun" and provides "a sense of accomplishment"
Since I can't get you to fully understand, I suggest lofty amounts of life insurance and promptly paying home insurance premiums.
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The Labor Movement - those wonderful folks that brought you the weekend! | |
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 ·Verizon FiOS
| Hey buddy , if Verizon FioS has to obide by the ridiculously strict rules, everyone else must play by those rules too. Simple as that.
Now when you have cable companies pressuring the PSC to enforce these rules.. you expect Verizon.. and its union... to just stay quiet ?? PLEEEEEZ. | |
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