remmian
@dslextreme.com
|  smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers!
Well, here we are and here's my problem:
The outgoing gmail server SUBSTITUES IN my ISP address as the FROM and REPLY address, no matter WHAT identity I am using in my email client!! I never USE my ISP address. I keep it shielded for a reason. I use my domain email addresses instead for all correspondence. NOT ANYMORE!!
Thannks to gmail and without warning, I might add, I noticed all my correspondents were complaining about "my new address" ... then sent myself an email from my usual domain address I use and saw the problem: gmail stripped out the domain email address, and filled in my ISP address.
I AM SO MAD! I was online chat for an hour with DSLX... the guy never came back after an hour... then I called... they said a "level 2 tech" will call me back.
Obviously this is a spam-prevention feature configured into the gmail server. Did they not, for one second, imagine that people have legitimate uses for sending mail from addresses OTHER than their ISP address??
I was nice to DSLX b/c it isn't the tech's faults, but I am LIVID. | |
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 OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
| Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! I feel your pain... I'm in the same boat with you.
Read this post. The hack that DLSE has offered is looking like a joke if you will check header of mails sent with this trick.
There is no any decent solution as far as I know. As a result I have to move my mail communications to my own mail server...
And yes, there is a lot of legitimate circumstances when you have to use different FROM field. They (Google) simply don't grasp it yet 
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Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself... | |
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remmian
@dslextreme.com
| Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! OZO: Thanks for the link. I am speechless. Truly. How can the people that configured the gmail server possibly NOT know that people send email from domain addresses through their ISP outgoing email server??? My domain hosts don't even *provide* an outgoing mail server, b/c most ISPs won't allow you to use any but their own anyway. So it is the Internet STANDARD that the ISP outgoing mail server -- for which we PAY I might add -- be capable of SENDING MAIL. **NOT** just mail from the ISP address, but MAIL PERIOD.
Thanks to this unacceptable situation, that again, we were NOT WARNED ABOUT (in fact HOW many emails did we receive from DSL promising that NOTHING WOULD CHANGE??), my ISP address has now been spread all over the gd*m world. I also use encryption in my personal correspondence, which works by matching public and private keys to the email address in the headers... making this inconvenient for people who receive my mail, hit reply, and can't find the key to encrypt the mail because gmail saw fit to change the address!! So they have to manually switch back in the right address to encrypt.
Who are these gmail techs? Are they 19 years old and grew up with IM, Webmail, and socializing sites and really have NO idea of what a third party email client is that uses identities to send mail from various addresses?? If they want to filter spam, set the da*m thing to filter messages by number count, NOT BY ADDRESS. I can't think of anything more INVASIVE than my ISPs mail server CHANGING MY EMAIL HEADERS TO SUIT THEM!!
I'm sorry... I'm not mad at you... I just want to SCREAM. This should be a no-brainer. This should not even be an issue. Having a NORMAL FUNCTIONING MAIL SERVER is as basic as being able to open your browser and get to the Web.
Now I have to download the Mercury Mail Server by David Harris and spend I-don't-know-how-many days figuring out how to run my own da*m mail server.
I TRULY FEEL DSLX OWES US A NEW PRICE ON OUR CONTRACTS FOR THIS DROP IN SERVICE -- a service which now has a MAIL SERVER WE CANNOT USE. That makes DSL worth next to NOTHING to me!! MAIL is HALF the service of an ISP!!
They said NOTHING WOULD CHANGE. THEY WERE 100% WRONG. | |
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dslx_gm
Premium,VIP
join:2002-12-26
Winnetka, CA
| Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! Hi remmian,
Please reference the post below. We have opted to leave up our SMTP servers and allow clients to use the legacy smtp.dslextreme.com servers. Though for most clients that use their standard @dslextreme.com email address we recommend using smtp.gmail.com, if there are special instances like yours, you are welcome to continue using smtp.dslextreme.com. That should resolve your issue.
»DSL Extreme SMTP Servers
Thanks | |
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remmian
@dslextreme.com | Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! Okay, now I feel like a jerk.
I apologize for my rant, and thank you for accommodating us. I had already downloaded a mail server and was about to figure out how to use it. | |
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| | | | OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17 | Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! Don't do that. Read carefully what's offered first. | |
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remmian
@dslextreme.com
| ... I hope that caveat ("the user will have to be in one of our local networks") doesn't mean using Webmail. I have no idea what statement is supposed to mean.
Meanwhile I'm going to reconfig my client with the old server and see if it works... | |
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| | | | OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
| Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! This means that because now they do not support old authentication on the old mail server anymore you must connect to it only from IPS network (read - from you home only). You can't connect mail server from other places anymore. You'll discover it in a hard way when you try to send a mail from your laptop, when you outside of your home. I'll be unpleasant discovery at the time when you urgently need it (and you thought that you can rely on you mail server), but suddenly you can't do anything...
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Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself... | |
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dslx_gm
Premium,VIP
join:2002-12-26
Winnetka, CA
2 edits | Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! Hi OZO,
I apologize, I must have overlooked that the authentication piece was your issue and that I had that included in my original post. I was speaking with our operations team this week with regards to leaving the mail authentication database active at least for grandfathered clients. It is still running normally and accounts are still being created there. I don't anticipate taking it down in and of the least for grandfathered clients that were on the platform prior to the migration to the new servers or someone that specifically requests it. As I said though, the SMTP servers (including SMTP authentication) are still running as they were before. Nothing has changed.
Thanks
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George
General Manager
DSL Extreme
Will work for reviews.  | |
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| | | | | | OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
| Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! Thank you for that word, dslx_gm 
said by dslx_gm :I don't anticipate taking it down in... Please let us know in advance if DSLE will going to change its plans with regard to the old SMTP servers.
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Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself... | |
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| | OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
| said by remmian :
Now I have to download the Mercury Mail Server by David Harris and spend I-don't-know-how-many days figuring out how to run my own da*m mail server.
That will give you a great experience in how mail system works. Running your own mail server (if you can do it 24/7) will give you easy and reliable way to fight any spam problem for your domains. I'm talking form my recent experience running my own mail server. I'm pleasantly surprised and even excited to see the right way to deal with it. Spam is rejected BEFORE it could be accepted by SMTP server. Spamers get error replies by server that they're not welcome to send anything to your domain before they even try to send something. After wasting their pressures time (they're always in a rush, if you watch the process) they give up and move on to the next SMTP server that accepts their trash...
I suppose that for your domains you use a mail forwarding service. Read this my post about how it may facilitate spaming of your domain accounts.
Finally, I may recommend hMailServer as your next SMTP server. It's free, simple and it works very well.
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Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself... | |
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remmian
@dslextreme.com
| Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! It sounds like everything is okay then. That is, if I understood you, DSLX_gm, the old servers *are* using authorization ... so we should be able to send mail from any network, right?
I'd like to add my 2 cents to OZO's request that customers be notified in advance of DSLX deciding (if they should) to take down the smtp.dslextreme.com server. | |
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remmain
@dslextreme.com
| PS To OZO: Thanks for that info. I have been tempted to run my own mail server at different times over the years, but now is not a particularly good time (at least not until after the election). I *do* prefer it be a choice and option, and not a necessity! 
I will check out the one you suggested for future use. I used Pegasus Mail (by David Harris) from circa 1993 until 6 months ago when I switched to Thunderbird, and David also wrote Mercury, so that's why I was going to give that one a try. (Also free.) But you've made hMailServer sound good. Thanks again. | |
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| | | | OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17 | Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! You're welcome!
And return back if you'll have any questions how to use it. | |
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remmian
@dslextreme.com
| Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! Thanks OZO.
A quick note here.... don't mean to throw a fly in the ointment, but when I conf'g my client with the smtp.dslextreme.com server, it worked without authentication. Which brought the caveat to mind. Unless it only asks for authentication on non-local requests? For some reason I assumed it would be one way or the other... that it would ask for authentication regardless, and serve both local and outside calls, or that it would never ask for authentication, and only serve local requests. IAC I added my username/passwd for good measure, hoping it will work when I'm not local. | |
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dslx_gm
Premium,VIP
join:2002-12-26
Winnetka, CA | Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! You are correct. If you are local on our network authentication isn't required. If you are not on our network authentication is required. | |
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| | | | | | | dickmead
join:1999-08-22
Pasadena, CA
 ·DSL EXTREME
1 edit | Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! Says DSLX_GM:
You are correct. If you are local on our network authentication isn't required. If you are not on our network authentication is required.
From within the network, I get:
2008-10-18 07:57:02 SMTP fail (HELO error! SMTP server: 66.51.205.17)
Manually it works. Automated from the router fails (above example)
Is it my router mail attempt at fault? | |
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OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
| One small caveat is that clients will need to be in one of our local networks in order to send mail through them.
It means that you can't send anything when you take your laptop to a library, to your friend, or to your business trip...
Sorry, I don't get it why? Why you don't support the old plain authentication as we used to use before?
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Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself... | |
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remmian
@dslextreme.com | Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! ARGH!! I also want to know why DSLX can't just leave the old smtp running as it was (SO BEAUTIFULLY I MIGHT ADD)??? | |
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remmian
@dslextreme.com | Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! FTR while I was writing my inquiry, you (OZO) were posting the answer! Thanks for explaining that! | |
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billpeck
Premium
join:2008-10-12
Poway, CA
·DSL EXTREME
| I stumbled upon remmian's post so tested one of my custom addresses and was shocked to find the same problem! I had only changed one non-dslx mail address so I changed the server back and fixed the problem. Thanks to remmian for pointing this out and thanks to dslx gm for leaving the outgoing dslx mail server up. I fully agree with remmian that I DO NOT want my dslx address going out on my other mail addresses. I have those addresses for various purposes and don't need them screwed up like that.
BTW, is google spying on us now?? | |
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remmian
@dslextreme.com
| Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! billpeck: I only wish I'd realized it sooner.
As for Google spying... I spent 5 years researching online privacy full time, (1995-2000), and as most anyone now knows, email is not considered private by any ISP, nor is there any expectation of privacy. This is commonly stated in the terms of service. It is often said you should not say anything in email that you wouldn't want published in a newspaper or shared on TV.
Additionally, Google is a huge company based around marketing, and marketing means profiling. In particular, Google is partnered with DoubleClick, the FIRST KING of poor privacy practices and aggressive profiling. The Google terms of service says:
"At Google we recognize that privacy is important. This Privacy Policy applies to all of the products, services and websites offered by Google Inc. or its subsidiaries or affiliated companies EXCEPT DoubleClick (DoubleClick Privacy Policy) and Postini (Postini Privacy Policy); collectively, Google’s “services”. "
In other words, whatever the Google Policy says it's only part of the picture and these other marketers' privacy policies are the rest of the picture... and being extremely familiar with DClick's history, forget about any notion of privacy. Their privacy policy basically states you don't have any privacy, couched in language intended to give the opposite impression. Whether or not this has any bearing on mail passing through Google servers, who knows, REGARDLESS of what the respective privacy policies say!
So while you might enjoy a small expectation of some modicum of privacy on a smaller, private mail server like DSLXs, (which is exactly why I LIKED DSLX!), for your own best interest I'd personally recommend that you assume NO expectation of privacy AT ALL with gmail or Google services. AFAIC all information provided them -- anything that passes through their servers -- is subject to multiple types of analysis from profiling-type software and possibly other filters looking for potentially harmful or illegal material that Google wants to protect itself against. (Don't forget, Google gives email addresses for free to the general public. That opens them up to a lot more risk than DSLX, and that also means more aggressive monitoring.)
I only wish I would have known that I could have kept the DSLX mail server all along. I never wanted any of my personal information passed to, or through, Google. They are a good search engine. That's it AFAIC. | |
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remmian
@dslextreme.com | Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! PS Also meant to mention that all personal email should be encrypted, if you are concerned about privacy. | |
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| | billpeck
Premium
join:2008-10-12
Poway, CA | Thanks for the info and recommendations. My question was more concerned with the marketing side than the e-mail privacy side. Seems everyone wants to "ad" me to death! Has anyone coined a good term for that yet? (ie targeted ads vs general spam) | |
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Zak_D_H
Premium,VIP
join:2007-01-04
Salt Lake City, UT | Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! Hi billpeck
adware? | |
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dslx_gm
Premium,VIP
join:2002-12-26
Winnetka, CA
| said by billpeck :Has anyone coined a good term for that yet? (ie targeted ads vs general spam) I think that is is commonly referred to as Gray Mail. Those would be things like emails from Expedia after you purchase a flight from them. Some people want and don't mind them while others don't. »www.ceas.cc/2007/papers/paper-79.pdf | |
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| | | | billpeck
Premium
join:2008-10-12
Poway, CA | Re: smtp.gmail server CHANGES From & Reply headers! How about "gsmack"? | |
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