Re: Money for this will be hard to get

Re: Money for this will be hard to get

said by bent

:

Since this is a overtly political thread, I'd just like to remind everyone that there was a budget surplus at the end of the Clinton years.

True. I figured that once Hillary Clinton became president, we could go back to the good old days of the 1990s, right?

Oh, wait a minute.

said by bent

:

This the technological direction of this country needs to be more Google-like and less M$-like.

How are the two companies any different? Both seek to make maximum profit for their shareholders.

--
"At the moment of conception."

permalink · 2008-10-20 19:13:03 · Print ·

bent not broken Premium join:2004-10-04 Loveland, CO clubs: ·Comcast Formerly ..	Re: Money for this will be hard to get said by pnh102 : How are the two companies any different? Both seek to make maximum profit for their shareholders. The philosophies of how they go about doing that are vastly different. -- »www.lp.org/issues/family-budget "That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau
	permalink · 2008-10-20 19:18:57 · Print ·

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Re: Money for this will be hard to get

said by bent

said by pnh102

:

How are the two companies any different? Both seek to make maximum profit for their shareholders.

The philosophies of how they go about doing that are vastly different.

Are they different? I don't think so. It is just that they are at different phases of the same reality - creating a monopoly. Microsoft is at the phase where they are trying to protect their gains and slow the descent. Google is still in the expansion phase and just now is drawing the attention of anti-trust regulators around the world. They are 2 sides of the same coin separated by ten years of history.
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permalink · 2008-10-20 19:25:50 · Print ·

pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD ·Comcast	Re: Money for this will be hard to get said by TKJunkMail : They are 2 sides of the same coin separated by ten years of history. Google is also smart enough to get in bed with the politicians before any bogus anti-trust lawsuits can be filed. -- "At the moment of conception."
	permalink · 2008-10-20 19:40:14 ·

bent not broken Premium join:2004-10-04 Loveland, CO clubs: ·Comcast Formerly ..	I'm not so sure... who exactly did Google steal the search engine from? -- »www.lp.org/issues/family-budget "That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau
	permalink · 2008-10-20 19:45:02 ·

pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD ·Comcast	Re: Money for this will be hard to get said by bent : I'm not so sure... who exactly did Google steal the search engine from? According to your link, Bill Gates stole DOS from no one. He paid the original creator a sum of money in exchange for the rights to the OS and then modified it as he saw fit. None of this is illegal, much less "stealing." -- "At the moment of conception."
	permalink · 2008-10-20 19:47:42 · Print ·

bent not broken Premium join:2004-10-04 Loveland, CO clubs:	Re: Money for this will be hard to get So because I paid you money for pirated software, that makes my copy legit? Don't think so.
	permalink · 2008-10-20 20:22:05 ·

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Re: Money for this will be hard to get

said by bent

:

So because I paid you money for pirated software, that makes my copy legit? Don't think so.

Of course it doesn't. But Bill, nor the company from which he purchased QDOS, did not pirate anything.

Besides, quite a bit of popular open-source, zero cost software has been developed using the same methods that the company which made QDOS used. It may not have been pirated, but it was emulated quite well.

--
"At the moment of conception."

permalink · 2008-10-20 20:26:18 · Print ·

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said by bent

:

I'm not so sure... who exactly did Google steal the search engine from?

And Google didn't create the "search engine". They built on earlier search engine technologies. Patent infringement anyone? Google has had to defend themselves in court on that issue already.

And Google has bought up more companies for their technology(search & otherwise) than Microsoft ever did.
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permalink · 2008-10-20 20:15:17 · Print ·

mahony join:2000-06-24 Modesto, CA 1 edit	Re: Money for this will be hard to get Just curious as to where you get your facts? Seems like more then business week is wrong. MS has purchased many more companies then Google. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co···poration »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Go···isitions
	permalink · 2008-10-20 20:42:49 ·

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·Shaw

Perhaps you should listen to Tim Paterson's interview on BBC concerning Microsoft's acquisition of QDOS/DOS. Tim was the original author so if anyone should know the real story its him.

»www.patersontech.com/Downloads/T···nBBC.mp3

He certainly had/has no problems with Microsoft's acquisition of his OS and Microsoft even worked with them (Seattle Computer Products) for about a year helping them develop/finish it before acquiring it. While it might have proven over the years to have been a good business move, it certainly wasn't as 'evil' as people might think and Tim certainly doesn't have any regrets about it.

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permalink · 2008-10-20 20:56:34 · Print ·

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Re: Money for this will be hard to get

My question would be how much of DOS was CP/M, and was CP/M public domain at that point? Wikipedia claims that there were several important resemblances, and I had always heard the same. We had a proto-pc in our house that ran CP/M off of 8" floppies before IBM started selling PCs with DOS. I was pretty young at the time, but an end user would be pressed to tell the difference between between the two. Did Seattle Computer Products purchase that code from Digital Research?

From the above link:
"CP/M-86 was expected to be the standard operating system of the new IBM PCs, but DRI and IBM were unable to negotiate development and licensing terms. IBM turned to Microsoft instead, and Microsoft delivered PC-DOS based on a CP/M "clone," 86-DOS. Although CP/M-86 became an option for the IBM PC after DRI threatened legal action, it never overtook Microsoft's system."

That whole deal sounded shady as hell to me when I first heard about it, and it still does.

Sorry to derail the thread so horribly, but mentioning Cerf and Ballmer in the same context was asking for it

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permalink · 2008-10-20 21:46:16 · Print ·

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Re: Money for this will be hard to get

said by bent

:

Sorry to derail the thread so horribly, but mentioning Cerf and Ballmer in the same context was asking for it

Suggesting either for this position is insane as I would hope there is someone who is without commercial influence and could find and make the decisions that would best serve all concerned and given this is a government type position serve the public first and foremost. Certainly I would rather have someone from a purely academic background as they would tend to be a little freer of such influences, but yet know the issues and technology etc.

Blake
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permalink · 2008-10-20 23:08:45 · Print ·

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Re: Money for this will be hard to get

said by Link Logger

:

Suggesting either for this position is insane as I would hope there is someone who is without commercial influence and could find and make the decisions that would best serve all concerned and given this is a government type position serve the public first and foremost. Certainly I would rather have someone from a purely academic background as they would tend to be a little freer of such influences, but yet know the issues and technology etc.

Blake

The flip side to that is that people from purely academic environs can be out of touch with the business world that drives technology adoption. I'm not saying that's always the case, but...
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permalink · 2008-10-20 23:19:54 · Print ·

KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK	It was shady. DOS was CP/M with very minor modifications.
	permalink · 2008-10-21 03:33:38 ·

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said by bent

:

I'm not so sure... who exactly did Google steal the search engine from?

According to O'Bama's support of HR4137, O'Bama feels infringing someone's deployed creation is stealing.

So then, the answer to your question is,
ask jeeves
altavista
dogpile
vivisimo
lycos
alltheweb
hotbot
webcrawler
infoseek
looksmart
wisenut
yahoo!
einet galaxy
excite
virtual library
rsbe
wwwworm
aliweb
veronica
archie
smart

to name a few.

NV
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permalink · 2008-10-20 23:41:01 · Print ·

bent
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Re: Money for this will be hard to get

I'm not sure what you're implying by your list of Googles competition, but I really doubt that Google blatantly ripped off an OS and sold it as their own.

This is the sort of thing I associate with Google:

"After the company's IPO in August 2004, it was reported that founders Sergey Brin and Larry Page, and CEO Eric Schmidt, requested that their base salary be cut to US$1.00. Subsequent offers by the company to increase their salaries have been turned down, primarily because, "their primary compensation continues to come from returns on their ownership stakes in Google. As significant stockholders, their personal wealth is tied directly to sustained stock price appreciation and performance, which provides direct alignment with stockholder interests." Prior to 2004, Schmidt was making US$250,000 per year, and Page and Brin each earned a salary of US$150,000."

Big brass balls, and the smarts to back them up. How many other CEOs of C-corps do you know of that have done that?
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permalink · 2008-10-21 01:52:53 · Print ·

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Re: Money for this will be hard to get

said by bent

:

I'm not sure what you're implying by your list of Googles competition, but I really doubt that Google blatantly ripped off an OS and sold it as their own.

On that note, do you think Linus Torvalds, Dr. Andrew Tannenbaum, Richard Stallman and the numerous other individuals who wrote open source software that mimicked the operation of commercially available software should be labeled as software pirates?
--
"At the moment of conception."

permalink · 2008-10-21 09:34:43 · Print ·

bent not broken Premium join:2004-10-04 Loveland, CO clubs: ·Comcast Formerly ..	Re: Money for this will be hard to get I think there's a difference between "borrowing" good ideas that work and outright theft of code. I mean c'mon... they didn't even bother to change the A:\> prompt. -- »www.lp.org/issues/family-budget "That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau
	permalink · 2008-10-21 11:52:42 ·

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Re: Money for this will be hard to get

said by bent

:

I think there's a difference between "borrowing" good ideas that work and outright theft of code.

But again, simply recoding someone else's idea is not the same as stealing their code. There's a million different ways to write a "Hello, world!" program and if a million people wrote said program in a unique way they might be borrowing one another's good ideas but they are not stealing each other's code.

said by bent

:

I mean c'mon... they didn't even bother to change the A:\> prompt.

If you really want to be that detailed you could say the same thing about Minix and Linux. They use the same prompt style as the old commercial Unix did prior to AT&T's liberating it in the 1990s.
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permalink · 2008-10-21 12:59:07 · Print ·

Noah Vail
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2 edits

said by bent

:

...I really doubt that Google blatantly ripped off an OS and sold it as their own.

Of Course Not.
They ripped off several different search engines and presented Google as their own creation.

said by bent

:

This is the sort of thing I associate with Google:

"After the company's IPO in August 2004, it was reported that founders...blah, blah, blah... requested that their base salary be ...blah, blah, blah... primarily because, "their primary compensation continues... blah, blah, blah... As significant stockholders, their personal wealth ...blah, blah, blah... stock price appreciation and performance, ...blah, blah, blah... US$250,000 per year,...blah"

Ah, yes. Hmmmm.

said by bent

:

Big brass balls, and the smarts to back them up. How many other CEOs of C-corps do you know of that have done that?

Well these guys seem to belong to that crowd.

Lehman Brothers CEO Richard Fuld Jr. $34 million in 2007

Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein $70 million last year. Co-Chief Operating Officers Gary Cohn and Jon Winkereid were paid $72.5 million and $71 million, respectively.

Bears Sterns former chair Jimmy Cayne received $60 million

AIG chief executive Martin Sullivan got $14 million compensation package.
Robert Willumstad received $7 million for three months.

Morgan Stanley Chair John Mack earned $1.6 million + stock. CFO Colin Kelleher got a $21 million paycheck in 2007.

Countrywide Financial's CEO Angelo Mozilo's total take is over $400 million.

Merrill Lynch's Stanley Neal, was given a package of $160 Million.

Fannie Mae's CEO Daniel Mudd received $11.6 million in 2007.
Freddie Mac's CEO Richard Syron, brought in $18 million.

Wachovia Corp. CEO G. Kennedy Thompson received $21 million in 2007.

Washington Mutual's CEO Alan Fishman gets a salary and incentive package worth more than $20 million through 2009.

Since Testicles and brains seem to be the true measure of a man, these guys got 'em in spades.

There aren't enough trophies to go around.

NV
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permalink · 2008-10-21 22:03:08 · Print ·

bent
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Re: Money for this will be hard to get

I think you inadvertently made my point for me. The douchebags you listed are execs who did the opposite of what Googles did. Now list for us the execs who received $0 in 2007...

In order to insert all those "blahs" you must have read and understood, no?

edit for typo
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permalink · 2008-10-22 13:28:11 ·

Noah Vail Premium join:2004-12-10 Lorton, VA ·RoadRunner Cable	Re: Money for this will be hard to get Actually, I believe your criteria for most excellent CEO dude were said by bent : Big brass balls, and the smarts to back them up. Of which the aforementioned financial wizards, are fully possessed. Perhaps, upon reflection, you have revised criteria for most excellent CEO dude? NV -- Abortion: A Republican Plot to Thin the Liberal Herd.
	permalink · 2008-10-22 17:40:23 · Print ·

bent not broken Premium join:2004-10-04 Loveland, CO clubs: ·Comcast Formerly ..	Re: Money for this will be hard to get Haw! Where's the balls in suckering a board into giving you millions regardless of your performance? The testicular capacity comes in to play tying your remuneration solely to the failure or success of your company. -- »www.lp.org/issues/family-budget "That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau
	permalink · 2008-10-22 18:04:41 ·

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Re: Money for this will be hard to get

said by bent

:

Haw! Where's... balls... suckering... board... giving... millions... of... performance... testicular... comes... to... tying... remuneration... to... failure... success... your company.

Ah.
I thought you might want to alter your conclusion a bit,
once it was revealed
the company it kept.

NV
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permalink · 2008-10-23 02:56:59 · Print ·

bent not broken Premium join:2004-10-04 Loveland, CO clubs: ·Comcast Formerly ..	Re: Money for this will be hard to get Company? How do you figure? I'm having trouble drawing any parallels between those guys and their companies and the Google execs I mentioned and their company. Clue me in? -- »www.lp.org/issues/family-budget "That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau
	permalink · 2008-10-23 16:48:43 ·

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Re: Money for this will be hard to get

said by bent

:

Company? How do you figure? I'm having trouble drawing any parallels between those guys and their companies and the Google execs I mentioned and their company. Clue me in?

You gave testicles and brains (in that order) as the qualifiers for great leaders of companies.

I gave other examples of men with the same, 'gifts' and the wealth those 'gifts' earned for them.

That would be the parallel.

NV
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permalink · 2008-10-23 17:23:44 · Print ·

bent
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Re: Money for this will be hard to get

I guess you're of the opinion that it's better to be to a nutless idiot?

I didn't state those as the qualifiers, only qualities I admire. That really brings be back to my original point, which was to illustrate the differences between Google and some other companies. Your list got millions for dereliction, and those Googles execs fortunes rise and fall with the fortunes of their company. Last time I checked, Google wasn't begging like pauper, unlike NY financial firms.
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permalink · 2008-10-23 18:01:42 · Print ·

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Re: Money for this will be hard to get

said by bent

:

I guess you're of the opinion that it's better to be to a nutless idiot?

You can guess that, if that's what you want. I've offered no opinion on the matter.

said by bent

:

I didn't state those as the qualifiers, only qualities I admire.

And I offered other men who have those qualities you admire.

said by bent

:

That really brings be back to my original point, which was to illustrate the differences between Google and some other companies. Your list got millions for dereliction, and those Googles execs fortunes rise and fall with the fortunes of their company. Last time I checked, Google wasn't begging like pauper, unlike NY financial firms.

It IS curious why you would choose qualities that align Google with the very folks you are trying to separate them from.

NV
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permalink · 2008-10-23 18:09:43 · Print ·

bent not broken Premium join:2004-10-04 Loveland, CO clubs:	Re: Money for this will be hard to get If those guys had any brains, they would have kept their cash cows alive.
	permalink · 2008-10-23 20:24:19 ·

Noah Vail
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Re: Money for this will be hard to get

Ya know, now that we're at the end of this;
I'd like to say that I LIKE Google.
I have a gmail account, and I have turned hundreds of home pages from yahoo! or MSN to Google. Most have stayed.

I like Google because they bring me a superior product. Their search engine and it's careful attention to operators is second to none. I rarely find what I want on their first page; 20-40 is more likely. No one else yields the results I need at all.

I personally don't care for their cultural arrogance. They suffer a delusion, common on the left, that notoriety has somehow imbued them with political discernment. But they've been quiet of late and continue to bring me the finest web apps anywhere.

I do admire how they (and nearly they alone) have figured out that a cluttered startpage serves no good whatsoever.
In this, they employ wisdom.

NV
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permalink · 2008-10-24 00:06:00 · Print ·

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Re: Money for this will be hard to get

said by Noah Vail

:

I personally don't care for their cultural arrogance. They suffer a delusion, common on the left, that notoriety has somehow imbued them with political discernment.

I think it's pretty common on both sides, a perfectly normal human tendency to use the soapbox they happen to be perched on. I think we notice it a bit more when those soapboxed views don't align with our own.
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permalink · 2008-10-24 01:55:29 · Print ·

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Re: Money for this will be hard to get

said by bent

:

I think it's pretty common on both sides, a perfectly normal human tendency to use the soapbox they happen to be perched on. I think we notice it a bit more when those soapboxed views don't align with our own.

Nearly every A-list actor I can think of, has offered me direction in geo-climate, socioeconomic or global-financial events. They believe that the industry of entertainment has prepared them sufficiently to decide how the world powers should handle these things.

Can you come up with a counterpart on the Right,
where so many from one arena,
consistently offer expertise
on matters that are so wholly out of their field?

Because I'm afraid that I can't come up with one.

NV
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permalink · 2008-10-24 11:32:50 · Print ·

bent not broken Premium join:2004-10-04 Loveland, CO clubs:	Re: Money for this will be hard to get Ronnie and Arnie?
	permalink · 2008-10-25 00:28:50 ·

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