kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
 ·T-Mobile US
| Counter-balance for Joe...
... the Biden (not the Plumber - who isn't even a plumber etc.  )
Biden is so clueless he was always a fuckin' cheerleader for the illegal Hollywood-mob, the RIAA/MPAA mafia so it's refreshing to see someone smart and tech-savy on-board...
If true then Obama once again shows his very impressive ability to pick the right person and delegate him the right task. 
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[BQUOTE=[user=bicker]]Waaaa waaaa waaaa. You just want what you want and don't care to factor in what is right or true. Your perspectives are un-American, and deserve far more ridicule than I'm prepared to pile on them.
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
 ·Comcast
| said by kamm  :... the Biden (not the Plumber - who isn't even a plumber etc. ) Amazing how Joe The Plumber has been more vetted for public office by the media than Obama ever was.
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"At the moment of conception." |
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kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
·T-Mobile US
| said by pnh102 :said by kamm :... the Biden (not the Plumber - who isn't even a plumber etc. ) Amazing how Joe The Plumber has been more vetted for public office by the media than Obama ever was. Ehh? If you would watch other than FauxNews you would already know almost every minute of his life too... I, for one, know his background and past - but what do you know about Palin (other than she's a genuinely un-intelligent, ignorant phony)?
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[BQUOTE=[user=bicker]]Waaaa waaaa waaaa. You just want what you want and don't care to factor in what is right or true. Your perspectives are un-American, and deserve far more ridicule than I'm prepared to pile on them.
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by kamm :Ehh? If you would watch other than FauxNews you would already know almost every minute of his life too... I, for one, know his background and past - but what do you know about Palin (other than she's a genuinely un-intelligent, ignorant phony)? Well I do know that Obama is a bigot, as he attended a racist church for 20+ years. I also reach this conclusion based on how he describes "typical white people."
I also know that he's anti-American, based on who Obama calls friends, as well as his track record on voting against funding our troops.
I know he's a socialist, because he intends to raise everyone's taxes and "spread the wealth" (his own words).
I also know that Obama does not support free speech, which can be shown in how he decided to attack a private citizen who simply asked him a question about taxes. I also can't help but notice how his followers in MO are seeking to bring criminal charges against people who "lie" about him.
I know that Obama does not support our right to keep and bear arms, given his past votes in the IL senate and US senate.
I know that Obama supports infanticide, given that he repeatedly voted against bills that would provide medical care to survivors of abortion.
I also know that Gov. Palin has far more executive experience than Obama, McCain and Biden combined.
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"At the moment of conception." |
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
| My God you really have to do some research. Start at Factcheck.org for some unbiased details on every claim on all candidates.
- Obama may have been a member of that church, but doesn't agree with that particular rhetoric. Haven't you been in an organization where the figurehead said something or stood for something you didn't agree with, but stuck with it for other things?
- If you are talking about Ayers then you are REALLY living in a hole. As for the troops look into WHY he didn't vote for those bills instead of making a blanket generalization.
- Raise everyone's taxes? Lies. Also if you think it's socialism then you must be against just about every Government program out there since much of the taxpayer money pays for other people's roads, medicare, social security, social programs, education. Our government is all about spreading the wealth. Most governments are.
- If you are talking about Joe the Plumber he never attacked him. As a matter of fact he responded honestly to his question.
- Again look at why he voted as such. There is a difference in the right to bear arms and the desire to own weapons that go way beyond just self defense.
- Palin hasn't even finished her term as Governor. She was a mayor for a few years before that. You put that "experience" against McCain's and Biden's decades of service in the federal office?
/God I hope that last one is a sign that this is just a flamebait
//If so I really took the bait
///If not your Elephant undies are showing |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by SRFireside :- Obama may have been a member of that church, but doesn't agree with that particular rhetoric. Sorry, but if McCain had been a member of a wacko pro-white organization for 20 years, and only quit recently, there'd be no way he'd be able to say he didn't agree with the views of that wacko pro-white organization. So if Obama can prove that he slept through church on every Sunday he attended, then it is clear he willingly chose to agree with that church by attending and being a member of it. He also helped to secure federal funding for that church during his work as a Senator. So yes, he agrees with the church.
And by the way, Oprah Winfrey attended and left the same church for the reasons I cite.
said by SRFireside :Haven't you been in an organization where the figurehead said something or stood for something you didn't agree with, but stuck with it for other things? No. I do not choose to fund, work with or be involved with organizations that do not agree with my values. Most rational people don't either.
said by SRFireside :If you are talking about Ayers then you are REALLY living in a hole. How so? Ayers admitted he is an unrepentant terrorist. He continues to say, to this day, the he wished he could kill more people in his attacks. As it has been pointed out by others, Obama isn't 8 years old anymore, but he still chooses to be friends with people like Bill Ayers.
Here's another way of looking at it, what if Osama Bin Laden was still alive in 2041 and any American was friends with him. Do you really think that they could get away with saying something to the effect of "Osama attacked the USA way back in 2001. That was 40 years ago! Let it go!"
said by SRFireside : As for the troops look into WHY he didn't vote for those bills instead of making a blanket generalization. A vote is a vote. Unless Obama wants to say he voted against funding the troops before he voted for it.
said by SRFireside :Raise everyone's taxes? He supports letting the Bush tax cuts expire. That will raise everyone's taxes.
said by SRFireside :Also if you think it's socialism then you must be against just about every Government program ... I am against all of these things.
said by SRFireside :If you are talking about Joe the Plumber he never attacked him. As a matter of fact he responded honestly to his question. Then why are Obama's surrogates in the media digging up dirt on Joe the Plumber? Why are they making a big deal out of him? Why isn't Obama telling his surrogates to stop going after people like Joe the Plumber?
said by SRFireside :- Again look at why he voted as such. There is a difference in the right to bear arms and the desire to own weapons that go way beyond just self defense. There might be a difference as you say, but when did Obama ever vote against any form of gun control?
said by SRFireside :Palin hasn't even finished her term as Governor. She was a mayor for a few years before that. You put that "experience" against McCain's and Biden's decades of service in the federal office? LOL. And Obama hasn't even finished his first term as senator, during most of which he spent his time running for president.
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"At the moment of conception." |
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
| said by pnh102 : I do not choose to fund, work with or be involved with organizations that do not agree with my values.
Most rational people can compartmentalize issues that aren't important to them so they can take the gains. Remember this preacher's outspokenness about this one issue looks more like him going off on a tangent then being his congregation's credo. Only a few incidents are cited. If this was his message there would be a lot more evidence. Especially after 20 years. Looking at just ONE incident and making it the complete picture is misleading.
said by pnh102 :Obama isn't 8 years old anymore, but he still chooses to be friends with people like Bill Ayers. They were members of the same community group. You can't call that friendship. More like people who work together. There were several prominent republicans in the community who worked in the that group too. Are they terrorist-lovers?
said by pnh102 :Here's another way of looking at it, what if Osama Bin Laden was still alive in 2041 and any American was friends with him.
Ayers was a member of a radical group that TRIED to bomb a building and FAILED. He didn't organize that plan and wasn't part of it. Just part of the group and shared the same sentiment. Osama Bin Laden is the LEADER of a terrorist organization that has SUCCESSFULLY carried out many attacks for decades. Including the most horrible attack the U.S. has ever experienced. You are REALLY stretching it with this analogy.
said by pnh102 :A vote is a vote.
That's a very short-sighted way to look at it. A bill can come on the table that looks good on outside and has benefits on the surface, but is filled with devils in the details. You don't vote for a bill that helps one thing only to undermine another thing. You put your support on law that is put together the right way.
By the same token you can go through McCain's voting record and see he voted against bills that sound good on the outside, but he didn't agree with the details inside. Do you fault him on that also?
said by pnh102 :He supports letting the Bush tax cuts expire. That will raise everyone's taxes. That's only half the story. Taxes won't be raised for the vast majority of Americans. Actually there will be some additional tax cuts that can benefit over 90% of us. Look it up.
said by pnh102 :I am against all of these things. Then you would be against the Constitution. It says in the preamble "to promote the general welfare" of its citizens. I am guessing you just don't like government handouts. What are your thoughts then about government programs that promote businesses? Trickle down economics uses the same theory as other welfare programs.
said by pnh102 :Then why are Obama's surrogates in the media digging up dirt on Joe the Plumber?
For one Obama doesn't control the news. If you want to blame somebody blame McCain for bringing Joe up over and over again at the last debate. McCain and Palin both put Joe on the spotlight. It is only natural that he would get scrutinized. Remember nobody really cared about Joe when he made his comments to Obama. It only happened when McCain put him on the spotlight.
said by pnh102 :There might be a difference as you say, but when did Obama ever vote against any form of gun control? It shouldn't be about not ever voting against gun control. It should be more about what bills went on the table. If there were no super-restrictive gun control bills to vote against then what's there to compare. Did Obama have any say in the D.C. gun ban? That was a bad one so if he voted for it you got points for that.
said by pnh102 :And Obama hasn't even finished his first term as senator, during most of which he spent his time running for president. And you said Palin has more experience than all of them combined. Don't try and twist the subject. |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
1 edit | said by SRFireside :Remember this preacher's outspokenness about this one issue looks more like him going off on a tangent then being his congregation's credo. Only a few incidents are cited. If this was his message there would be a lot more evidence. Especially after 20 years. Looking at just ONE incident and making it the complete picture is misleading. I still wonder what Obama's former preacher said when the cameras were not turned on.
said by SRFireside :They were members of the same community group. You can't call that friendship. More like people who work together. Uh. I don't think most people would want to work with anyone that they knew was a terrorist!
said by SRFireside : There were several prominent republicans in the community who worked in the that group too. Are they terrorist-lovers? If this is true, then I suggest these people reconsider their associations if they want to avoid such a categorization.
said by SRFireside :Ayers was a member of a radical group that TRIED to bomb a building and FAILED. Incorrect.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_ayers···erground
said by SRFireside :Osama Bin Laden is the LEADER of a terrorist organization that has SUCCESSFULLY carried out many attacks for decades. Including the most horrible attack the U.S. has ever experienced. You are REALLY stretching it with this analogy. That is like saying that Ayers isn't as bad as Osama bin Laden (edit for clarity) simply because he did not kill enough people or do enough damage.
said by SRFireside :That's a very short-sighted way to look at it. And a correct one. Remember all the flack that Obama got for voting for telecom immunity?
said by SRFireside :By the same token you can go through McCain's voting record and see he voted against bills that sound good on the outside, but he didn't agree with the details inside. Do you fault him on that also? I agree 100%. And yes, I do fault McCain on some of the positions he's taken in this regard.
said by SRFireside :That's only half the story. Taxes won't be raised for the vast majority of Americans. Actually there will be some additional tax cuts that can benefit over 90% of us. Look it up. Even Obama's own campaign can't explain how he's going to cut taxes for 95% of Americans when only about half of Americans pay income taxes.
»www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe···G=Search
»www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe···G=Search
said by SRFireside :Then you would be against the Constitution. It says in the preamble "to promote the general welfare" of its citizens. Incorrect. The preamble does not list the delegated powers of government. Furthermore, it lists what "we the people" need to do, not the government.
said by SRFireside :What are your thoughts then about government programs that promote businesses? Trickle down economics uses the same theory as other welfare programs. Trickle down economics works. The economic gains experienced by this country since 1981 prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt. And it doesn't work by giving businesses handouts, but it works by allowing businesses and people to keep more of the money that they earned.
said by SRFireside :For one Obama doesn't control the news. But the media is on Obama's side, that is an indisputable, irrefutable fact. Why is it going after a private citizen who did nothing newsworthy in this regard?
said by SRFireside : If you want to blame somebody blame McCain for bringing Joe up over and over again at the last debate. And again, this does not make Joe a political figure worthy of having every last detail of his life dredged up for all the world to see.
said by SRFireside : McCain and Palin both put Joe on the spotlight. Incorrect. Joe simply asked Obama a question. I credit Obama for giving Joe an honest answer.
said by SRFireside : It is only natural that he would get scrutinized. Remember nobody really cared about Joe when he made his comments to Obama. It only happened when McCain put him on the spotlight. Then why is it that the losers that go on parade at the DNC every 4 years, the ones who complain that their lives "suck" and it is all the GOP's fault, do not receive similar scrutiny?
said by SRFireside :It shouldn't be about not ever voting against gun control. Of course not. No government has the right to infringe on the gun rights of law abiding Americans. Obama had no business voting for any sort of gun control which goes after law abiding people.
said by SRFireside :And you said Palin has more experience than all of them combined. That's exactly what I said. Gov. Palin has more executive experience than all of them combined.
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"At the moment of conception." |
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cajundsl
cajundsl Denver Qwest
join:2003-02-05
Denver, CO
| reply to kamm
said by kamm :...If true then Obama once again shows his very impressive ability to pick the right person and delegate him the right task. Like James A. Johnson, who was chosen by Obama to chair his vice-presidential selection committee, until it turned out that Johnson had accepted an illegal "sweetheart" loan from his buddy Angelo Mozillo at Countrywide Mortgage - before Countrywide went under; and who was a golden parachutist from United Health, and who fought for a friend's "right" to bail out of Fannie Mae under a golden chute...
Yeah, Obama sure can pick 'em.
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Mountain Time (GMT-7); Qwest DSL; 1.5 Mbps down, 600 kbps up |
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :I don't think most people would want to work with anyone that they knew was a terrorist! Ayers is a straw man argument. Obama is not cavorting with terrorists. You're not even attacking the man's character. You are attacking the man who used to work with the man's character.
"I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former room-mate."
"What's that make us?"
"Absolutely nothing."
Okay. He played part in bombing parts of buildings that affected their productivity. NOT in killing people. Big, VERY BIG difference. I don't agree with Ayers and don't condone his history or his apparent politics, but I'm not going to put this dime-store radical in the same league as Bin Laden.
said by pnh102 :Remember all the flack that Obama got for voting for telecom immunity? If I recall that bill was the best compromise that could be come up with that would get enough votes from both sides. You will need to ask Barack as to why he felt it was good enough.
said by pnh102 :Even Obama's own campaign can't explain how he's going to cut taxes for 95% of Americans when only about half of Americans pay income taxes. Another straw man argument that's nit picking at irrelevant details. The point is anybody making under $200K ($250k for families) won't get their taxes raised and there will be new incentives to lower taxes. You part of the group that don't pay taxes now? Hooray for you. Lots of people making less than a quarter million do pay taxes.
said by pnh102 :The preamble does not list the delegated powers of government. Furthermore, it lists what "we the people" need to do, not the government. And the government is by the people, of the people and for the people. More nit picking. Can't really fault you on this one considering you simply have a hard line on this issue. I think you're oversimplifying a pretty complicated balance on the governments involvement with the community.
said by pnh102 :And it doesn't work by giving businesses handouts, but it works by allowing businesses and people to keep more of the money that they earned. How do you explain the many government subsidies to big businesses as anything other than handouts or ways to sustain the trickle down support? They aren't tax breaks. It's money given to companies outside of tax returns.
said by pnh102 :Why is it going after a private citizen who did nothing newsworthy in this regard? Again. McCain made him newsworthy. You make someone a celebrity then they get their lives dug up. That's the nature (and problem) of fame and the media. Like I said. When Joe asked Obama that question Barack didn't make a spotlight out of it. McCain made it, and continues to make it, a strong talking point on his campaign. McCain created the exposure that the media is feeding on right now. Is it right? No. But it's not Obama's doing.
said by pnh102 :Then why is it that the losers that go on parade at the DNC every 4 years, the ones who complain that their lives "suck" and it is all the GOP's fault, do not receive similar scrutiny? Asked and answered more than once.
said by pnh102 :Obama had no business voting for any sort of gun control which goes after law abiding people. You are going to have to show me what bills he voted for that specifically go after law abiding people. I don't think Obama ever written or sponsored any gun control bill. He may have given his vote, but don't make it sound like he's the crusader against firearms.
said by pnh102 :That's exactly what I said. Gov. Palin has more executive experience than all of them combined. How do you figure less than four years as governor, mayor for fours years and city council member for four years more experience than Biden's (in the Senate since 1970) and McCain's (in the senate since 1080). You can say Palin has more experience in office than Obama (although eight years teaching constitutional law at the University of Chicago has to amount for something), but to say she has more executive experience than all three is ludicrous. and BTW George W Bush's only experience was four years as Governor (with part of that time campaigning for President). Did you vote for him?
This is getting old. I have no illusions that I will change your mind about the guy. You seem too ingrained in the rhetoric. As a matter of fact early in the race it was going to be tough for me as McCain is the best the Republican party has to offer. If Hillary Clinton was the Democratic nominee I would definitely have gone McCain (she is too divisive). But McCain's campaign has disappointed me.
You have every right to endorse McCain and I respect that because he's a good choice, but get over the Obama smear tactics. If you want to criticize the candidate keep on the issues. |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by SRFireside :Ayers is a straw man argument. Obama is not cavorting with terrorists. You're not even attacking the man's character. How is this a straw man argument? Ayers is an unrepentant terrorist. Obama cavorts with him. These are 2 irrefutable facts.
said by SRFireside :He played part in bombing parts of buildings that affected their productivity. NOT in killing people. Big, VERY BIG difference. I highly doubt that Ayers and his pals checked their targets to make sure no people were present when they attacked.
Except for the fact that Ayers wished that he had killed more people. His recent attempts to hide that sentiment behind efforts to end the Viet Nam war are laughable at best and fool no one.
said by SRFireside :Another straw man argument that's nit picking at irrelevant details. Mathematically speaking, if only 40% or so of Americans pay income tax, then it is impossible to cut income tax for 95% of Americans, as Obama claims he wants to do.
said by SRFireside :And the government is by the people, of the people and for the people. More nit picking. How is it nitpicking when that is what the text of the document itself says?
said by SRFireside :You are going to have to show me what [gun control] bills he voted for that specifically go after law abiding people. I don't think Obama ever written or sponsored any gun control bill. Simply consult any NRA or other pro-gun group for the information you need. To be fair, the NRA did give McCain a "C" grade on this issue. Furthermore, the NRA does indeed support Democrats who are pro-gun.
said by SRFireside :... but get over the Obama smear tactics. It is not a smear if it is true. Everything I've stated is based on fact. I'm not twisting anything. Obama's record speaks for itself.
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"At the moment of conception." |
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
| said by pnh102 :How is this a straw man argument? Because Ayers has nothing to do with Obama's policies or political stance. Because no other connection other than their working on the same project in Chicago have come up. Show me proof they "cavort" together, because aside from what was mentioned before I have seen nothing.
said by pnh102 :Ayers is an unrepentant terrorist. Obama cavorts with him. These are 2 irrefutable facts. Both are not. Read below...
said by pnh102 :I highly doubt that Ayers and his pals checked their targets to make sure no people were present when they attacked. Thanks for assuming someone intend for them. Especially when you have too much bias. Sneaking in a building after hours and planting bomb's in areas nobody goes to in the first place are pretty good signs they weren't trying to kill anybody. Sure somebody "could" be there. That's why it's illegal and stupid. But it's a far cry from intent or actual murder (since nobody did get hurt aside from the radicals themselves).
said by pnh102 :Except for the fact that Ayers wished that he had killed more people. His recent attempts to hide that sentiment behind efforts to end the Viet Nam war are laughable at best and fool no one. Now you are putting words in his mouth? Show me the ENTIRE transcript of what he said, when he said it and what were the questions asked to him that made those responses. The Wiki article you sent me pretty much debunks your claim since his comments were made BEFORE 9/11 and were posted just after the attack.
said by pnh102 :Mathematically speaking, if only 40% or so of Americans pay income tax, then it is impossible to cut income tax for 95% of Americans, as Obama claims he wants to do. Still nit picking. The point is 95% of Americans won't get a tax increase. If you really want to go this route I can pick apart McCain's claims with just as much scrutiny over technicalities as you are. And you would call me the nit-picker.
said by pnh102 :How is it nitpicking when that is what the text of the document itself says? Because you are twisting the words around. Which is why I added the text you left out. "We the people..." "A government by the people...". Get it?
said by pnh102 :It is not a smear if it is true. Everything I've stated is based on fact. Obama's record speaks for itself. Not everything. Much of what you have put on the table is either conjecture or misdirection. You keep pushing the relationship with Ayers, but there are no reports of the two laughing it at happy hour anywhere. You can't argue the tax proposal from Obama so you try and play 'gotcha' on a technicality. You elude that Obama is an anti-gun advocate because he voted in favor of some gun control, but don't bring any evidence of him crusading against guns.
You want to not agree with him taxing the top 5% more? Fine. You want to disagree with his votes on those gun control bills he voted for? More power to you. You can disagree with his political stance all you want and you won't get any objection from me. But that's not what you're really doing. You are playing guilt by association, discrediting by misdirection, even avoiding the facts that don't suit you. These are the exact reasons why I no longer consider McCain a valid candidate.
If McCain just went in with his plan for America. Tell us what he would do to bring us back in the right direction, and stick with that instead of character assassinations. I would have a much harder time choosing who to vote for. I say again. Go to Factcheck.org for all of those claims you make (you don't have to worry about partisanship because Dick Cheney himself endorses the site). Find out which ones are REALLY the truth and which ones are spin.
I am pretty much finished with this thread. Three replies from you and you keep saying the same thing, which makes me repeat myself too. No point in going round robin with this. |
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