said by SSX4life :

Looks like I touched several nerves.....

All I have to say is, to the ground!

said by Frozencpu :

I dont disagree with you making that statment but for example taking into the play that same Ret paladin with no form of CC wont be able to deal with 2 people at same time, where locks,mages,rogues can. But were talking about skill here. Most of the QQ came from just like the topic says nerf Ret. I am just making a point at which everyone got something sweet up in their sleve to show in PvP match up after 3.0 not just Ret paladins.

said by drew :

You must be new to 3.0.

No one things Locks are over powered now.

said by Frozencpu :

I would say lock since their OP and everyone will QQ about it too and not like its hard to roll youre face on keyboard:)

said by Frozencpu :

Ok guys you still on QQ part which has been going around ever since the patch well i understand all you lil boy and girls crying about pallys and how he did that and he did this and all the blah blah blah.

First let me introduce my self that i have been Ret since pre BC but i was fortunate enough to be loved in my guild and had an oportunity to raid. Here is what i think about all this QQ. I was also a beta tester for wrath and have tested alot of things out. Now so you dont all jump me here with youre lil QQ jokes i do agree that Ret is a bit OP in PvP but that only depends how good you actually can be. Here is an example of a few matches that i have played last night in 2v2 and 3v3.

We had played 40 games in around 1700 bracket we won about 30 games and lost 10. The folks that we lost too were 2000 rated comp teams like Mage/Rogue my favorite cuz i cant do shit agains those 2 in any shape of form me being OP as all you guys say. This is the team that has CC control over anyone in the bracket. Also teams we lost too by me like you all say FACEROLL were holy paly/warrior and priest/hunter or priest/rogue. Were basicly a mana fight and even then hunters and rogue work their CC to some point of extinction. Now i am no master of Arena but i have been playing this game long enough to undestand the mechanics of other classes do's and dont's but thats not why i am here trying to shine some ligh on you lil boys and girls that are running in fear when they see a Ret paladin in distance.

In any comp agains a ret pally you just got a have some ballz and CC skills to make that paly bubble and surive his shield and then its cake really for anyone to murder me in 5-8 secs time. Which has been done many times last night by alot of diffrent comps mainly CC comps. That just proves the point of where we cant be OP in all the situations and specially the ones that can heal agains that dmg i do while i am running out of mana.

Oh and one last thing before i go. I just want it to say that blizz hot fixed things allready and i dont think there gona put much work into fixing the 70 class before the wrath goes live since were back where we started prior to 3.0 but only with some burst dmg left to take away with that stun so i dont see how it can be that dificult for folks that PvP now a days on higher scale to be able to defeat Ret with out even putting much skill to it.

Farewell everyone and i see you in Wrath on my DK.

said by Tehuno :

to be fair, rogues are hitting 6-7k ambushes on 400+ resil clothies all day long. Not a whole lot of reason to stunlock when you can take over 50% of your opponents health off in your opener.

said by d_advocate :

It does matter. Its not a little faster, its 2-3 times faster. The stun as it stands at 50 second CD (its much worse when they can stun you for 6 seconds every 20) isn't the root of the issue so nerfing the stun will not solve the problem. The problem as already been determined by blizz is the amount of burst damage they can put out while their victim is stunned, which is why that aspect was nerfed. No one is really complaining about ret pally's 1v1 in duels, people are complaining because in BGs/arenas, they just roll through people. A rogue pulling off a full 100-0 stunlock or a warlock pulling off a 100-0 fear in a crowded area is not something you see everyday, even in pug BGs someone is bound to interrupt their long chain in which everything has to go correctly. A pally blowing someone up in 1 hammer happens about every 50 seconds per pally.

said by Kevlar :

THANK you for saying this :)

Happens to me as well (admittedly with poor gear at around 260 resil) but still....

Nerf locks!!!

....and stunlocking rogues.....and mana burning priests.....and kiting hunters......and...and...

well you get the idea :)

said by rawwhide :

It doesn't matter that the battle isn't won in 5, 10, 15, or even 20 seconds, it's the fact that you can stun lock a person from 100-0. CC in pvp should be non existent. Fears, cyclones, roots, and stuns should all be gone imho. The argument and crying is about stunned from 100-0 with paladins. They aren't doing anything different than rogues besides the 100-0 is a little faster.

said by Dropper :

My problem with this is not getting spanked in BGs or Arena. My problem with this is where have all the healers gone!!! :D

said by elboricua :

People QQ about the bubble. rather than do some of the planned nerfs, like no more attacking while bubbled, why not change the mechanic of the bubble to mimic a warriors shield wall. Only healer and prot pallies would be able to use it as Ret uses a giant 2 hander.

Sigh, I really like the dps my tankadin was putting out and I am going to sad to see it go. It really helps with dailies. I can do QD in about 40 minutes now solo as opposed to an hour to an hour and ten minutes. I'll be bugging people again to group up for simple things just because it takes so long to kill stuff.

said by DownLow :

Please let over the bubble..it isn't god-mode!

hat is why priests are so deadly to Pally - mass dispel, fear and mana burn.

said by d_advocate :

I'm not how sure how blatant you're expecting, but If you've read Ghostcrawler's post about the ret nerf, its pretty much a "we screwed the pooch, sorry."

I'm sorry but your last sentence basically rendered your argument moot. The reason people say you can "faceroll" as a ret pally is because they are so utterly simple. Its not hard to figure out what a ret pally is going to do. No amount of experience or leet pvp skill will let you counter a near 100 - 0 stun lock. Its silly if the only way to not die within one hammer of justice is to trinket out of it. What do you do when the second hammer comes 50 seconds (soon to be 20 seconds) later? How do you kite someone who has cleanse, bof, pursuit of justice, seal of justice, and can repentence you, which you can't trinket out of since your saving that for the hammer?

said by JIGA :

My Rogue, sure, I can stun lock you from 100-0 but the battle isn't won in >5 seconds.

said by Dodge :

So what exactly did you want, a hybrid outdoing a pure class?!?

said by Dodge :

So what exactly did you want, a hybrid outdoing a pure class?!? Great idea, while we are at it, I want heals on my mage and lock, I want plate and bubble on my rogue and basically everyone plays the same class with the only difference being the haircut, except I want my toon to be OP!

said by Dodge :

So what exactly did you want, a hybrid outdoing a pure class?!? Great idea, while we are at it, I want heals on my mage and lock, I want plate and bubble on my rogue and basically everyone plays the same class with the only difference being the haircut, except I want my toon to be OP!

said by P Ness :

said by DownLow :

Gee advocate, don't like pally hammer stuns? Ever fight a druid and spend the whole fight in a cyclone?

said by Archivis :

NERF JIGA AAAAAAARGH

said by d_advocate :

I'm not how sure how blatant you're expecting, but If you've read Ghostcrawler's post about the ret nerf, its pretty much a "we screwed the pooch, sorry."

said by Integrator :

In all my years of playing this game, I have never read a post by blue that stated blatantly-----we made a mistake.

said by rawwhide :

This is the problem that plagues servers and pvp. You had never thought about fighting paladins before, get your HK and move on to the next kill. You might have changed your tune from crying to "Lets do this"! For the vast majority of others they don't want to do anything more than just faceroll paladins, hence all the crying. They still want that easy HK from paladins. It went from them owning paladins to getting owned by paladins. Instead of figuring out how to play against the new and improved paladins, people just cried nerf this and nerf that. I will admit that in pvp a ret maybe OP, but I dont know since I dont pvp much.

said by SSX4life :

Fu*king ridiculous .... I'm stunned from 100 to 0 and I even got the jump on the bastard.

Full T6 with glaves (pve spec)... popped everything I got hammered / stunned a 2nd time / then dead.

I'm sorry but last time I checked rogues were the stun class, and yes I know they are not balanced properly @ 70 but this is just crazy stupid.

I get the jump on him and he is still at over 50% health. /sigh

said by SuicideBob :

I just thought it was fun to go up against a class that I never put a lot of thought into before.

said by Integrator :

All I want is balance

said by Integrator :

If you cannot admit that a retadin is rolling people at this time in the game, then you are not interested in balance.

said by rawwhide :

People were able to faceroll paladins before, now they have to actually think about how to play against them, so everyone cried OP!!

said by Archivis :

Yeah, I think that this latest hit is going to hit them hard. I guess they just don't like paladins being competitive. Over the top? Could have been.

What I really think it was, is that paladins were never really a threat so people never realy had to learn how to play against them. A ret paladin was not difficult to go up against. Their damage was really no different than an arms warrior in your face. Instead of a stun, they had a mortal strike. Instead of a bubble, they had cooldowns that could be blown.

said by JIGA :

I'm no pro at WoW but I can hold my own with my Rogue and Hunter. No real beef against Paladins, but it is kind of SUCKING ASS when we are constantly seeing 6+ paladins in EOTS/AB/WSG now... When those guys work together... good god is it hard to take them out. Mostly you just see your group members take dirt naps.

All of the players dusted off their paladins and respecced.

said by Archivis :

But there are some of us who are just awesome at everything we put our hands on.

said by drew :

Every alt-o-holic that has a LOT of level capped characters of different classes is almost always terrible at most of them. It's taking "jack of all trades, master of none" to a large scale.

said by Archivis :

Doesn't change what I said. Also, multiple 70's means you have more time, not more skill.

said by Lledwyn :

I'm not terribly worried about it. I've got 70s of every class out there right now, except huntard. I've been playing Wow since it was in beta (the original beta). I know how to play, thank you.

Just because I have a ret paladin (Who, mind you, has been ret for the past 2 arena seasons and not just FOTM), doesn't mean that rolling my face on my keyboard is how I play the game.

said by Lledwyn :

I'm not terribly worried about it. I've got 70s of every class out there right now, except huntard. I've been playing Wow since it was in beta (the original beta). I know how to play, thank you.

Just because I have a ret paladin (Who, mind you, has been ret for the past 2 arena seasons and not just FOTM), doesn't mean that rolling my face on my keyboard is how I play the game.

said by Archivis :

I've played a DK at 80 for quite a bit. I sat outside Orgrimmar dueling anyone I could. They won't be mowing through 3 warriors. Their PVP damage is not spikey at all, especially when compared to ret paladins.

I happen to think that I play a DK very well, because I win nearly every single duel against other DK's, and for the most part, we're all sitting in identical gear.

DK's felt balanced to me. I've wrecked some mages and I've been wrecked by mages. I think it's a matter of player skill rather than a matter of face rolling. You really can't just keep mashing keys until you win. You've got to time things, you've got to control things, you have to reapply things, you have to react.

Ret paladins are simply hitting every button they have available until their cooldowns are up and their only reactive button is their bubble which is used only when they're low on health.

Playing and mastering a DK is going to be largely skill based.

You Idaho folks need to do some research before you start piping up.

said by Dodge :

You mean that's not the way to do it?!? OMFG, all this time wasted on beta and now my world is shattered :)

Seriously though, I have been complaining that DKs are OP as all hell (read any of my beta posts), until I realized 2 things:
1) They bring a brand new mechanic into the game, and that felt OP. Once I learned what DKs are all about in PvP, the illusion of OP went away. Are they easy to beat? NO, doable YES

2) Most people like Archivis mentioned think that mashing 2 buttons on a DK is a solve all solution, and in PvE unfortunately it is, however on beta I rarely see a well played DK.

Ret pallies on the other hand did get out of hand at 80. When you have a single pally go through 3 warriors at the same time, things are seriously wrong.

said by Archivis :

... unless of course you expect to win in PVP by spamming icy touch every third button cast.

said by Lledwyn :

I think it's more directed to Resto druids. If they weren't OP, then can anyone explain why the top 9 out of the top 10 2v2 teams last season had resto druids on them? Between resto druid/warlock, resto druid/ms warrior and resto druid/rogue...there is a pretty heavy trend there.

Even right now, with the new talents/abilities, resto druids are gods in pve. In our raid the other night, the resto druid we had alone never ran out of mana once and carried 45% of the total healing done in a 20 man raid. And I know it wasn't because the other healers there were slacking.

said by Archivis :

Oh well. Just wait until players see what happens when they get themselves snagged back into melee range of a DK, and then slowed to a creeping halt. When they can't combat that, what are they going to do then?

said by SSX4life :

Right but that's rock paper sissors. A good frost mage or SL / SL lock will beat me if played well.

You can have a full S4 rogue get beaten by a paladin in greens, there just is something wrong with that. They need to stop making the game about who has the most armor... this is just stupid. I have glaves for petes sake...

said by Archivis :

They've been watched pretty heavily in beta. Fortunately for them, they'll be balanced for 80 at 80. Ret paladins seemed to have gotten balanced for 80 at 70, which may turn out to hurt them even more than they're hurting now as scaling goes.

But yeah, I feel pretty strong about what I said about ret paladins. People cried nerf because they were no longer an ignored class. People learned heavily how to deal with rogues, but nobody really cared to know about how to deal with ret paladins. Ret Paladins were still defeatable, you just had to understand them. Players whining about getting burnt down during a hammer of justice in PVP while they had so many outs, just didn't get it. You trinket out of the hammer, not repentance.

Oh well. Just wait until players see what happens when they get themselves snagged back into melee range of a DK, and then slowed to a creeping halt. When they can't combat that, what are they going to do then?

said by Integrator :

Can you link the thread on the WoW forums where GC said this? I have not seen it as of yet and some of this is the first I have heard of this in depth of a nerf.

I think the retadins deserved a nerf, just not one so......well deep. This just gives bad memories of what was done to Droods the month after BC came out.

I also expect there to be a major clamoring over wanted nerfs to DK's when the expansion hits. People WILL be in for a suprise fighting them.

said by Archivis :

What I really think it was, is that paladins were never really a threat so people never realy had to learn how to play against them. A ret paladin was not difficult to go up against. Their damage was really no different than an arms warrior in your face.

said by quatrix :

Anyone using that much jargon should get professional help.

said by I quit retail :

.... btw how do I edit my own posts ~.~

said by I quit retail :

Pally bubble = Wasted CDs.

said by I quit retail :

Full T6 = Bad

said by gordom :

and we're STILL called op and need to be nerf'd.

just that that call has been drowned out by all the 'nerf ret' talk

said by Integrator :

As a shaman, I get eaten by.........well hell just about everybody.

said by quickbeam :

I eat rogues for breakfast.

said by Lledwyn :

Let me rephrase this in a way you'll understand then. People are running around with talent abilities that are designed for use at a game where the level cap is L80. Not L70. If these talents were designed around L70 play, they would have been here at the start of BC. What we're seeing in game right now is EXACTLY what we saw in the content patch right before BC came out in regards to PvP.

said by dynodb :

I keep seeing Rets making this argument and it's absurd. No one is getting level 80 talent abilities right now. If it's available at level 70, it is by definition a level 70 talent. If it's a level 80 talent, you can't obtain it before level 80.

said by Archivis :

Against a paladin, you always use the trinket on the hammer. They've got one other stun, repentence, which is like your blind. Very few paladins these days seem to treat that like rogues treat blind, as a method to tie up a partner. They like to use it as a distance closer, because they don't have the kind of poisons to keep a person slowed down.

I've not seen how disarm works against a ret paladin, if that's possible at all, but it would wreck us if it did.

Evasion isn't that great either... but maybe cloak + evasion would nullify all physical and spell damage. Not sure about that myself.

I've been using Seal of Command in PVP lately. I think I may switch to Seal of Corruption so the damage ticks can keep going. On top of that, I've got the exalted BT trinket that puts an additional DoT on. It may screw rogues up who decide to vanish or re-stealth or whatever without using cloak first (I don't think many rogues think to cloak against a paladin).

said by Lledwyn :

People are running around with L80 talent abilities right now. Blizzard changed the entire way that gear is itemized and spell damage/healing is handled. The spell coefficients have all changed. Wow pre 3.0 is NOT the game it was.

said by Kevlar :

P.S. for those of you not familiar with beta [play if you think the new Ret pallies are OP get ready for more tears when you see Blood spec DKS with some resilience on the battlefield.

said by DarkspiteAzgalor :

Thanks for the correction Lledwyn. I had them mixed up. In my scrub arena experience (and in bgs too) I haven't faced many ret pallies until a week ago. What's to stop them for repentancing me after I trinket and healing to full? (please don't read sarcasm)

said by DarkspiteAzgalor :

Thanks for the tips Archivis. Shray, despite the caps you have some good points as well. If a pally gets me out of stealth in a bg since I've usually just killed something else, I'll just take the HoJ stun up the rear and wait for rez :) Which is probably what any other class thinks when they a rogue surprises them :) I guess I understand now why other classes hate us so much.

said by DownLow :

No...faceroll = lock (or it used to be)

said by Integrator :

Faceroll = Reatadin

said by shray :

IN ORDER TO BEAT RET PALADIN U MUST KITE THEM AND AVOID HAMMER NOT JUST ATTEMPT TO TANK THEM

EVASION IS USELESS

DISARM IS OKAY

CLOAK IS BEST

o and speccing pvp not a bad idea

said by Lledwyn :

I guess we better let Blizzard know that they need to take care of the druids...

said by Integrator :

I will say it again for emphasis.

NO CLASS SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO IMMUNE, HAVE QUALITY HEALS, STUN, AND DISH THE DAMAGE THAT IS CURRENTLY BEING DONE.

said by drew :

I don't see anything in the notes that says "37% crit damage reduction" so, please, enlighten us.

The reason why you're an annoying prick happens to be because you post just like someone from the official forums. You're king of all and everyone else should bow before you.

said by elboricua :

So a class that has been shit dps wise since they started suddenly gets a buff and everyone QQ's? My answer will be the same one rogues love to give people who QQ about them. Learn to deal with the changes. Ret pallies are not unbeatable, same as rogues are not unbeatable.

Everyone will need to learn to deal and not cry for the nerf bat because you got roflpwned. It happens. Welcome the rock to the rogue scissor.

said by SSX4life :

Fu*king ridiculous .... I'm stunned from 100 to 0 and I even got the jump on the bastard.

Full T6 with glaves (pve spec)... popped everything I got hammered / stunned a 2nd time / then dead.

I'm sorry but last time I checked rogues were the stun class, and yes I know they are not balanced properly @ 70 but this is just crazy stupid.

I get the jump on him and he is still at over 50% health. /sigh

said by Lledwyn :

As far as the ret nerfs, when 3.0.3 pops, you won't be seeing any more ret paladins out there. With a 37% crit damage reduction which will give them nothing for burst, they'll switch back to their other builds or their other OP classes.

said by Dandy :

Yah us ret pallies are overpowered, about damn time too! :mad:

said by DarkspiteAzgalor :

Like any BAD rogue I waited until the initial stun was over so that I could trinket out of repentance. By the time I was able to trinket I had less than 2k health, she trinketed my blind and the fight was over. Granted, I made a mistake by not being sneaky enough and letting her start the fight, but jeez.

Thanks,
~Darkspite - Azaglor

said by Integrator :

LOL. A anonymous angry poster out of the woodwork.

Please go "PWN" elsewhere.

said by Dodge :

Wanna kill ret pallies, go find someone who was holy from day one, never tried ret and pick on them, most of those wouldn't know what to do with ret.

said by saillaw :

I'm sorry but if you truly are a rogue in full S4 and you have twin blades and the retri pally was in greens (and therefore not pvp gear) and he got you in 4 hits, you must have been naked or afk. Some sort of exageration is at play here.