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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP see trade article »www.eweek.com/c/a/Mobile-and-Wir···tocells/
Verizon Wireless Ponders Femtocells
By Roy Mark
2008-10-28
The wireless carrier submits a femtocell device to the Federal Communications Commission for a possible 2009 rollout. Essentially micro cell towers for the home and office, femtocell devices boost cell phone call coverage and capacity.
Verizon Wireless plans to enter the femtocell market next year, joining Sprint Nextel and T-Mobile as U.S. carriers that hope to use the technology to boost cell phone coverage and capacity in homes and offices. A modem-size femtocell device is currently under review at the Federal Communications Commission.
Femtocell devices are micro cell towers used in homes and small businesses to improve the quality of cellular telephone calls and to also allow users to make calls over a broadband connection. Sprint Nextel began deploying its Airave femtocells, manufactured by Samsung, in 2007. T-Mobile is also using femtocell technology to enhance its wireless network coverage.
"We are looking at femtocell technology and will soon be performing user tests," a Verizon Wireless spokesperson told Unstrung. "We could well have a product on the market early next year, but we have made no public announcements about that yet."
Connected through a broadband service such as DSL and cable modems, femtocell devices typically support two to five mobile phones in a residence. ABI Research predicts 103 million femtocell access points will be in service by 2013. My opinion: Once in the hands of the marketing powerhouse of Verizon Wireless, the misunderstood femtocell will make residential VOIP (and POTS lines) unnecessary for a vast majority of the population. By solving the problem of cell service in a home, folks will quickly realize that their cell number and personal voice mail can work for them all day long. Do not be surprised when cell providers come up with an online "portal" for call control capabilities that we are used to with our favorite VOIP providers.
I've had a Sprint Airave femtocell for almost two years and it really works. Sprint just doesn't know how (or have the inclination or cash) to market it. T-Mobile has made a publicity splash with their version.
Once the marketing guys at VZW get their hands on this, it's all over. Those predicting the death of POTS will be proven correct, taking down residential VOIP with it, IMO. The long term prospects for VOIP as we know it remain for business applications, and for niche markets like international calling. | |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP I'll leave the pricing quotes up to Sprint. It was less expensive to acquire in the store than was advertised at the time. The monthly fee was as advertised.
Functionally it worked flawlessly. Usage minutes through the device did not count against my allowance and curiously did not get itemized on the invoice; I've not had the inclination to test if international calls would work and be billed. Multiple phones can use it simultaneously. Sprint allows you to designate which phones on your subscription can use it, locking out all others -- or if it's available to any nearby user.
Only a phone on the same subscription as the device gets free minutes through the device ... if a nearby neighbor picks up your Airave signal, his calls can go through the device, but he's not supposed to get free minutes. I'm not sure if the billing system is linked through the Airave partition so I suppose it's possible that the freeloader gets free minutes. Either way, you the subscriber are not liable for any costs other than the monthly fee.
Text messages and the original "Vision" internet capabilities seem to use the device; the new advanced EVDO capabilities (music, TV, etc) would not. The Nextel IDEN phones cannot use the Airave. I use a 3 year old Sanyo 8200 which came out prior to the Airave, and it works fine. Perhaps the newer phones would have an icon on the display to let you know if you're in range of the Airave. Sprint does play an audible beep when placing or answering calls to indicate that you're using the device.
E911 is supported through a GPS link.
Hands down, though, my favorite feature is the pretty blue light display on the front ... when the internet goes down the network light changes from blue to red, saving tons of analysis time figuring out why other stuff doesn't work!
What I see as the big advantage of the femtocell box is that it makes the home phone line (VOIP or POTS) unnecessary in too many cases. With clear audio and no danger of busting the cell allowance, home users will gradually find their home phone to be essentially answer only. Once the cell companies allow port-ins and support multiple numbers per phone, and provide a call control portal (and enhanced voice mail and blah blah) ... then the war is over. | |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by pandora  :Unlimited calling to and from home could be nice. Be careful ... calling "home" is a different concept with all cell with Airave and no POTS. There is no place to plug a phone into the Airave. It's a cellular repeater, not a VOIP ATA. You would have unlimited calling to any Sprint cell number anyway ... the Airave simply amplifies the signal in the home. So you wouldn't call "home" anymore, you would call the cell number of the family member you're looking for. | |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by pandora :Imagine your home phone network is energized by a Bluetooth to RJ11 device which is fed by your cellphone. That's all good, but limited to proximity to the cell phone. If your wife is out shopping, and you call her number, it would ring where her phone is, not at your home. If no cell phones are at home, then you're simply ringing to the phones, not to the "home." Those type of "on-net" calls are free, anyway, you don't need the Airave for that. You need the Airave to amplify the signal in the home and to get free minutes for talking outside Sprint's subscriber base. It would be an interesting "add-on" for a non-portable ATA-type device ... though isn't that how T-Mobile does it? | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
 ·ViaTalk
 ·Comcast
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by pandora :It depends on how you approach it. If you want to dedicate a cell phone from a family plan to be your permanent home phone, nothing stops you. At the same time, taking the home number with you when traveling could be a benefit for some. Dedicating one phone to be the "home phone" kinda defeats the purpose though, no? If today you can use POTS or VoIP with one base and 3,4 or even 8 handsets - in a cell-is-the-home-phone situation you're limited to one handset.
Taking the home phone with you is a great idea in theory - but what if you travel on business and your wife or roommates stay home? one of you gets the home phone - the other doesn't.
With VoIP it's possible (and easy) to take an ATA with you and ring both locations at the same time.
I think in a way if you want home phone service - femtocells is not going to work well. If you want personal service - i.e. each member of the family has their own phone and there is no centralized "home phone" - then femtocells will work.
But who knows.. maybe the boys up at VZ have already thought of these things and solutions to them. But then again- wouldn't this compete with their land line and VoIP business? 
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by pandora :It seems as if $25-35 a month is the high price point for unlimited calling via VOIP or alternatives such as Femtocell. Vonage, Packet 8, and basically any VSP that's been concentrating on brand at higher prices is probably going to see some line loss out of this (although this by itself won't kill them).
Smaller providers are probably not going to be affected too much. BYOD crowd is not likely to throw away their adapters anytime soon, and like you said - even with femtocells it's hard to beat $11 a month. 
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation | |
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tommy13v
Premium
join:2002-02-15
Glenville NY | I complained to retentions and received the equipment and service for free. They also threw in 3 months of unlimited calling, after that it would be just a repeater unless I wanted to pay $15 a month for service. | |
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oddgeezer
join:2005-03-22
Leawood, KS
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP To user ke4pym
I have configured my Packet8 account to ring my home phone and cell phone at the same time when someone dials my home phone number.
Does anything "bad" happen if the cell phone happens to be out-of-range, or turned off when there is an incoming call?
I don't know anything about voip and cell phones, is why I ask. Your arrangement sounds great to me. | |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by oddgeezer :Does anything "bad" happen if the cell phone happens to be out-of-range, or turned off when there is an incoming call? Those are two different circumstances. If the phone is off, then the voice mail on the cell will take the call, and the other phones in the simul-ring will stop ringing...this effect is neutralized if the receipient is required to press a button (typically 1) to take the call. If the phone is out of range, then there is no impact to the other phones. | |
| | | | | jay_rm
join:2002-04-12
Netville
 ·Fox Valley Internet
·ViaTalk
2 edits | said by RockyBB :said by pandora :Unlimited calling to and from home could be nice. Be careful ... calling "home" is a different concept with all cell with Airave and no POTS. There is no place to plug a phone into the Airave. It's a cellular repeater, not a VOIP ATA. You would have unlimited calling to any Sprint cell number anyway ... the Airave simply amplifies the signal in the home. So you wouldn't call "home" anymore, you would call the cell number of the family member you're looking for. It might be a little confusing to call these femtocell products "cellular repeaters". That suggests they simply re-transmit the strongest local cell inside your house. What they do is take the place of a larger outdoor cell site. The femtocell uses YOUR wired broadband connection to backhaul any phone registered to it. It doesn't 'repeat' anything.
Most people already have a usable cell signal in their house. Why would the spread of femtocells impact VoIP if the majority of users already COULD use their cellphone in their house. Femtocell technology is being pushed by the cellular providers because it's just another way to decrease the load on their network.
Of course, I'm sure they'll market it to the ignorant public in a much different way !
{edit for spelling}
{edit2 - not calling YOU ignorant Rocky...} | |
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chpalmer
join:2002-11-18
Belfair, WA
·wavebroadband
·VOIPo
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP quote:
Most people already have a usable cell signal in their house..... Femtocell technology is being pushed by the cellular providers because it's just another way to decrease the load on their network.
Of course, I'm sure they'll market it to the ignorant public in a much different way !
Thats right!
There are allot of people that dont have good enough coverage and this will help them though. My office is a prime example. Cell site rental and buildout is expensive. Why wouldnt they do this? | |
| | | | | | nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
| said by jay_rm :The femtocell uses YOUR wired broadband connection to backhaul any phone registered to it. Granted I am a bit ignorant about the technology, but something that doesn't add up in my mind is the assumption that every family has an internet connection adequate enough to transmit multiple voice streams at once. Let's face it- most "broadband" users these days are still on 768/128 packages or something similar - whatever they can get cheapest from their ISP. Even with compression I don't see that kind of connection passing along more than a couple of calls at a time with good quality. And that's not even taking into effect regular internet usage (read: youtube) by other family members. | |
| | | | | | | jay_rm
join:2002-04-12
Netville
·Fox Valley Internet
·ViaTalk
3 edits | Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by nitzan :Granted I am a bit ignorant about the technology, but something that doesn't add up in my mind is the assumption that every family has an internet connection adequate enough to transmit multiple voice streams at once. A simple VOICE GSM data stream (T-Mobile, ATT, ect) uses about 10% the bandwidth of a typical VoIP call. The GSM codec is very streamlined and robust. A CDMA stream uses more bandwidth but still not very much. The problems start when one is using high bandwidth apps on your phone. But, even with 3G services, bandwidths are normally less then a few 100K - easily supported by many home connections.
Once again, it's simply a plot by the cellular providers to get YOUR traffic off THEIR network and dump it back on YOU | |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by jay_rm :it's simply a plot by the cellular providers to get YOUR traffic off THEIR network and dump it back on YOU Cell providers have only a few plots: 1) increase revenue per subscriber, 2) reduce churn, 3) keep operating and buildout costs under control. Assuming that the boxes work, and if the marketing guys sell it the right way, all plots will be successful. It's not a complete freebie, for them BTW. They still would have to pay offnet termination costs for calls off their network. | |
| | | | | | | | | nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by RockyBB :They still would have to pay offnet termination costs for calls off their network. Yes, but they'd probably be able to pass those on as IP-originated which is a fraction of what they pay on their cell-originated offnet calls currently.
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation | |
| | | | | | | pandora
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Outland
·ooma
·Future Nine Corpor..
·Comcast
| said by nitzan :Granted I am a bit ignorant about the technology, but something that doesn't add up in my mind is the assumption that every family has an internet connection adequate enough to transmit multiple voice streams at once. Let's face it- most "broadband" users these days are still on 768/128 packages or something similar - whatever they can get cheapest from their ISP. Even with compression I don't see that kind of connection passing along more than a couple of calls at a time with good quality. And that's not even taking into effect regular internet usage (read: youtube) by other family members. I'm familiar as a former customer with the basic AT&T DSL service (known as DSL express) it is 1.5mb down and 384kb up via PPPoE. I was on it when first using Future-Nine, and with other PC's in my home occasionally VOIP had small glitches. Shortly after getting my Future-Nine account, I moved us to Comcast HSI, the basic service is 6 mb down and 1 mb up. Comcast is in the process of doubling that to 12 mb down and 2 mb up for most customers in the next few months.
With 9 PC's and 5 active users, Future-Nine VOIP had occasional issues with AT&T's entry DSL solution, but is fine with Comcast even at their current offer of 6/1.
You are correct, that many broadband users could have issues with Femtocell, but at the same time, many won't.
Those that have issues with Femtocell, likely would have similar issues with VOIP.
At this time the appeal of Sprint's Femtocell will be for customers who use Vonage, CallVantage, even Comcast Digital Voice. As you indicate, the non-high end providers have no threat from this service.
Vonage should be concerned in my opinion. As this provides an affordable alternative from other well known phone service providers for many families. The pricing on the Sprint Femtocell makes most sense for a family plan IF the family makes or gets a lot of calls from home.
Sprint does not seem to advertise this capability at this time. I don't understand why they don't. Anyone who gets nominal reception and has broadband could benefit from it.
--
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." | |
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usa2k
Please PRAY for Rebekah
Premium,MVM
join:2003-01-26
Canton, MI
clubs: | Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP As long as Canada is excluded from regular calling ... not too helpful for me. | |
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usa2k
Please PRAY for Rebekah
Premium,MVM
join:2003-01-26
Canton, MI
clubs:
2 edits | Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP No from a cell phone - and I only have one VoIP provider ATM.
EDIT:
Nextel on cell while over in Canada was $0.10/minute.
Now on Sprint, its $0.49/minute IIRC!
Same from USA with them. | |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| said by jay_rm :Why would the spread of femtocells impact VoIP if the majority of users already COULD use their cellphone in their house. By allowing free calling offnet through the device, with reduced chance of dropouts. Folks now are faced with "unlimited" calling from their "home" phone (VOIP or POTS) or cell minutes from the cell phone. Change that dynamic to unlimited cell minutes from home through the femtocell, and no one will make calls out from the "home" phone (other than international, conf calls, other niche types of calling). That's why I said the "home" phone then becomes answer only. Once the cell providers allow port-ins, allow more than one number to map to a single cell phone (much less a call director), and provide a portal, then it's over. IMO! | |
| | | | | | | jay_rm
join:2002-04-12
Netville
·Fox Valley Internet
·ViaTalk
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by RockyBB :By allowing free calling offnet through the device, with reduced chance of dropouts. You are correct Rocky - I forgot about that part.
Since you are no longer using bandwidth on your cell providers network, from a technical standpoint they really wouldn't care how much you talked. Plus, they would be getting revenue (from your femtocell 'rental') from something they no longer had to provide (cellular bandwitdh). Wow !
I retract my statement - femtocells COULD have a significant impact on VoIP and POTS. | |
| B
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-28
| It's really too bad that 802.11 sucks so much power. It would be a lot simpler to just use WiFi enabled cell phones to accomplish the same thing as the femtocells, since so many people have home WiFi networks with the same coverage that the femtos are going to bring.
This way in a home there's more radiation (not necessarily a bad kind), more stuff to hook up, more vendor lock-in, more and different worry about sharing your connection, etc....
Perhaps something like dual band DECT enabled cell phones would make more sense than the femtos? I guess I'm thinking that a short range need should be met by an efficient short range protocol, not a spoofing of a long range cell protocol...
-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function | |
| | mazilo
From Mazilo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
Lilburn, GA
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by B :This way in a home there's more radiation (not necessarily a bad kind), more stuff to hook up, more vendor lock-in, more and different worry about sharing your connection, etc.... And more expose to an accumulation of such microwave radiations that will perhaps cause human cells to mutate into other cells, including but not limited to cancer cells. Thousands years from now, perhaps this planet will be inhibited with mutated creatures and they will still call them a human species. Those who live in jungles that are not affected by these microwaves (absorbed by tree leaves) remain the same and will be treated as alien species. 
--
Mazilo always prays for FREEBIES!
US Phone: +1-678-601-0907
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| said by B :It's really too bad that 802.11 sucks so much power. It would be a lot simpler to just use WiFi enabled cell phones to accomplish the same thing as the femtocells, since so many people have home WiFi networks with the same coverage that the femtos are going to bring. This way in a home there's more radiation (not necessarily a bad kind), more stuff to hook up, more vendor lock-in, more and different worry about sharing your connection, etc.... Perhaps something like dual band DECT enabled cell phones would make more sense than the femtos? I guess I'm thinking that a short range need should be met by an efficient short range protocol, not a spoofing of a long range cell protocol... -- B I have thought this for a long time. Have the phone simply connect to a wireless network, it automatically makes a SIP connection to the provider (AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, whomever) and viola, cell service anywhere you have access to a wireless connection. No need for femtocells. | |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by Maxo :I have thought this for a long time. Have the phone simply connect to a wireless network, it automatically makes a SIP connection to the provider (AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, whomever) and viola, cell service anywhere you have access to a wireless connection. that would not work in a moving car, or when walking through the shopping mall. | |
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by RockyBB :said by Maxo :I have thought this for a long time. Have the phone simply connect to a wireless network, it automatically makes a SIP connection to the provider (AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, whomever) and viola, cell service anywhere you have access to a wireless connection. that would not work in a moving car, or when walking through the shopping mall. I was meaning that wireless was an alternate way to make a voice call, not superseding regular cell towers. | |
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PolarBear
The bear formerly known as aaron8301
Premium
join:2005-01-03
·CableOne
| said by RockyBB :said by Maxo :I have thought this for a long time. Have the phone simply connect to a wireless network, it automatically makes a SIP connection to the provider (AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, whomever) and viola, cell service anywhere you have access to a wireless connection. that would not work in a moving car, or when walking through the shopping mall. That's funny, it works fine on my T-Mobile Blackberry Curve. When it loses wifi signal, it simply switches back to GSM. And although on the early T-mobile UMA phones battery drain was horrible, the battery on my Curve lasts me 3 days with light use or 1 day with heavy voice use. | |
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RevMortis
I Hear Dead Silicon
Premium
join:2005-05-10
Saint Paul, MN | One question. How good is E911 through these devices? | |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by RevMortis :One question. How good is E911 through these devices? I can't say from experience. But I do know that the delay in launching it nationwide (from the initial test markets of Denver, Indy and Nashville) was to ensure that the GPS/E911 system was functional. There is a control in the box that disables the calling functionality until it can get a GPS reading for E911 purposes. They included a really long string antenna in the carton with my unit, in the event that the device could not find a GPS signal without it (I didn't need the external antenna). Sprint is a company with a lot of lawyers, who need to protect the assets of the corporation, so E911 was a priority for them. As always, YMMV! | |
| | ChuckIL9
join:2005-11-07
Peoria, IL
·magicjack.com
·STANAPHONE
·Aretta Communicati..
·Nuvio
2 edits | I had planned on eliminating my VOIP lines and using the Sprint femtocel device, but the Airave has been a disappointment to me. Sprint sent it for free, and waved the monthly fees for a year, but it's functionality has been less than satisfactory. I have pretty poor reception from the Sprint cell tower in the house (zero to at most 2 bars), but for either of my two cellphones (a cheap Sanyo and a Moto Q) to switch over to Airave coverage, the phone pretty much has to be on top of the Airave. Once the signal is locked in I have full bars in the room the Airave is in, but coverage drops off significantly if I go to a different floor. If I move outside Airave coverage while on a call, the call drops. Weird things have also happened for incoming callers. On occasion they hear the phone ring, while my handset does not, then in several cases they are connected to another Sprint users phone. Maybe I've got a bad unit, but the signal weakness and general weirdness has seen my Airave deployed back in it's box and in the closet. This one definitely did not pass the Wife Acceptance Factor. | |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by ChuckIL9 :Maybe I've got a bad unit You might pursue that possibility...have you called the Airave support dept to see if they can do some remote diagnostics on it? Also the thing is supposed to stand up so the lights are vertical (I don't know why), and the higher up in the house the better (again I don't know why) though the location of your network router will determine where the unit is deployed. | |
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dcurrey
Premium
join:2004-06-29
·ViaTalk
| No one has mentioned it or maybe its just a problem at my house.
I have a multihandset base unit with 4 phones. These phones are placed in all over my house kitchen bedroom living room ect. I have trouble keeping the 4 units in the rooms they belong. They all seem to migrate around the house and end up in strange spots. Have a hard time finding them sometimes.
I couldn't imaging trying to run around looking for my cell phone, and if the battery dies forget it. This is why I went to voip instead of straight to cell phones. | |
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chpalmer
join:2002-11-18
Belfair, WA
·wavebroadband
·VOIPo
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by dcurrey :No one has mentioned it or maybe its just a problem at my house. I couldn't imaging trying to run around looking for my cell phone, and if the battery dies forget it. This is why I went to voip instead of straight to cell phones. My heater has a remote control  Think about that a minute... I have also held out for a tethered phone. | |
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avd706
insert annoying animated gif here
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Union, NJ
| I don't have a home phone, just a shared minutes plan. I get free calling 7pm to 7am and free mobile to mobile. I leave the house at 6:30am and get home around 6pm. I use skypeout for international calls, and have convinced most of my overseas relatives to subscribe to skype so even that is free. (No, I don't have skypein) Why do I need a femtocell in my house? I would get one, if I didn't have to pay a monthly fee for one. (p.s. My internet is an aircard fixed in a wi-fi router.) | |
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christcorp
Premium
join:2001-05-21
Cheyenne, WY
·Bresnan Online
·VOIPo
| I'm not sure how much I believe FEMTOCELL is really going to impact pots/voip users. It's a very cheap technology, so there's no reason not to deploy it. However, there seems to be a large assumption that cell coverage totally sucks in EVERY home or business. This is totally misleading. I would venture to say that the vast majority of people who have a broadband connection in their home or business, probably already have cell service. As such, if they wanted to use their cell service as their primary phone service, they would have replaced their home POTS/Voip by now. Some have, but most still have voip/pots. I can get cell coverage in the basement, but getting rid of pots/voip 100% with a cell phone was never an option that I thought about. Mainly, because Cell phone quality is no where near as good as pots or voip. It's not a coverage issue, it's a "Radio Technology" issue. My wife, who is definitely technologically deficient, only uses her cell phone when away from the home for convenience. When talking on the phone to her mom or sister, she waits until she is home.
Anyway, femtocell seems convenient when you have broadband and you don't have cell service, and you DON'T want a POTS/voip phone. But for those with cell service available inside their home/business; I don't see why anyone would buy Femtocell service when they can already use their cell phone. With today's plans with a gazillion minutes, it's not really a technology people would spend money on.
But I definitely see some uses for the technology. And, because the technology is relatively inexpensive to use and support, it makes sense to implement it. Sort of like Direcway or WildBlue satellite internet. It's great if that's all you have; but just about anyone with access to DSL, Cable, Wireless, or EVDO/G3 wouldn't even think of satellite internet. Same here. later... mike.... | |
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DracoFelis
Premium
join:2003-06-15
| Like others in this thread, I don't think this will be a death of residential VoIP (even aside from the fact that technically this is just another form of VoIP).
Now, from the cell company's perspective this is clearly "a good thing". After all, the cell company actually gets a monthly fee (from the consumer), AND gets free use of your internet bandwidth (to handle both yours AND other cell calls), and (because you are essentially hosting a mini-tower) ends up having more "coverage" (fewer dropouts) in their coverage map (without having to pay anything to build out new towers). And the cell company even gets "lock in" of their customers (reducing churn), because the customer knows they need that cell plan to get service. So what's not to like, from the cell company's perspective? Granted, the cell company does pay for some VoIP calls, but IMHO that is more than covered by the monthly fee charged the consumer.
OTOH it's much more of a "mixed blessing" from the consumer's end of things. Yes, the person gets "free calls" on their cell phone, but the consumer is paying a monthly fee (which is for the most part no cheaper than many other VoIP alternatives) for that "privilege". Also, the consumer is forced to use those lower sound quality cell phones (land line phones often have much better audio quality than the small speakers and highly compressed CODECs cell phones use), and the consumer is also locked into a contract for those cell phones (which makes this a poor choice for anyone who uses low volume prepaid cell plans). Also, you are effectively providing YOUR internet bandwidth (which especially for "upload" bandwidth can be limited), to help those with cell phones near your building make calls (whereas normal VoIP would only handle YOUR CALLS, not traffic for cell users near you), again for no gain to you. So there are clearly disadvantages (for the consumer) to this approach.
However, even with the normal consumer disadvantages, I can still see this being a real benefit to some consumers with specific needs. For example, if you run a small business, perhaps you would want one of these devices to make it easy for cell users to connect while in your establishment? Or perhaps you are a family that already has a large (number of minutes) cell phone "family plan" (and where family members already do most of their talking from their cell phone), and therefore this is a cheap/easy way to lower costs (and/or get more talking) when "home". So there are clearly some consumers that might benefit from such a device in their home or their business.
But I think for most VoIP users, the convenience of having our own "home number", that is separate from our cell phones is a plus. And likewise more traditional VoIP sound quality is likely to sound better (overall) than these cell phone mini-tower devices. Finally, don't forget that one key advantage of VoIP, is that VoIP to VoIP calls are free (except for internet bandwidth). Unless the cell companies add such "dialing options" to their plans (unlikely IMHO), you lose that advantage if/when you pick one of these devices over a more traditional BYOD VoIP solution. | |
| nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
| I read a little more about it.. Sprint Airave pricing is:
Sprint AIRAVE Base Station - $99.99/each (requires activation at time of purchase and subscription to an AIRAVE plan. Excludes taxes.)
AIRAVE Enhanced Coverage Charge - $4.99/mo. (required per AIRAVE unit)**
Single Line Unlimited Calling Plan (optional) - $10/mo. per account**
Multi-Line (multiple phones sharing minutes on one account) Unlimited Calling Plan (optional) - $20/mo. per account** So in other words, you pay $100 for the "privilege" of saving them money, and what you get in return is an unlimited plan which costs around $30/month on top of your already-inflated cellular bill... ($5 "Ehanced Coverage Charge" + $20 Multi-Line unlimited plan + taxes and fees)
I take it back - even Vonage won't hurt much if cell carriers think they'll hit a home run with these prices.
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation | |
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See 22 replies to this post | |
ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
clubs: | Front page just posted AT&T are testing them also. | |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| new trade article on femtocells: »www.networkworld.com/news/2008/1···r-a.html
It's rather long so I won't post the text, but nicely done. The author does not speculate on the impact to landlines or residential VOIP, but does a good job in explaining the technology. | |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP another trade article on femtocells: »www.vpico.com/articlemanager/pri···e=216036
It uses a phrase I hadn't heard before, "wireless substitution." Meaning substituting wireless for landlines. This could also apply to substituting wireless for residential VOIP.
IMO, once femtocells are deployed by the cell providers, they need to do only a few things to ensure the demise of the residential landline & VOIP businesses. 1. develop an online control portal, 2. develop voice mail to email capability, 3. permit additional phone numbers (to support the "main" home phone number), in addition to a number for each user, 4. then market the crap out of the new converged service. | |
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christcorp
Premium
join:2001-05-21
Cheyenne, WY
·Bresnan Online
·VOIPo
| I've only gotten a little educated on Femtocell; but I have to honestly say that I don't understand it's use. Not the use of bringing phone indoors to improve coverage. But why team up and use a technology that uses dsl, cable, etc...
Cellular providers have the best technology already available to them. WIRELESS!!! It's the cheapest to install and maintain. I am already using plenty of devices like "Telular" to take cell service and bring it to places where normal dialup and DSL/Cable isn't available. I can use these telulars to tie into the building inside wiring and run traditional phones for voice, dialup, fax, telemetry, etc... And I can add external cell data modems such as Airlink (Similar to PCMCIA or USB data modems) residential users have now. And with EVDO and LTE, bandwidths exceeding DSL/Cable are going to be seen soon. Current EVDO-A is already equal to or better than a lot of DSL.
So why in the world would cellular want to get into bed with a technology that they compete with? Cellular has the capability to totally put pots, voip, dsl, cable, satellite, and wireless totally out of business. A truly cellular system with unlimited voice and data "THAT IS TOTALLY PORTABLE" is the ultimate. No one needs voip or pots if their cell system didn't cost so much. No one would need DSL or cable if cellular data didn't cost so much.
Not saying Femtocell doesn't have so possible uses; just saying if I was Verizon, ATT, T-mobile, etc... I would be looking at making my cellular voice and data a system that would REPLACE ALL THE OTHER voice and data services. I wouldn't be trying to build a technology that relies on someone else's technology. later... mike.... | |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by christcorp :So why in the world would cellular want to get into bed with a technology that they compete with? read the last three paragraphs of today's citation. Because it's cheaper! The cell providers get to piggyback for free on the broadband infrastructure that the customer pays for. Same thing as VOIP -- Vonage, Packet 8, VOIPO, none of them pay commissions or royalties to users' home broadband connections. Equally, cell providers don't have to bulk up their wireless networks when the customers provide that path for free. I don't know how things are in Wyoming, but in the rest of the country investment capital is tough to find! "We can increase our call handling capacity for nothing" is a pretty compelling argument in the boardroom. Read through some of the testy comments in my femtocell threads -- "I wouldn't pay for a femtocell when I'm paying for my own broadband -- they should pay me." Exactly! Increase the quality of service inside the home at the customer's expense! If the cell carriers price it right, the value equation will work out in the customer's favor.
Here's a photo of Verizon's version of their femtocell: »www.slashgear.com/verizon-femtoc···0521503/ | |
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DogFace05
join:2005-12-09
Cary, NC
| The bottom line is capacity, and by extension, cost. Cellular operators paid exhorbitant licensing fees, in government run auctions, to buy spectrum rights for cellular use. This cost has to be viewed in relation to its allocation per subscriber, which depends on the technology's capacity and utilization. Any technology that can increase the achievable service capacity for a given spectrum bandwidth, directly translates to a corresponding decrease in cost.
You say that cellular providers have the best technology available. Well, Mike, there's no such thing as 'the best technology'. Each technology serves a given purpose, and today's cellular certainly does well for its intended purpose, which is to provide MOBILE service. In other words, cellular is designed to operate at power levels appropriate for mobile application, and therefore service coverage per base station that spans radii in the order of miles. But, for stationary or near stationary use, ie for service coverage limited to the confines of a home or business, it's extremely inefficient and wasteful.
For any given spectrum bandwidth, any wireless technology is going to be constrained to a certain capacity. The higher the operating power of the technology, the wider the coverage area, and thus the lesser the achievable capacity density will be. For every reduction in the operating power such that the coverage area is reduced in half, the capacity density quadruples and thus also the number of subscribers that can be served in the same area, if the number of base stations are also increased to provide full coverage over the same area.
This is what femtocell, and other technologies like DECT are, in essence--nothing more than low power cellular, designed to lower the area of coverage per base station, and thus dramatically increase the capacity density, and therefore the number of subscribers that can be served. This translates to more subscribers, and more bandwidth available to each subscriber.
Coupled with advances in technoloqy and manufacturing that now permit producing such equipment at very low cost, plus that these technologies are designed to be operable in the free unlicensed spectra, and not the least, that the equipment (femtocell, etc, basestations) are generally owned by the end user and not subject to the regulatory service quality requirements (battery backing, minimum network access availabilty, etc) imposed on operators, all translate to savings galore for them. | |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| said by christcorp :I guess my point is; I see FEMTOCELL via a person's existing broadband connection as a NICHE market. Not for the common customers. In my house, I get great cell service. Why would I pay ADDITIONALLY to have my cell service come over my broadband connection and retransmitted in my house??? Seems like a major waste of money. There are several residential markets.
For the single person living alone, the femtocell allows them to have a single phone number and voice mail, without having to worry about going over their minute allowance when calling from home during evening hours. If the monthly cost of the femtocell is less than the monthly cost of the landline/VOIP then the "wireless substitution" is compelling.
For newly merged family with no kids yet, the femtocell allows two individuals to combine into a family plan with unlimited minutes from home at all hours. This would reduce the need for a home landline/VOIP phone. Once the cell carriers allow port-in of POTS numbers unanchored to individual phones, then folks can keep their long established phone numbers.
For the family with kids, where everyone has their own cell phone number and voice mail, the femtocell allows everyone to make calls simultaneously from home, with personal VM, without having to adjust the cellular minute allowance. Once the cell carriers allow port-in of the family phone number with a call director feature (dial one for Dad, two for Mom, three for Junior), then there would be no need for the family phone -- with the added benefit of everyone can use their own phone at the same time, without a shared VM box. So long as the monthly cost of the femtocell family plan is less than the monthly cost of the landline/VOIP then the "wireless substitution" is compelling.
Certainly there are other markets, and there will be other niche needs (call blocking, caller ID, anonymity, international rates, etc) many of which can be addressed with sophisticated portals and marketing decisions.
I'm just pointing out the gold mine, I'm not handing out any shovels. | |
| 
Millenniumle
join:2007-11-11
Fredonia, NY
| My office remains tethered to POTS for two reasons:
1. Fax over VoIP is horribly unreliable.
2. Our fire alarm monitoring is also unreliable over VoIP.
As I understand it both are a result of VoIP signal sampling. Does Femtocell tech suffer the same sampling problem? It seems similar to VoIP to me, where the cell signal is sampled and converted to IP packets.
If we had a reliable fax option we can convert the monitoring to radio. Soooo...... fax seems to be the only concern. | |
| | nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP Signal sampling is not the problem. It is jitter (packets arriving out of order) and packet loss that cause most problems with data over VoIP.
Femtocells inherently has the same problems. In fact I am willing to bet VoIP is more reliable in this area since you can at least tweak your adapter settings to compensate (example: »www.future-nine.com/faq/index.ph···tlang=en).
But overall- if you want business reliability - stay on POTS for your data purposes. Neither VoIP nor Femtocells is ready for prime time in this respect.
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation | |
| |
RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| said by Millenniumle : a result of VoIP signal sampling. Does Femtocell tech suffer the same sampling problem? You got a bigger problem: there's no jack. It's wireless, for handheld phones that you talk into. For the same reason that anyone with a fax machine at home needs a POTS line for drama-free faxing, you would still need it if you're talking through a femtocell device, because the femtocell is for talking, as is VOIP. | |
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Millenniumle
join:2007-11-11
Fredonia, NY
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP Thank you everyone for the info.
Thank you espaeth for the fax service info. I was not aware they even existed. I feel as though I'm from within a box.
Our copier dupes as a scanner. As long as it can scan multiple pages like it can copy multiple pages it's a viable option. We have multi-page reports that are faxed between offices and it would be cumbersome to scan 30+ pages, one at a time. We'll need pdf software too.
Our single remaining pots line for fax and monitoring costs over $50 per month, including toll calls. Thank you again.
Have you found Maxemail to sell your fax number to junk faxers? Our local phone is terrible. Hook up a new line and within a week you're inundated. It's been a problem for the 20 years I've run offices in this town. Bastards cost a lot in toner and paper. Of course, in Maxemail's case it would be email instead of toner. | |
| voip_user
join:2006-06-14
Middletown, CT | What about this service from T-mobile, if you already have a tmobile cell phone then this just another $10 add-on for unlimited minutes
»www.theonlyphoneyouneed.com/ | |
|
RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
1 edit | said by RockyBB :My opinion: Once in the hands of the marketing powerhouse of Verizon Wireless, the misunderstood femtocell will make residential VOIP (and POTS lines) unnecessary for a vast majority of the population. Now the real action begins! »Verizon Femtocells Arrive January 25
[EDIT] I just read through the "leaked" documentation cited in the link above, and it does NOT say that calls made through the femtocell won't count against the plan allowance -- which is different than Sprint's femtocell policy. We'll have to see what the official marketing policies look like. If Verizon Wireless is going to keep all the economic rent, then their market penetration with this product won't be so widespread as I predicted -- which might be the intent as they already have the market power in that industry. | |
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See 6 replies to this post | |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by christcorp :Especially if you have to pay $250 just to hook it up. Obviously, with a $250 price tag Verizon doesn't expect 100% mass acceptance. But if it was free and you got free minutes with it, then you would be way on the other side of the continuum. Several Sprint customers have reported they were able to chisel the price to free, and Sprint's policy is free minutes through their box. So with a free box and free minutes, is the technology more interesting? Wouldn't a good number of folks no longer see the need for land line or VOIP line? | |
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christcorp
Premium
join:2001-05-21
Cheyenne, WY
·Bresnan Online
·VOIPo
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP Possibly. But what if you have cell coverage in your home? Does the Femtocell appear as a stronger signal that the cell phone will grab, or with the cell phone automatically grab it's HOME SIGNAL which they are designed to do. I.e. grabbing a home/provider tower before it grabs a roaming tower.
If they provided true free minutes, it might be fine. But even then I'm not to sure about it. What's the advantage to the cell company? The person isn't giving up their cell phones just because they have voip or POTS. If it's a marketing method to get people to give up their voip or pots, again, the cell phone company doesn't gain that many customers. Most people already have cell phones. And if the additional use minutes via Femtocell are free, then they aren't gaining any additional revenue. Again; for the person living in BFE without cell coverage; and they have to pay a lot for a POTS; I can see it. I can also see it for businesses, high rise bldgs, etc... to provide cell coverage for those doing business there. I just don't see it for a residential customer. But then again, a lot of consumers buy and use things that is a novelty or gadget and they don't mind spending money. later... mike.... | |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by christcorp :What's the advantage to the cell company? cell phone management concentrate on two key metrics: average revenue per subscriber and churn. By placing this device inside a home, the carriers are betting that eliminating the in-home problem will make customers stickier, and reduce churn. Collecting a monthly fee (as Sprint does in most cases), increases average revenue. | |
| | | nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP Femtocell will not threaten, touch, impact, or otherwise be associated with VoIP. The wireless carriers are simply not interested in providing cheap access to their customers, so any way you slice it - femtocell will cost more than VoIP.
Not to mention the technology is useless to 90% of people. i.e. if you live in a metro area chances are you're already getting good signal. If you live in the middle of nowhere where there's no reception then having a cell phone is pretty much useless. At best you'd have a pay-as-you-go cell plan or something like that for when you go to town. Joe farmer is not going to buy a Verizon calling plan ($50+) just because he can now get reception at home (but nowhere else). He'd instead buy POTS or VoIP which cost less and sound better.
The whole technology seems more and more as a fad the clearer it gets. It benefits only the carriers, and there's really no incentive for users. They (carriers) should be paying the users to implement it - not the other way around.
As far as giving unlimited minutes and all that - again - their prices are still higher than VoIP, and will always be higher than VoIP. Verizon tops 'em all with not even providing additional minutes. | |
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christcorp
Premium
join:2001-05-21
Cheyenne, WY
·Bresnan Online
·VOIPo
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP I won't say that the technology is useless. To the 90%; I agree. But there are some; a particular technician that works for me; that lives just out of town. If his cell phone had coverage, he probably wouldn't even have a home phone. He has one in case he needs to make a call or someone needs to call him. He does however have wireless broadband. Such a device would allow him to have cell coverage at home. And for a 1 time charge of $250; with no additional charge other than using his existing cell plan minutes; he can have coverage. In turn, he can disconnect his Ma'bell phone and save $60 a month. (You pay more for POTS when you live outside of the "BASE RATE". I.e. The further away from town you live, the more you pay for. He did try voip for a while. It worked fine. But he was still paying $24 +/- a month. He still has his cell phone, and therefore, Femtocell lets hime save anywhere from $24-$60 depending.
But for the vast majority of residential customers, a $250 investment is a waste of money. They already have cell coverage; OR; in order to use their Cell phone as their SOLE SOURCE OF PHONE; would probably require them to change their cell plan to a HIGHER MINUTE plan to make up for the minutes they used on their POTS. Minimum upgrade in minutes is around $20 a month. You can get really good voip plans for that or less. Especially if you don't use much and go with a PAYG. later... mike.... | |
| | | | dcm
join:2008-09-12
Pennsylvania
| Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP said by christcorp :He did try voip for a while. It worked fine. But he was still paying $24 +/- a month. He still has his cell phone, and therefore, Femtocell lets hime save anywhere from $24-$60 depending. Maybe you should suggest that he try F9, Callcentric (w/ dirt cheap DID) or Voicestick PAYG plans. | |
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christcorp
Premium
join:2001-05-21
Cheyenne, WY
·Bresnan Online
·VOIPo
1 edit | Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP He has no need for a home phone other than he can't get cell service. With cell service he would save all the money. He wouldn't need to spend even 1 penny for another phone. There's actually quite a few people who can live on just a cell phone. QUITE A FEW! Not everyone needs thousands of minutes. The vast majority of voip/home users actually don't use more than 500-1000 minutes at the very most. It's the rare few that need more, and thus are the ones who "Debate" or "Complain" of the all illusive "UNLIMITED MINUTES" statement. Even VOIP is a waste of money for a lot of people.
My only thing, as Nitzan properly pointed out; the vast majority of users of cell phones already have coverage. They aren't in a position where a $250 investment; or even less; is needed. If they were going to cancel their POTS for using Cell; they would have already done it. They don't gain anything with Femtocell. Maybe; be if here; Femtocell providers offered additional/free minutes, it MIGHT add a few users, but it's not going to be significant. Femtocell is definitely a small niche market. It helps the cell companies keep some customers, but that's about all. Even for commercial use, the current Femtocell micro-cell tower system only supports around 3-5 phones. So putting it in an office bldg for customers isn't even all that practical. Oh well; it's another topic for debate. later... mike.... | |
| | | | liderbug
join:2009-03-04
Colorado Springs, CO
| Here is my situation: I live in a treed area just over the hill - Can you hear me now? No! 300 ft up the road, Yes, but not in the house. So, a femtocell looks good and I can loose my POTS - or can I? If I call Qwest and drop my pots (and have a femto) I have to carry my cell all over the house - 24x7. If the femto unit had a RJ-11 that would connect to the house wiring (or a base unit) life would be good. The flip side is I lay my cell on the dresser Fri PM and wander out to the garage Sat AM .... screwed!
Who has a unit that allows connections to a base unit for a cordless phone - they have my business
Thanks | |
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Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP
Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP
Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP
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