nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
 ·ViaTalk
 ·Comcast
| reply to jay_rm
Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP
said by jay_rm  :The femtocell uses YOUR wired broadband connection to backhaul any phone registered to it. Granted I am a bit ignorant about the technology, but something that doesn't add up in my mind is the assumption that every family has an internet connection adequate enough to transmit multiple voice streams at once. Let's face it- most "broadband" users these days are still on 768/128 packages or something similar - whatever they can get cheapest from their ISP. Even with compression I don't see that kind of connection passing along more than a couple of calls at a time with good quality. And that's not even taking into effect regular internet usage (read: youtube) by other family members. |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| reply to jay_rm
said by jay_rm :Why would the spread of femtocells impact VoIP if the majority of users already COULD use their cellphone in their house. By allowing free calling offnet through the device, with reduced chance of dropouts. Folks now are faced with "unlimited" calling from their "home" phone (VOIP or POTS) or cell minutes from the cell phone. Change that dynamic to unlimited cell minutes from home through the femtocell, and no one will make calls out from the "home" phone (other than international, conf calls, other niche types of calling). That's why I said the "home" phone then becomes answer only. Once the cell providers allow port-ins, allow more than one number to map to a single cell phone (much less a call director), and provide a portal, then it's over. IMO! |
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jay_rm
join:2002-04-12
Netville
 ·Fox Valley Internet
·ViaTalk
3 edits | reply to nitzan
said by nitzan :Granted I am a bit ignorant about the technology, but something that doesn't add up in my mind is the assumption that every family has an internet connection adequate enough to transmit multiple voice streams at once. A simple VOICE GSM data stream (T-Mobile, ATT, ect) uses about 10% the bandwidth of a typical VoIP call. The GSM codec is very streamlined and robust. A CDMA stream uses more bandwidth but still not very much. The problems start when one is using high bandwidth apps on your phone. But, even with 3G services, bandwidths are normally less then a few 100K - easily supported by many home connections.
Once again, it's simply a plot by the cellular providers to get YOUR traffic off THEIR network and dump it back on YOU  |
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jay_rm
join:2002-04-12
Netville
·Fox Valley Internet
·ViaTalk
| reply to RockyBB
said by RockyBB :By allowing free calling offnet through the device, with reduced chance of dropouts. You are correct Rocky - I forgot about that part.
Since you are no longer using bandwidth on your cell providers network, from a technical standpoint they really wouldn't care how much you talked. Plus, they would be getting revenue (from your femtocell 'rental') from something they no longer had to provide (cellular bandwitdh). Wow !
I retract my statement - femtocells COULD have a significant impact on VoIP and POTS. |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| reply to jay_rm
said by jay_rm :it's simply a plot by the cellular providers to get YOUR traffic off THEIR network and dump it back on YOU Cell providers have only a few plots: 1) increase revenue per subscriber, 2) reduce churn, 3) keep operating and buildout costs under control. Assuming that the boxes work, and if the marketing guys sell it the right way, all plots will be successful. It's not a complete freebie, for them BTW. They still would have to pay offnet termination costs for calls off their network. |
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nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
| said by RockyBB :They still would have to pay offnet termination costs for calls off their network. Yes, but they'd probably be able to pass those on as IP-originated which is a fraction of what they pay on their cell-originated offnet calls currently.
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation |
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ChuckIL9
join:2005-11-07
Peoria, IL
·magicjack.com
·STANAPHONE
·Aretta Communicati..
·Nuvio
2 edits | reply to RockyBB
I had planned on eliminating my VOIP lines and using the Sprint femtocel device, but the Airave has been a disappointment to me. Sprint sent it for free, and waved the monthly fees for a year, but it's functionality has been less than satisfactory. I have pretty poor reception from the Sprint cell tower in the house (zero to at most 2 bars), but for either of my two cellphones (a cheap Sanyo and a Moto Q) to switch over to Airave coverage, the phone pretty much has to be on top of the Airave. Once the signal is locked in I have full bars in the room the Airave is in, but coverage drops off significantly if I go to a different floor. If I move outside Airave coverage while on a call, the call drops. Weird things have also happened for incoming callers. On occasion they hear the phone ring, while my handset does not, then in several cases they are connected to another Sprint users phone. Maybe I've got a bad unit, but the signal weakness and general weirdness has seen my Airave deployed back in it's box and in the closet. This one definitely did not pass the Wife Acceptance Factor. |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| said by ChuckIL9 :Maybe I've got a bad unit You might pursue that possibility...have you called the Airave support dept to see if they can do some remote diagnostics on it? Also the thing is supposed to stand up so the lights are vertical (I don't know why), and the higher up in the house the better (again I don't know why) though the location of your network router will determine where the unit is deployed. |
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| reply to B
said by B :It's really too bad that 802.11 sucks so much power. It would be a lot simpler to just use WiFi enabled cell phones to accomplish the same thing as the femtocells, since so many people have home WiFi networks with the same coverage that the femtos are going to bring. This way in a home there's more radiation (not necessarily a bad kind), more stuff to hook up, more vendor lock-in, more and different worry about sharing your connection, etc.... Perhaps something like dual band DECT enabled cell phones would make more sense than the femtos? I guess I'm thinking that a short range need should be met by an efficient short range protocol, not a spoofing of a long range cell protocol... -- B I have thought this for a long time. Have the phone simply connect to a wireless network, it automatically makes a SIP connection to the provider (AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, whomever) and viola, cell service anywhere you have access to a wireless connection. No need for femtocells. |
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dcurrey
Premium
join:2004-06-29
·ViaTalk
| reply to RockyBB
No one has mentioned it or maybe its just a problem at my house.
I have a multihandset base unit with 4 phones. These phones are placed in all over my house kitchen bedroom living room ect. I have trouble keeping the 4 units in the rooms they belong. They all seem to migrate around the house and end up in strange spots. Have a hard time finding them sometimes.
I couldn't imaging trying to run around looking for my cell phone, and if the battery dies forget it. This is why I went to voip instead of straight to cell phones. |
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chpalmer
join:2002-11-18
Belfair, WA
·wavebroadband
·VOIPo
| said by dcurrey :No one has mentioned it or maybe its just a problem at my house. I couldn't imaging trying to run around looking for my cell phone, and if the battery dies forget it. This is why I went to voip instead of straight to cell phones. My heater has a remote control  Think about that a minute... I have also held out for a tethered phone. |
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avd706
insert annoying animated gif here
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Union, NJ
| reply to dcurrey
I don't have a home phone, just a shared minutes plan. I get free calling 7pm to 7am and free mobile to mobile. I leave the house at 6:30am and get home around 6pm. I use skypeout for international calls, and have convinced most of my overseas relatives to subscribe to skype so even that is free. (No, I don't have skypein) Why do I need a femtocell in my house? I would get one, if I didn't have to pay a monthly fee for one. (p.s. My internet is an aircard fixed in a wi-fi router.) |
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tommy13v
Premium
join:2002-02-15
Glenville NY | reply to pandora
I complained to retentions and received the equipment and service for free. They also threw in 3 months of unlimited calling, after that it would be just a repeater unless I wanted to pay $15 a month for service. |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| reply to Maxo
said by Maxo :I have thought this for a long time. Have the phone simply connect to a wireless network, it automatically makes a SIP connection to the provider (AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, whomever) and viola, cell service anywhere you have access to a wireless connection. that would not work in a moving car, or when walking through the shopping mall. |
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christcorp
Premium
join:2001-05-21
Cheyenne, WY
·Bresnan Online
·VOIPo
| reply to RockyBB
I'm not sure how much I believe FEMTOCELL is really going to impact pots/voip users. It's a very cheap technology, so there's no reason not to deploy it. However, there seems to be a large assumption that cell coverage totally sucks in EVERY home or business. This is totally misleading. I would venture to say that the vast majority of people who have a broadband connection in their home or business, probably already have cell service. As such, if they wanted to use their cell service as their primary phone service, they would have replaced their home POTS/Voip by now. Some have, but most still have voip/pots. I can get cell coverage in the basement, but getting rid of pots/voip 100% with a cell phone was never an option that I thought about. Mainly, because Cell phone quality is no where near as good as pots or voip. It's not a coverage issue, it's a "Radio Technology" issue. My wife, who is definitely technologically deficient, only uses her cell phone when away from the home for convenience. When talking on the phone to her mom or sister, she waits until she is home.
Anyway, femtocell seems convenient when you have broadband and you don't have cell service, and you DON'T want a POTS/voip phone. But for those with cell service available inside their home/business; I don't see why anyone would buy Femtocell service when they can already use their cell phone. With today's plans with a gazillion minutes, it's not really a technology people would spend money on.
But I definitely see some uses for the technology. And, because the technology is relatively inexpensive to use and support, it makes sense to implement it. Sort of like Direcway or WildBlue satellite internet. It's great if that's all you have; but just about anyone with access to DSL, Cable, Wireless, or EVDO/G3 wouldn't even think of satellite internet. Same here. later... mike.... |
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ke4pym
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC
·Verizon BroadbandA..
·Packet8
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to nitzan
said by nitzan :Taking the home phone with you is a great idea in theory - but what if you travel on business and your wife or roommates stay home? one of you gets the home phone - the other doesn't. I do just that. I have configured my Packet8 account to ring my home phone and cell phone at the same time when someone dials my home phone number.
Works like a champ. Never miss calls.
And I agree that I think it's a little early to call the death of VoIP on this technology. After all, if the signal to this device sucks, it still is going to suck when you're using your phone. |
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DracoFelis
Premium
join:2003-06-15
| reply to RockyBB
Like others in this thread, I don't think this will be a death of residential VoIP (even aside from the fact that technically this is just another form of VoIP).
Now, from the cell company's perspective this is clearly "a good thing". After all, the cell company actually gets a monthly fee (from the consumer), AND gets free use of your internet bandwidth (to handle both yours AND other cell calls), and (because you are essentially hosting a mini-tower) ends up having more "coverage" (fewer dropouts) in their coverage map (without having to pay anything to build out new towers). And the cell company even gets "lock in" of their customers (reducing churn), because the customer knows they need that cell plan to get service. So what's not to like, from the cell company's perspective? Granted, the cell company does pay for some VoIP calls, but IMHO that is more than covered by the monthly fee charged the consumer.
OTOH it's much more of a "mixed blessing" from the consumer's end of things. Yes, the person gets "free calls" on their cell phone, but the consumer is paying a monthly fee (which is for the most part no cheaper than many other VoIP alternatives) for that "privilege". Also, the consumer is forced to use those lower sound quality cell phones (land line phones often have much better audio quality than the small speakers and highly compressed CODECs cell phones use), and the consumer is also locked into a contract for those cell phones (which makes this a poor choice for anyone who uses low volume prepaid cell plans). Also, you are effectively providing YOUR internet bandwidth (which especially for "upload" bandwidth can be limited), to help those with cell phones near your building make calls (whereas normal VoIP would only handle YOUR CALLS, not traffic for cell users near you), again for no gain to you. So there are clearly disadvantages (for the consumer) to this approach.
However, even with the normal consumer disadvantages, I can still see this being a real benefit to some consumers with specific needs. For example, if you run a small business, perhaps you would want one of these devices to make it easy for cell users to connect while in your establishment? Or perhaps you are a family that already has a large (number of minutes) cell phone "family plan" (and where family members already do most of their talking from their cell phone), and therefore this is a cheap/easy way to lower costs (and/or get more talking) when "home". So there are clearly some consumers that might benefit from such a device in their home or their business.
But I think for most VoIP users, the convenience of having our own "home number", that is separate from our cell phones is a plus. And likewise more traditional VoIP sound quality is likely to sound better (overall) than these cell phone mini-tower devices. Finally, don't forget that one key advantage of VoIP, is that VoIP to VoIP calls are free (except for internet bandwidth). Unless the cell companies add such "dialing options" to their plans (unlikely IMHO), you lose that advantage if/when you pick one of these devices over a more traditional BYOD VoIP solution. |
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priller
join:2000-10-20
Gainesville, VA
·voip.ms
·Callcentric
·Vonage
·callwithus
| reply to christcorp
The primary reason carriers are looking at femtocell is to reduce the load on the cellular network, not as a great coverage benefit in your home. The real benefit is to the carrier, not the consumer. Therefore, the carriers should be providing femtocells dirt cheap.
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| reply to RockyBB
said by RockyBB :said by Maxo :I have thought this for a long time. Have the phone simply connect to a wireless network, it automatically makes a SIP connection to the provider (AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, whomever) and viola, cell service anywhere you have access to a wireless connection. that would not work in a moving car, or when walking through the shopping mall. I was meaning that wireless was an alternate way to make a voice call, not superseding regular cell towers. |
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PX Eliezer
Premium
join:2008-08-09
New Jersey
·Callcentric
·Optimum Voice
·callwithus
·voip.ms
| reply to priller
....and I imagine that the cable companies and ISP's will take notice of this increased use of their networks. It's not a huge traffic factor for them, but it will increase complaints, and increase customer support costs...
...so they will want to be compensated by someone, because of their increased costs, or just because it gives them an excuse to demand more money... |
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