[Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP in VOIP Tech Chat

[Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP in VOIP Tech Chat http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21343394 en Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:30:55 EDT Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:30:55 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22041131 Eat Me :

said by liderbug

:

Also forgot to mention. When you go on vacation take the router with you. You check in to a motel with internet - just plug your unit in and start calling .... :-/

That is provided you're vacationing in the USA. If you're outside of the US the femtocells won't work.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22041131 Mon, 09 Mar 2009 16:34:52 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22041066 liderbug : Also forgot to mention. When you go on vacation take the router with you. You check in to a motel with internet - just plug your unit in and start calling .... :-/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22041066 Mon, 09 Mar 2009 16:25:00 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22040881 liderbug : As I understand "anything" via the femtocell/router is unlimited - no bill/charge. I can say for sure ;-) when I get my first bill.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22040881 Mon, 09 Mar 2009 15:50:46 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22040862 RockyBB :

said by liderbug

:

Update: ... Will wonders never end .....

congrats! Hey, I'm not too familiar with the T-M line (and I haven't read your older posts) ... if you make a call from your new BB when you're within range of the @Home box, do the minutes count against your T-M plan allowance (like Verizon), or are they free minutes (like Sprint)?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22040862 Mon, 09 Mar 2009 15:47:25 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22040644 liderbug : Update: We were in Sams on Sunday - to "just look" at the various cell phones available with @Home. Turned out they had 2, both BBs. The salesman handed us a BB Curve and said "call home". ..... ah, not without a stylus! !$!@## I never thought you could make a button that small. He said "we're having a special..... [ sigh ]" So we took home a router for $10 and 2 BB Pearl Flips for $60 ea with family plan. (with the trackball). They had temp numbers. Plugged every thing in and ... freek'n magic ... both cells worked. Plugged in my desk phone and ... it worked too. Will wonders never end ..... ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22040644 Mon, 09 Mar 2009 15:18:14 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22020454 liderbug : Sounds like the voice of experience. Like me - ISP vs DSL - Not OUR problem - go talk to ______.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22020454 Thu, 05 Mar 2009 15:13:44 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22019386 RockyBB : You'll need to double check with T-M, but I don't think they'll get you the @Home router without a cell phone account. If I'm right, you'll establish the cell phone account first, coincident with the order for the @Home. After your evaluation that everything works, you'll port the cell phone numbers, and the Qwest number. As with all porting timelines, do NOT cancel your phone service with the losing provider -- let the port process move your active phone number. Expect the cell phone numbers to transfer within a few hours, the POTS number will take a few weeks. After the ports complete, then you call the losing carrier to confirm service cancellation. You'll need to make double sure with Qwest that the port out of your phone number will not take down the HSI (fka DSL) service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22019386 Thu, 05 Mar 2009 12:31:23 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22019298 liderbug : ... next fantasy ... LOL :)

Cell is VZ and ISP is Qwest. I've checked with Qwest: switching to smallbusiness, with Qwest as both DSL & ISP (there will be NO finger pointing). My plan (har har) is to order, receive, setup TM @home router - configure firewall etc. A couple of days later roll VZ cells(2) to TM - keeping numbers. Once that is working ok then call Qwest and switch from residential (phone $40(inc tax), dsl $54) to SB dsl only $60(inc tax) Oh, and VZ $80. Total (OMG) $175. And rolling pots number to @Home home number (flash shows inserting sim card in back of unit - sweet)

New total: 60+70 = 130 (140??) - I get what I want and for $30 cheaper ???? Prob.not.but........

Film@11]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22019298 Thu, 05 Mar 2009 12:18:34 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22018382 RockyBB :

said by liderbug

:

Everybody's situation is different - for me, ... + cute redhead

Let's get the phones working before moving on to the next fantasy... ;)

You didn't mention your high speed internet provider. If it's cable, everything is easy. If it's DSL, then you'll have to coordinate with the Bell company (assuming Qwest) to release your phone number while converting your HSI (aka DSL) to standalone status.

once your Bell number ports to T-Mobile, be sure to disconnect your inside wiring from the Bell network inside the interface box on the outside of your home PRIOR to connecting the T-Mobile box to any wall jack.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22018382 Thu, 05 Mar 2009 09:27:06 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22018282 liderbug : Apr 14, 2009 - current VZ contract ends. To-wit the reason for my activity on this subject. I consider the TM solution to be .. 95%. From what I can tell TM is the ONLY fem with a RJ11. VZ's fem is $250 up front and no RJ11 (why would we do that when we can sell you VOIP @ $25/mo?).

Everybody's situation is different - for me, TM works the best. 100% would be: me on some beach sans phone ;-)
(and boss, and AH co-workers, and bills, and and and and....)

Ko-e-nut mit rum + cute redhead, gentle wind, sand ... :-) ... [ sigh ]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22018282 Thu, 05 Mar 2009 09:12:05 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22016968 RockyBB : For the casual lurkers here, realize that T-Mobile's Hotspot@Home product is an add-on to their cellular service, not a standalone offer. So be sure to understand any remaining contract commitments you have to your current cellular provider, and also to check traditional coverage maps to ensure that you can use the cell phone where you typically expect to be able to do so. »www.t-mobile.com has a coverage map link on their homepage, bottom left side (at least tonight that's where it is).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22016968 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 23:13:30 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22016789 liderbug : Just got off the phone with T-Mobile. They have a femtocell they call Hotspot@Home and it has a RJ-11 so you can plug in your wireless base unit with your pots number. They have 2 units if I read things right w & w/o a 4 port RJ-45. Looks like it will run me (w/tax) ~$80/month. However I can cut my Qwest bill by ? $30 ? by dropping pots and going DSL only.

[ Actiontec 704 for sale ??? ]

Unless someone can come up with something better...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22016789 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 22:31:28 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22014889 jay_rm :

said by liderbug

:

Here is my situation: I live in a treed area just over the hill - Can you hear me now? No! 300 ft up the road, Yes, but not in the house. So, a femtocell looks good and I can loose my POTS - or can I?

If you're going to spend money anyway, maybe all you need is a cellular repeater.

»www.wilsoncellular.us/cell-phone···c-3.html
--
3500/512 5.7 GHz Motorola Canopy Wireless; FoxValley.net
'It looks just like a Telefunken U47 !']]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22014889 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 17:24:45 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22014838 liderbug : Close - it's an wired black rotary wall phone. And we have a CL in the kitchen, one in the BR, and one down in the FR. Some one said T-Mobile's unit had a RJ-11. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22014838 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 17:16:13 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22014401 dcm :

said by RockyBB

:

hmmm. what animal instinct would make you remember to retrieve the cordless phone before the journey to the garage that would also make you forget to retrieve the cell phone prior to that journey? wouldn't it more likely be the case that your cell and your cordless would be sitting right next to each other, in the wrong room? :D

Some people have phones in their garage.

I personally have a handset in each bedroom, office, living room, kitchen, and basement. I have to remember to take one into the bathroom. ;)

My cell phone is not an additional appendage, so it's very unlikely that I'd ever give up my "landline" (VoIP in my case).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22014401 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 16:03:13 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22014369 nitzan : Maybe he has a cordless unit in his garage (or close to it)? :) that's the beauty of multi-handset cordless - you can add a base and handset anywhere.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22014369 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 15:58:57 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22014251 RockyBB :

said by liderbug

:

The flip side is I lay my cell on the dresser Fri PM and wander out to the garage Sat AM .... screwed!

hmmm. what animal instinct would make you remember to retrieve the cordless phone before the journey to the garage that would also make you forget to retrieve the cell phone prior to that journey? wouldn't it more likely be the case that your cell and your cordless would be sitting right next to each other, in the wrong room? :D I do agree with your premise, nonetheless, that it would be awesome if the next generation of the femtocells had an RJ11 jack and appropriate electronics to share traditional single line phones and house wiring.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22014251 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 15:41:23 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22014210 dcurrey : Have a similar problem myself do get fair coverage at my house but as far as caring your cell around get a blue tooth gateway. If you cell is in range it connect to it via blue tooth. Then the gateway has rj-11 to hook to your house wiring.

see: »www.amazon.com/Intellitouch-ITC-···00S1W7ES

Also see my original question about the device at »Bluetooth Gateways]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22014210 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 15:35:22 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22014197 nitzan :

said by liderbug

:

Who has a unit that allows connections to a base unit for a cordless phone - they have my business :-)

Pretty much any VoIP provider. :)

Start here: »/gbu]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22014197 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 15:33:27 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22014089 liderbug : Here is my situation: I live in a treed area just over the hill - Can you hear me now? No! 300 ft up the road, Yes, but not in the house. So, a femtocell looks good and I can loose my POTS - or can I? If I call Qwest and drop my pots (and have a femto) I have to carry my cell all over the house - 24x7. If the femto unit had a RJ-11 that would connect to the house wiring (or a base unit) life would be good. The flip side is I lay my cell on the dresser Fri PM and wander out to the garage Sat AM .... screwed!

Who has a unit that allows connections to a base unit for a cordless phone - they have my business :-)

Thanks]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22014089 Wed, 04 Mar 2009 15:15:10 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21811203 christcorp : He has no need for a home phone other than he can't get cell service. With cell service he would save all the money. He wouldn't need to spend even 1 penny for another phone. There's actually quite a few people who can live on just a cell phone. QUITE A FEW! Not everyone needs thousands of minutes. The vast majority of voip/home users actually don't use more than 500-1000 minutes at the very most. It's the rare few that need more, and thus are the ones who "Debate" or "Complain" of the all illusive "UNLIMITED MINUTES" statement. Even VOIP is a waste of money for a lot of people.

My only thing, as Nitzan properly pointed out; the vast majority of users of cell phones already have coverage. They aren't in a position where a $250 investment; or even less; is needed. If they were going to cancel their POTS for using Cell; they would have already done it. They don't gain anything with Femtocell. Maybe; be if here; Femtocell providers offered additional/free minutes, it MIGHT add a few users, but it's not going to be significant. Femtocell is definitely a small niche market. It helps the cell companies keep some customers, but that's about all. Even for commercial use, the current Femtocell micro-cell tower system only supports around 3-5 phones. So putting it in an office bldg for customers isn't even all that practical. Oh well; it's another topic for debate. later... mike....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21811203 Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:13:31 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21810582 dcm :

said by christcorp

:

He did try voip for a while. It worked fine. But he was still paying $24 +/- a month. He still has his cell phone, and therefore, Femtocell lets hime save anywhere from $24-$60 depending.

Maybe you should suggest that he try F9, Callcentric (w/ dirt cheap DID) or Voicestick PAYG plans.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21810582 Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:29:08 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21810412 kieranmullen : In my neck of the woods we have Cricket Wireless for unlimited cell usage.
»www.mycricket.com/

said by nitzan

:

As far as giving unlimited minutes and all that - again - their prices are still higher than VoIP, and will always be higher than VoIP. Verizon tops 'em all with not even providing additional minutes.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21810412 Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:56:38 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21810246 christcorp : I won't say that the technology is useless. To the 90%; I agree. But there are some; a particular technician that works for me; that lives just out of town. If his cell phone had coverage, he probably wouldn't even have a home phone. He has one in case he needs to make a call or someone needs to call him. He does however have wireless broadband. Such a device would allow him to have cell coverage at home. And for a 1 time charge of $250; with no additional charge other than using his existing cell plan minutes; he can have coverage. In turn, he can disconnect his Ma'bell phone and save $60 a month. (You pay more for POTS when you live outside of the "BASE RATE". I.e. The further away from town you live, the more you pay for. He did try voip for a while. It worked fine. But he was still paying $24 +/- a month. He still has his cell phone, and therefore, Femtocell lets hime save anywhere from $24-$60 depending.

But for the vast majority of residential customers, a $250 investment is a waste of money. They already have cell coverage; OR; in order to use their Cell phone as their SOLE SOURCE OF PHONE; would probably require them to change their cell plan to a HIGHER MINUTE plan to make up for the minutes they used on their POTS. Minimum upgrade in minutes is around $20 a month. You can get really good voip plans for that or less. Especially if you don't use much and go with a PAYG. later... mike....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21810246 Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:26:50 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21810058 nitzan : Femtocell will not threaten, touch, impact, or otherwise be associated with VoIP. The wireless carriers are simply not interested in providing cheap access to their customers, so any way you slice it - femtocell will cost more than VoIP.

Not to mention the technology is useless to 90% of people. i.e. if you live in a metro area chances are you're already getting good signal. If you live in the middle of nowhere where there's no reception then having a cell phone is pretty much useless. At best you'd have a pay-as-you-go cell plan or something like that for when you go to town. Joe farmer is not going to buy a Verizon calling plan ($50+) just because he can now get reception at home (but nowhere else). He'd instead buy POTS or VoIP which cost less and sound better.

The whole technology seems more and more as a fad the clearer it gets. It benefits only the carriers, and there's really no incentive for users. They (carriers) should be paying the users to implement it - not the other way around.

As far as giving unlimited minutes and all that - again - their prices are still higher than VoIP, and will always be higher than VoIP. Verizon tops 'em all with not even providing additional minutes.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21810058 Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:56:54 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21808242 christcorp : My question was somewhat rhetorical. I understand the business concept behind it. Just saying I don't agree with it. But the Ma'Bells and Cell Phone companies have shown that they have "SUCH GREAT BUSINESS" plans; so I guess people will continue to trust them. Oh well. It's not my money and I don't have to spend my money on it luckily. I doubt however; as the title states; that Voip is going to be heavily threatened by Femtocell. later... mike...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21808242 Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:51:10 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21808138 RockyBB :

said by christcorp

:

What's the advantage to the cell company?

cell phone management concentrate on two key metrics: average revenue per subscriber and churn. By placing this device inside a home, the carriers are betting that eliminating the in-home problem will make customers stickier, and reduce churn. Collecting a monthly fee (as Sprint does in most cases), increases average revenue.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21808138 Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:31:30 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21807899 christcorp : Possibly. But what if you have cell coverage in your home? Does the Femtocell appear as a stronger signal that the cell phone will grab, or with the cell phone automatically grab it's HOME SIGNAL which they are designed to do. I.e. grabbing a home/provider tower before it grabs a roaming tower.

If they provided true free minutes, it might be fine. But even then I'm not to sure about it. What's the advantage to the cell company? The person isn't giving up their cell phones just because they have voip or POTS. If it's a marketing method to get people to give up their voip or pots, again, the cell phone company doesn't gain that many customers. Most people already have cell phones. And if the additional use minutes via Femtocell are free, then they aren't gaining any additional revenue. Again; for the person living in BFE without cell coverage; and they have to pay a lot for a POTS; I can see it. I can also see it for businesses, high rise bldgs, etc... to provide cell coverage for those doing business there. I just don't see it for a residential customer. But then again, a lot of consumers buy and use things that is a novelty or gadget and they don't mind spending money. later... mike....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21807899 Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:47:05 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21807612 RockyBB :

said by christcorp

:

Especially if you have to pay $250 just to hook it up.

Obviously, with a $250 price tag Verizon doesn't expect 100% mass acceptance. But if it was free and you got free minutes with it, then you would be way on the other side of the continuum. Several Sprint customers have reported they were able to chisel the price to free, and Sprint's policy is free minutes through their box. So with a free box and free minutes, is the technology more interesting? Wouldn't a good number of folks no longer see the need for land line or VOIP line?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21807612 Mon, 26 Jan 2009 09:54:07 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21807574 christcorp : Except for the person who lives in the middle of BFE; where they get no cell coverage; I really can't see the use for FEMtocell. Especially if you have to pay $250 just to hook it up. Just don't see it. I live in one of those states that INVENTED BFE towns. Those who can't get cell coverage at home either have a POTS line or they use VOIP at home. Voip users tend to got with PAYG or low bandwidth providers like Packet8 or Vonage. Mentioning the dependability of their broadband is a non-player, because without it there's also no Femtocell.

I can see the service in High Rise bldgs or such where there's little cell coverage, but even then there are better ways to increase cell coverage. Again, I just don't get it. We have an office bldg where cell coverage is spotty. For the same $250-$300; an external antenna, 3 watt booster, and passive indoor antenna took care of coverage problems. And it did it without using bandwidth from the data network. office phones were POTS or Voip. This is obviously something the cell phone companies would like. It saves them money from installing additional towers. And for those in BFE I guess it's handy. But as a residential user it just seems a waste of money. Voip is better. For businesses, Femtocell is probably good for their customers. Assuming of course they have the right provider. later... mike...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21807574 Mon, 26 Jan 2009 09:45:56 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21804219 burris :

said by rugby

:

I agree that the technology is cool, but why make somebody pay to have their cellphones actually get reception? Seems like the provider ought to give these to people to stop them from leaving their service for another provider, not make them pay extra for them.

This is one of the best thoughts I have heard expressed on this subject..or any other business related issues, for that matter..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21804219 Sun, 25 Jan 2009 14:32:25 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21804214 RockyBB :

said by rugby

:

why make somebody pay to have their cellphones actually get reception? Seems like the provider ought to give these to people to stop them from leaving their service for another provider, not make them pay extra for them.

VzW must have figured that anyone unhappy with in-home coverage has already left. So that concept is not in play. They are selling lots of benefits: free on-net calling, "best network," and all the rest ... network extender simply addresses that pesky in-home coverage problem for some customers.

As market leader, it seems like they are employing the old Harvard Business School life cycle pricing model ... introduce at a high price, wait until sales go down then lower the price, wait until sales go down again then sweeten the offer (free minutes?), then milk it as a cash cow.

Sprint, as not market leader, has to have some differential advantage to persuade retention and changeover, so they give free minutes.

If it were me, I would have given free minutes and clobbered Sprint and AT&T once and for all.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21804214 Sun, 25 Jan 2009 14:31:29 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21804121 rugby : I agree that the technology is cool, but why make somebody pay to have their cellphones actually get reception? Seems like the provider ought to give these to people to stop them from leaving their service for another provider, not make them pay extra for them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21804121 Sun, 25 Jan 2009 14:08:06 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21804077 druber :

said by rugby

:

This just sounds silly, $250 for a device that doesn't actually save me any money? All it does is give me better reception in my house (or office)?

Am I missing something?

What you are missing is that there are a lot of people who have a broadband connection, but lousy (or no) cellphone service in their home. Whether this is enough to justify, who knows, but it's not preposterous...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21804077 Sun, 25 Jan 2009 13:59:57 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21804022 rugby : This just sounds silly, $250 for a device that doesn't actually save me any money? All it does is give me better reception in my house (or office)?

Am I missing something?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21804022 Sun, 25 Jan 2009 13:48:22 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21803976 RockyBB : The Verizon femtocell offer is now real. See »www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/stor···emtocell

But they won't be giving free minutes for calls through the device:

All rates and policies associated with your chosen calling plan also apply when connected to the Network Extender.

Interesting that they are forfeiting that differential advantage to Sprint and AT&T...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21803976 Sun, 25 Jan 2009 13:37:47 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21767785 RockyBB :

said by RockyBB

:

My opinion: Once in the hands of the marketing powerhouse of Verizon Wireless, the misunderstood femtocell will make residential VOIP (and POTS lines) unnecessary for a vast majority of the population.

Now the real action begins! »Verizon Femtocells Arrive January 25

[EDIT] I just read through the "leaked" documentation cited in the link above, and it does NOT say that calls made through the femtocell won't count against the plan allowance -- which is different than Sprint's femtocell policy. We'll have to see what the official marketing policies look like. If Verizon Wireless is going to keep all the economic rent, then their market penetration with this product won't be so widespread as I predicted -- which might be the intent as they already have the market power in that industry.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21767785 Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:51:55 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21706472 voip_user : What about this service from T-mobile, if you already have a tmobile cell phone then this just another $10 add-on for unlimited minutes

»www.theonlyphoneyouneed.com/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21706472 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 21:39:39 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21706223 Millenniumle : Thank you everyone for the info.

Thank you espaeth for the fax service info. I was not aware they even existed. :D I feel as though I'm from within a box.

Our copier dupes as a scanner. As long as it can scan multiple pages like it can copy multiple pages it's a viable option. We have multi-page reports that are faxed between offices and it would be cumbersome to scan 30+ pages, one at a time. We'll need pdf software too.

Our single remaining pots line for fax and monitoring costs over $50 per month, including toll calls. Thank you again.

Have you found Maxemail to sell your fax number to junk faxers? Our local phone is terrible. Hook up a new line and within a week you're inundated. :D It's been a problem for the 20 years I've run offices in this town. Bastards cost a lot in toner and paper. Of course, in Maxemail's case it would be email instead of toner.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21706223 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:59:26 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21705387 espaeth :

said by Millenniumle

:

If we had a reliable fax option we can convert the monitoring to radio. Soooo...... fax seems to be the only concern.

Why not outsource the fax service?

They money you save over POTS would go a long way toward paying for a fax service like maxemail, trustfax, or efax.

Personally I pay $24/year to Maxemail and get all my incoming faxes as PDFs attached to email. Anything I need to fax out I just feed through the scanner and simply upload the PDF to be faxed through their service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21705387 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 18:32:43 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21704786 RockyBB :

said by Millenniumle

:

a result of VoIP signal sampling. Does Femtocell tech suffer the same sampling problem?

You got a bigger problem: there's no jack. It's wireless, for handheld phones that you talk into. For the same reason that anyone with a fax machine at home needs a POTS line for drama-free faxing, you would still need it if you're talking through a femtocell device, because the femtocell is for talking, as is VOIP.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21704786 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:55:28 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21703775 nitzan : Signal sampling is not the problem. It is jitter (packets arriving out of order) and packet loss that cause most problems with data over VoIP.

Femtocells inherently has the same problems. In fact I am willing to bet VoIP is more reliable in this area since you can at least tweak your adapter settings to compensate (example: »www.future-nine.com/faq/index.ph···tlang=en).

But overall- if you want business reliability - stay on POTS for your data purposes. Neither VoIP nor Femtocells is ready for prime time in this respect.
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21703775 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:15:00 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21703218 Millenniumle : My office remains tethered to POTS for two reasons:

1. Fax over VoIP is horribly unreliable.
2. Our fire alarm monitoring is also unreliable over VoIP.

As I understand it both are a result of VoIP signal sampling. Does Femtocell tech suffer the same sampling problem? It seems similar to VoIP to me, where the cell signal is sampled and converted to IP packets.

If we had a reliable fax option we can convert the monitoring to radio. Soooo...... fax seems to be the only concern. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21703218 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:42:50 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21646194 RockyBB :

said by christcorp

:

I guess my point is; I see FEMTOCELL via a person's existing broadband connection as a NICHE market. Not for the common customers. In my house, I get great cell service. Why would I pay ADDITIONALLY to have my cell service come over my broadband connection and retransmitted in my house??? Seems like a major waste of money.

There are several residential markets.

For the single person living alone, the femtocell allows them to have a single phone number and voice mail, without having to worry about going over their minute allowance when calling from home during evening hours. If the monthly cost of the femtocell is less than the monthly cost of the landline/VOIP then the "wireless substitution" is compelling.

For newly merged family with no kids yet, the femtocell allows two individuals to combine into a family plan with unlimited minutes from home at all hours. This would reduce the need for a home landline/VOIP phone. Once the cell carriers allow port-in of POTS numbers unanchored to individual phones, then folks can keep their long established phone numbers.

For the family with kids, where everyone has their own cell phone number and voice mail, the femtocell allows everyone to make calls simultaneously from home, with personal VM, without having to adjust the cellular minute allowance. Once the cell carriers allow port-in of the family phone number with a call director feature (dial one for Dad, two for Mom, three for Junior), then there would be no need for the family phone -- with the added benefit of everyone can use their own phone at the same time, without a shared VM box. So long as the monthly cost of the femtocell family plan is less than the monthly cost of the landline/VOIP then the "wireless substitution" is compelling.

Certainly there are other markets, and there will be other niche needs (call blocking, caller ID, anonymity, international rates, etc) many of which can be addressed with sophisticated portals and marketing decisions.

I'm just pointing out the gold mine, I'm not handing out any shovels.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21646194 Sun, 28 Dec 2008 13:18:16 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21645491 espaeth :

said by christcorp

:

Why would I pay ADDITIONALLY to have my cell service come over my broadband connection and retransmitted in my house???

The fees are minimal, and usually calls made through the femtocell don't count against your plan minutes. Being able to trim down to a single phone number, single voicemail, and having "unlimited" talk time at home is a pretty compelling feature.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21645491 Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:29:00 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21644976 christcorp : I agree Rocky that the cell providers using existing broadband infrastructure to expand their services is definitely cheaper than expanding their own hardware. As pointed out; similar to Voip replacing phone service.

I guess my perception however is this. Of all the broadband services, DSL and Cable seem to be the only viable options. Of the two, DSL is really the only option. Let me explain. Yes, the service will work on T1 and every other type of service. However, that is a small minority. Next; cable broadband "NORMALLY" only exists within populated city limit type areas. As such; there is usually very decent cell coverage in those areas, so the cell providers wouldn't really have a need for that technology. Satellite has way too much latency for good quality voice packets. And wireless is pretty much side to side with cell service. Chances are, if there's wireless available, cellular has a good signal also.

Not to say that this always the truth. Yes there will be those large office building where cell coverage is terrible. Yes there will be the rural customer who can't get a cell signal but gets DSL. Yes to a few other scenarios. I guess my point is; I see FEMTOCELL via a person's existing broadband connection as a NICHE market. Not for the common customers. In my house, I get great cell service. Why would I pay ADDITIONALLY to have my cell service come over my broadband connection and retransmitted in my house??? Seems like a major waste of money. Sort of like living across the street from a Free WIFI hotspot. Why would you buy DSL or cable? Guess I just don't see it; other than a niche market. later...mike.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21644976 Sun, 28 Dec 2008 01:38:34 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21644802 RockyBB :

said by oddgeezer

:

Does anything "bad" happen if the cell phone happens to be out-of-range, or turned off when there is an incoming call?

Those are two different circumstances. If the phone is off, then the voice mail on the cell will take the call, and the other phones in the simul-ring will stop ringing...this effect is neutralized if the receipient is required to press a button (typically 1) to take the call. If the phone is out of range, then there is no impact to the other phones.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21644802 Sun, 28 Dec 2008 00:19:28 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21644716 oddgeezer : To user ke4pym

I have configured my Packet8 account to ring my home phone and cell phone at the same time when someone dials my home phone number.

Does anything "bad" happen if the cell phone happens to be out-of-range, or turned off when there is an incoming call?

I don't know anything about voip and cell phones, is why I ask. Your arrangement sounds great to me.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21644716 Sat, 27 Dec 2008 23:52:20 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21644016 DogFace05 : The bottom line is capacity, and by extension, cost. Cellular operators paid exhorbitant licensing fees, in government run auctions, to buy spectrum rights for cellular use. This cost has to be viewed in relation to its allocation per subscriber, which depends on the technology's capacity and utilization. Any technology that can increase the achievable service capacity for a given spectrum bandwidth, directly translates to a corresponding decrease in cost.

You say that cellular providers have the best technology available. Well, Mike, there's no such thing as 'the best technology'. Each technology serves a given purpose, and today's cellular certainly does well for its intended purpose, which is to provide MOBILE service. In other words, cellular is designed to operate at power levels appropriate for mobile application, and therefore service coverage per base station that spans radii in the order of miles. But, for stationary or near stationary use, ie for service coverage limited to the confines of a home or business, it's extremely inefficient and wasteful.

For any given spectrum bandwidth, any wireless technology is going to be constrained to a certain capacity. The higher the operating power of the technology, the wider the coverage area, and thus the lesser the achievable capacity density will be. For every reduction in the operating power such that the coverage area is reduced in half, the capacity density quadruples and thus also the number of subscribers that can be served in the same area, if the number of base stations are also increased to provide full coverage over the same area.

This is what femtocell, and other technologies like DECT are, in essence--nothing more than low power cellular, designed to lower the area of coverage per base station, and thus dramatically increase the capacity density, and therefore the number of subscribers that can be served. This translates to more subscribers, and more bandwidth available to each subscriber.

Coupled with advances in technoloqy and manufacturing that now permit producing such equipment at very low cost, plus that these technologies are designed to be operable in the free unlicensed spectra, and not the least, that the equipment (femtocell, etc, basestations) are generally owned by the end user and not subject to the regulatory service quality requirements (battery backing, minimum network access availabilty, etc) imposed on operators, all translate to savings galore for them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21644016 Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:21:23 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21642402 RockyBB :

said by christcorp

:

So why in the world would cellular want to get into bed with a technology that they compete with?

read the last three paragraphs of today's citation. Because it's cheaper! The cell providers get to piggyback for free on the broadband infrastructure that the customer pays for. Same thing as VOIP -- Vonage, Packet 8, VOIPO, none of them pay commissions or royalties to users' home broadband connections. Equally, cell providers don't have to bulk up their wireless networks when the customers provide that path for free. I don't know how things are in Wyoming, but in the rest of the country investment capital is tough to find! "We can increase our call handling capacity for nothing" is a pretty compelling argument in the boardroom. Read through some of the testy comments in my femtocell threads -- "I wouldn't pay for a femtocell when I'm paying for my own broadband -- they should pay me." Exactly! Increase the quality of service inside the home at the customer's expense! If the cell carriers price it right, the value equation will work out in the customer's favor.

Here's a photo of Verizon's version of their femtocell: »www.slashgear.com/verizon-femtoc···0521503/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21642402 Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:29:58 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21642353 christcorp : I've only gotten a little educated on Femtocell; but I have to honestly say that I don't understand it's use. Not the use of bringing phone indoors to improve coverage. But why team up and use a technology that uses dsl, cable, etc...

Cellular providers have the best technology already available to them. WIRELESS!!! It's the cheapest to install and maintain. I am already using plenty of devices like "Telular" to take cell service and bring it to places where normal dialup and DSL/Cable isn't available. I can use these telulars to tie into the building inside wiring and run traditional phones for voice, dialup, fax, telemetry, etc... And I can add external cell data modems such as Airlink (Similar to PCMCIA or USB data modems) residential users have now. And with EVDO and LTE, bandwidths exceeding DSL/Cable are going to be seen soon. Current EVDO-A is already equal to or better than a lot of DSL.

So why in the world would cellular want to get into bed with a technology that they compete with? Cellular has the capability to totally put pots, voip, dsl, cable, satellite, and wireless totally out of business. A truly cellular system with unlimited voice and data "THAT IS TOTALLY PORTABLE" is the ultimate. No one needs voip or pots if their cell system didn't cost so much. No one would need DSL or cable if cellular data didn't cost so much.

Not saying Femtocell doesn't have so possible uses; just saying if I was Verizon, ATT, T-mobile, etc... I would be looking at making my cellular voice and data a system that would REPLACE ALL THE OTHER voice and data services. I wouldn't be trying to build a technology that relies on someone else's technology. later... mike....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21642353 Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:13:33 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21642287 RockyBB : another trade article on femtocells: »www.vpico.com/articlemanager/pri···e=216036

It uses a phrase I hadn't heard before, "wireless substitution." Meaning substituting wireless for landlines. This could also apply to substituting wireless for residential VOIP.

IMO, once femtocells are deployed by the cell providers, they need to do only a few things to ensure the demise of the residential landline & VOIP businesses. 1. develop an online control portal, 2. develop voice mail to email capability, 3. permit additional phone numbers (to support the "main" home phone number), in addition to a number for each user, 4. then market the crap out of the new converged service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21642287 Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:57:16 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21463259 RockyBB : new trade article on femtocells: »www.networkworld.com/news/2008/1···r-a.html

It's rather long so I won't post the text, but nicely done. The author does not speculate on the impact to landlines or residential VOIP, but does a good job in explaining the technology.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21463259 Fri, 21 Nov 2008 12:45:04 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21355584 B : Hmmm.... you make a good case. ;)

On the one hand I really like simplicity and fewer points of failure; on the other hand the idea of equipping an entire household with cell phones and essentially unlimited service using only the lowest tier "family plan" has merit...

First sketch requirements:

DISA enabled device or Asterisk/FreePBX PC. I'm guessing only a PC (or actual PBX) makes sense, to avoid interfering with normal household use of the VoIP line.

Smart phone per user. (Any low cost handsets with such "calling card apps"?)

Cellular Family Plan / Faves / etc.

One or more VoIP lines with tolerant providers....

Still sounds like work. ;)

-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21355584 Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:11:53 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21355240 espaeth :

said by B

:

Personally I'd probably find it too inconvenient to make calls this way anyhow...

With a calling card app on a smartphone the process is entirely transparent. You select a normal entry from your phone book or dial a regular phone number as you normally would and the app intercepts the standard dialing process and does all of the workaround dialing for you. The only thing you notice is the extra time it takes before your called number starts ringing.

I'm on a 500 minute plan with Sprint. I end up using about 300 minutes of that mostly in inbound calls to my cell phone. I typically use anywhere from 350-500 minutes of outbound "free" calls to my "home number," and maybe another 400-500 in night & weekend minutes.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21355240 Fri, 31 Oct 2008 12:05:28 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21355093 nitzan : These days there actually are SIM card addons (fit over your existing SIM card) that will route your phone via a selected access number without you having to actually dial it.

I haven't tried them however, so no idea how well they work.
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21355093 Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:42:07 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21354952 B : Fair enough; it's just that there's a big gap between the two extremes (500 and 5,000 minutes)... If one were determined to use it for all "non-fave" calls, it could add up pretty quickly even only for personal use. Many people use their cell phones A LOT.

Personally I'd probably find it too inconvenient to make calls this way anyhow...

-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21354952 Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:17:33 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21354623 nitzan : I think the gist of it is that they don't want you to do a DISA or calling card type thing, which totally makes sense.

I seriously doubt they're going to know or care if you do your own DISA and make a few hundred minutes of calls a month. TOS like a lot of other legal contracts is there not because they want you to see it upfront - but to give them the power to boot you off should you abuse it. 500 minutes of DISA there's no way they'll even look at your account. 5000 minutes and they'll boot you off quicker than you can say "Vonage".

I say this with first-hand experience, you know.. as a VSP we don't look nor care if someone makes moderate business use on their line. But if you're going to run a call center off of a residential account... we make full use of our TOS. I suspect the same goes for T-Mo/Alltel/etc. - as long as they're making money on your account I doubt they really care.
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21354623 Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:21:36 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21354553 B : I guess, but I thought that could be read either way... at first I thought it meant that more than 500 people could access the number, when only you intend to, though that does sound wrong.... but even reading that it means dial-in, dial out service, if you know you won't use it to access more than 500 different "persons" (which is likely over the course of, say, 2 years, for most people) then it still might fit the letter of the contract.

Heck I don't know -- the way it's worded you can't make your school or workplace a "fave" if more than 500 people work there!

Also, for what it's worth, I did not see any of that wording anywhere in the ToS I saw at T-Mobile, only on the info/order page I quoted.

-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21354553 Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:09:26 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21354062 avd706 :

said by B

:

Okay... just one...

*Your five numbers must be US domestic numbers and must not include 411, voicemail, toll-free, 900, calling card, and customers' own numbers; and single numbers allowing access to 500 or more persons.

So the idea is already a violation for T-Mobile, at least.

-- B

Actually the non-compliance is here.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21354062 Fri, 31 Oct 2008 08:30:29 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21353213 B : Thanks for the very complete answers! Clever setup.

I still bet there are some clear ToS violations involved (I recall reading, I think, about one for T-Mobile), but I am far too lazy to check. :)

Okay... just one...

*Your five numbers must be US domestic numbers and must not include 411, voicemail, toll-free, 900, calling card, and customers' own numbers; and single numbers allowing access to 500 or more persons.

So the idea is already a violation for T-Mobile, at least.

-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21353213 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 23:47:01 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21352043 espaeth :

said by B

:

Can we expand on that a little? Aside from it being clearly against the cell providers' terms of service, does this technically require a home PBX to do the DISA, or are there ATAs that allow it? (I'm guessing the former.)

Why would it be against the cell provider's ToS? They have programs that allow unlimited calling between your cell and the number(s) of your choice for personal use. I have Sprint, and use Sprint to Home to call my house for personal use. There are some ATAs that allow for this, in particular the SPA3102 will take calls in on a POTS line and let you dial out via the VoIP service if you enter a passcode. I'm doing the Direct Inward System Access on my Asterisk PBX at home. If an incoming call matches the CID of my cell phone the call is presented with a passcode prompt, and then from there a dialtone that will match numbers dialed against my dialplan.

said by B

:

Can the DISA feature be made transparent, or would it always involve, at minimum, waiting for the home line to answer and then pressing a # or quick key to transmit a passcode?

It's just like using a calling card. In fact, I use a calling card app on my Sprint Mogul phone that takes some numbers I dial and automatically calls home, enters the pin, and dials the number for me.

said by B

:

Secondly, I gather that the cell provider would have no idea the calls were being forwarded, but are there no limits (call duration, number of calls) for the various "faves" plans? I've never had or used such a plan.

Cell providers have all kinds of unlimited buckets. My Sprint SERO plan has: Unlimited nights & weekends (7pm-7am), Unlimited calls to other Sprint PCS phones (any time of day), and Sprint to Home which for $5 lets me make unlimited calls to or from my home phone. I know folks who sign up for the My Faves plan and run up literally thousands of minutes talking to a significant other. I figure if the carriers aren't concerned about them, they're not going to be concerned with the couple hundred minutes of calls I route through home.

said by B

:

Edit: However, the VoIP provider would know the calls were being forwarded, and might frown on it too, no?

I use different inbound and outbound providers, so there's no way for the VoIP providers to know or care. To my outbound provider it just looks like another placed call, to my inbound provider it's just another inbound call.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21352043 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 19:46:57 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21350669 ptrowski : Front page just posted AT&T are testing them also.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21350669 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:07:48 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21350647 B :

said by espaeth

said by nitzan

:

Yep. Although I do get pissed off every month over and over again when I see my bill (not to mention the time they charged me $200 for 400 overage minutes - crazy!) - it's not like I have a choice. It's either pay up and deal with it - or don't have a cell phone. I need a cellphone. :(

$3.99 Vitelity unlimited DID + (Sprint to Home / T-Mobile My Faves / AllTel MyCircle) + cheap VoIP termination + DISA = problem solved.

Can we expand on that a little? Aside from it being clearly against the cell providers' terms of service, does this technically require a home PBX to do the DISA, or are there ATAs that allow it? (I'm guessing the former.)

Can the DISA feature be made transparent, or would it always involve, at minimum, waiting for the home line to answer and then pressing a # or quick key to transmit a passcode?

Secondly, I gather that the cell provider would have no idea the calls were being forwarded, but are there no limits (call duration, number of calls) for the various "faves" plans? I've never had or used such a plan.

Edit: However, the VoIP provider would know the calls were being forwarded, and might frown on it too, no?

And yeah, I guess this is off topic...

-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21350647 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:03:16 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21350553 dcm :

said by nitzan

:

But my problem is not overuse - it's underuse. I use around 100 minutes a month at most on average. The overage was caused by someone else (long story) and was a one-time thing.

If you only use 100 minutes per month, you should not have a monthly plan. You should be on prepaid. 100 minutes would cost you no more than $10 per month.

Besides only paying for the minutes you use, there's no such thing as an overage charge. :)

I have 2 active pre-paid phones, Page Plus (uses Verizon) and T-Mobile, and spend $3.35 per month ($40 per year). Add in my 2 VoIP lines, VoiceStick and CallCentric/IPkall, and I'm up to $6.35 total. :D

P.S. Before I wised up, I was paying $35 per month for 1 cell phone and $17 for barebones POTS.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21350553 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 14:44:48 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21350054 nitzan :

said by espaeth

said by nitzan

$3.99 Vitelity unlimited DID + (Sprint to Home / T-Mobile My Faves / AllTel MyCircle) + cheap VoIP termination + DISA = problem solved.

I'd go with a Future Nine DID myself, lol. ;)

But my problem is not overuse - it's underuse. I use around 100 minutes a month at most on average. The overage was caused by someone else (long story) and was a one-time thing.
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21350054 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:12:17 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349992 espaeth :

said by nitzan

$3.99 Vitelity unlimited DID + (Sprint to Home / T-Mobile My Faves / AllTel MyCircle) + cheap VoIP termination + DISA = problem solved.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349992 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 12:59:40 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349828 chpalmer : The current infrastructure for the mostpart is very outdated. Relying on cellular infrastructure would be disastrous when all hell breaks loose. Its pretty much designed to fail at that point.

There is no way that an outside resource can come into an area and tell them how to fix their issues if they havent been there to see them operate. Ive seem them try.

That said... Yes state and local do need to have a hand in deployment of their own systems. Just because of the fact that rural areas would be overlooked if they didnt. Too many opinions.

Im not saying I agree fully with how they are doing things with the grants and the auctions... Too many stipulations on what kinds of equipment must be bought. Maybe a good thing for interoperability but it seems to go to far.

Id like to see more local government allowed to use the actual tower real estate for their own infrastructure at greatly reduced cost. This does happen but its not automatic. But where would that end?

Infrastructure is expnsive. And your right. Its not all going to that. I believe its about 1/20th of it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349828 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 12:26:02 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349693 B : Huh? What does the cost of actual infrastructure have to do with the mostly arbitrary price auctioned for the spectrum rights?

-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349693 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:57:59 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349654 nitzan :

said by chpalmer

:

This is a source of the money that's granted to state and local government for much of the new radio infrastructure.

No problem- state and local government should not be the ones deploying the infrastructure. I'm willing to be that if private companies were the ones deploying the infrastructure it would have cost half of what it does when the government is the one controlling the $. Can you say "let's hire my uncle and pay him 3 times what a private company would"? I'm sure it's not that obvious/blatant, but it sounds like a classic project for mass amounts of money to go into government hands only to disappear into private hands.

I know I know, next thing someone's gonna say is "but if private companies do it rural areas are not going to get infrastructure". True- but there's an easy solution for that too - just require a cell carrier who wants to do business in a state to deploy throughout the state and not just in metro areas.

Either way government is going to be involved of course, but I'd rather see government involved in telling the cell giants what to do rather than taking their money (or consumer money, really) and dividing it as they see fit.

As a side note.. I admit to ignorance about infrastructure costs - but I'm pretty sure that you don't need 20 billion to provide infrastructure to the entire US, could probably be done with a fraction of that. No?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349654 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:51:59 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349565 B : The argument could be made that the charge should be much MORE than 20 billion. It's like selling your soul or your first born -- you can only do it once.

Although in this case it's "selling off" that radio spectrum around us that the citizens, theoretically, own collectively. If people weren't so scared of ongoing government involvement in general perhaps some sort of spectrum leasing program could make portions temporarily available to small-time organizational use (or god forbid personal use) at reasonable rates. But I don't know much about how they do this now anyway...

-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349565 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:37:22 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349514 chpalmer :

said by nitzan

:

IMHO the current system where the FCC sells spectrum to the highest bidder is twisted and prevents competition. These "auctions" all look the same - either AT&T or Verizon wins. Not only does it prevent competition because no new player has 20 billion to spend on a bunch of radio waves - it also means the winning party has to inflate their prices to cover the auction costs.

What would have worked and resulted in a fair competitive scene would have been some sort of spectrum management entity like ARIN (that manages IP addresses) which would splice up spectrum and assign it to carriers according to size. There really is no reason why airwaves should cost 20 billion - except for the whole range of pork and AT&T/VZ lobbyists.

This is a source of the money that's granted to state and local government for much of the new radio infrastructure. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349514 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:28:49 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349254 Maxo : I use a prepaid phone. I don't use my cell phone that much, so it works out really well. I pay $30 every two or three months. Some months, like if I go out of town, I can blow through some minutes pretty fast, but overall it is cheaper than a regular plan. I have found that using my landline at home, and other's landline when I am at someone's house and then just tacking on a prepaid phone saves me a lot of money.
--
"Padre, nobody said war was fun now bowl!" - Sherman T Potter

»www.cafepress.com/maxolasersquad

»maxolasersquad.com/

»maxolasersquad.com/network/ My DSL Network Guide

»myspace.com/mlsquad]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349254 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:38:30 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349225 nitzan :

said by B

:

Yeah exactly. Cell phone plans are very expensive. I don't know why this doesn't get more attention -- I think people are just resigned to it and used to it.

Yep. Although I do get pissed off every month over and over again when I see my bill (not to mention the time they charged me $200 for 400 overage minutes - crazy!) - it's not like I have a choice. It's either pay up and deal with it - or don't have a cell phone. I need a cellphone. :(

Cell phones have become essential for many (most?) people, but the service costs too much! I had really expected pricing to come way down by this point.

Thing is, cell spectrum is so expensive that smaller companies stand absolutely no chance whatsoever in getting even a small piece. So what you've got is only a handful of companies completely dominating the market. Since it is a monopoly and there is no real competition - consumers pay the price.

IMHO the current system where the FCC sells spectrum to the highest bidder is twisted and prevents competition. These "auctions" all look the same - either AT&T or Verizon wins. Not only does it prevent competition because no new player has 20 billion to spend on a bunch of radio waves - it also means the winning party has to inflate their prices to cover the auction costs.

What would have worked and resulted in a fair competitive scene would have been some sort of spectrum management entity like ARIN (that manages IP addresses) which would splice up spectrum and assign it to carriers according to size. There really is no reason why airwaves should cost 20 billion - except for the whole range of pork and AT&T/VZ lobbyists.
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349225 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:32:54 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349146 ptrowski :

said by B

:

Yeah exactly. Cell phone plans are very expensive. I don't know why this doesn't get more attention -- I think people are just resigned to it and used to it.

Cell phones have become essential for many (most?) people, but the service costs too much! I had really expected pricing to come way down by this point.

With a data plan, two phones, and moderate usage it's tough to get by for under $100 a month!

-- B

Isn't that the truth...
I have the AT&T Family plan 1400 minutes. The next plan down is 700 minutes which we usually hover around on normal usage. Now if I work from home for a few days in the month my usage will spike and burn through the rollover minutes. Iphone data plan, basic text messaging for the iphone and our bill is around $140/month.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349146 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:17:32 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349091 B : Yeah exactly. Cell phone plans are very expensive. I don't know why this doesn't get more attention -- I think people are just resigned to it and used to it.

Cell phones have become essential for many (most?) people, but the service costs too much! I had really expected pricing to come way down by this point.

With a data plan, two phones, and moderate usage it's tough to get by for under $100 a month!

-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21349091 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:06:51 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21348454 nitzan : I read a little more about it.. Sprint Airave pricing is:

Sprint AIRAVE Base Station - $99.99/each (requires activation at time of purchase and subscription to an AIRAVE plan. Excludes taxes.)
AIRAVE Enhanced Coverage Charge - $4.99/mo. (required per AIRAVE unit)**
Single Line Unlimited Calling Plan (optional) - $10/mo. per account**
Multi-Line (multiple phones sharing minutes on one account) Unlimited Calling Plan (optional) - $20/mo. per account**

So in other words, you pay $100 for the "privilege" of saving them money, and what you get in return is an unlimited plan which costs around $30/month on top of your already-inflated cellular bill... ($5 "Ehanced Coverage Charge" + $20 Multi-Line unlimited plan + taxes and fees)

I take it back - even Vonage won't hurt much if cell carriers think they'll hit a home run with these prices.
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21348454 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 07:01:27 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21348357 usa2k : No from a cell phone - and I only have one VoIP provider ATM.

EDIT:
Nextel on cell while over in Canada was $0.10/minute.
Now on Sprint, its $0.49/minute IIRC!
Same from USA with them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21348357 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 05:29:15 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21347406 PX Eliezer :

said by usa2k

:

As long as Canada is excluded from regular calling ... not too helpful for me.

What provider(s) do you find best for making calls from the USA to Canada?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21347406 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 22:38:34 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21347374 usa2k : As long as Canada is excluded from regular calling ... not too helpful for me.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21347374 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 22:29:01 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21347164 PX Eliezer :

said by pandora

:

Sprint does not seem to advertise this capability at this time. I don't understand why they don't. Anyone who gets nominal reception and has broadband could benefit from it.

Great analysis!

Regarding the advertising/promotion, Sprint does not have a lot of free cash right now, and the organization is in lots of turmoil. Was it a good or bad idea for Sprint to pick Nextel as a partner?

Hence: Not enough cash to advertise, organizational issues, choice of partner. Ironically sounds like one of the presidential candidates..... :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21347164 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:53:42 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345827 pandora :

said by nitzan

:

Granted I am a bit ignorant about the technology, but something that doesn't add up in my mind is the assumption that every family has an internet connection adequate enough to transmit multiple voice streams at once. Let's face it- most "broadband" users these days are still on 768/128 packages or something similar - whatever they can get cheapest from their ISP. Even with compression I don't see that kind of connection passing along more than a couple of calls at a time with good quality. And that's not even taking into effect regular internet usage (read: youtube) by other family members.

I'm familiar as a former customer with the basic AT&T DSL service (known as DSL express) it is 1.5mb down and 384kb up via PPPoE. I was on it when first using Future-Nine, and with other PC's in my home occasionally VOIP had small glitches. Shortly after getting my Future-Nine account, I moved us to Comcast HSI, the basic service is 6 mb down and 1 mb up. Comcast is in the process of doubling that to 12 mb down and 2 mb up for most customers in the next few months.

With 9 PC's and 5 active users, Future-Nine VOIP had occasional issues with AT&T's entry DSL solution, but is fine with Comcast even at their current offer of 6/1.

You are correct, that many broadband users could have issues with Femtocell, but at the same time, many won't.

Those that have issues with Femtocell, likely would have similar issues with VOIP.

At this time the appeal of Sprint's Femtocell will be for customers who use Vonage, CallVantage, even Comcast Digital Voice. As you indicate, the non-high end providers have no threat from this service.

Vonage should be concerned in my opinion. As this provides an affordable alternative from other well known phone service providers for many families. The pricing on the Sprint Femtocell makes most sense for a family plan IF the family makes or gets a lot of calls from home.

Sprint does not seem to advertise this capability at this time. I don't understand why they don't. Anyone who gets nominal reception and has broadband could benefit from it.
--
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345827 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:04:52 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345787 PolarBear :

said by RockyBB

said by Maxo

:

I have thought this for a long time. Have the phone simply connect to a wireless network, it automatically makes a SIP connection to the provider (AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, whomever) and viola, cell service anywhere you have access to a wireless connection.

that would not work in a moving car, or when walking through the shopping mall.

That's funny, it works fine on my T-Mobile Blackberry Curve. When it loses wifi signal, it simply switches back to GSM. And although on the early T-mobile UMA phones battery drain was horrible, the battery on my Curve lasts me 3 days with light use or 1 day with heavy voice use. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345787 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:57:53 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345765 PX Eliezer : ....and I imagine that the cable companies and ISP's will take notice of this increased use of their networks. It's not a huge traffic factor for them, but it will increase complaints, and increase customer support costs...

...so they will want to be compensated by someone, because of their increased costs, or just because it gives them an excuse to demand more money...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345765 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:54:58 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345752 Maxo :

said by RockyBB

said by Maxo

that would not work in a moving car, or when walking through the shopping mall.

I was meaning that wireless was an alternate way to make a voice call, not superseding regular cell towers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345752 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:52:11 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345617 priller : The primary reason carriers are looking at femtocell is to reduce the load on the cellular network, not as a great coverage benefit in your home. The real benefit is to the carrier, not the consumer. Therefore, the carriers should be providing femtocells dirt cheap.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345617 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:28:36 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345583 DracoFelis : Like others in this thread, I don't think this will be a death of residential VoIP (even aside from the fact that technically this is just another form of VoIP).

Now, from the cell company's perspective this is clearly "a good thing". After all, the cell company actually gets a monthly fee (from the consumer), AND gets free use of your internet bandwidth (to handle both yours AND other cell calls), and (because you are essentially hosting a mini-tower) ends up having more "coverage" (fewer dropouts) in their coverage map (without having to pay anything to build out new towers). And the cell company even gets "lock in" of their customers (reducing churn), because the customer knows they need that cell plan to get service. So what's not to like, from the cell company's perspective? Granted, the cell company does pay for some VoIP calls, but IMHO that is more than covered by the monthly fee charged the consumer.

OTOH it's much more of a "mixed blessing" from the consumer's end of things. Yes, the person gets "free calls" on their cell phone, but the consumer is paying a monthly fee (which is for the most part no cheaper than many other VoIP alternatives) for that "privilege". Also, the consumer is forced to use those lower sound quality cell phones (land line phones often have much better audio quality than the small speakers and highly compressed CODECs cell phones use), and the consumer is also locked into a contract for those cell phones (which makes this a poor choice for anyone who uses low volume prepaid cell plans). Also, you are effectively providing YOUR internet bandwidth (which especially for "upload" bandwidth can be limited), to help those with cell phones near your building make calls (whereas normal VoIP would only handle YOUR CALLS, not traffic for cell users near you), again for no gain to you. So there are clearly disadvantages (for the consumer) to this approach.

However, even with the normal consumer disadvantages, I can still see this being a real benefit to some consumers with specific needs. For example, if you run a small business, perhaps you would want one of these devices to make it easy for cell users to connect while in your establishment? Or perhaps you are a family that already has a large (number of minutes) cell phone "family plan" (and where family members already do most of their talking from their cell phone), and therefore this is a cheap/easy way to lower costs (and/or get more talking) when "home". So there are clearly some consumers that might benefit from such a device in their home or their business.

But I think for most VoIP users, the convenience of having our own "home number", that is separate from our cell phones is a plus. And likewise more traditional VoIP sound quality is likely to sound better (overall) than these cell phone mini-tower devices. Finally, don't forget that one key advantage of VoIP, is that VoIP to VoIP calls are free (except for internet bandwidth). Unless the cell companies add such "dialing options" to their plans (unlikely IMHO), you lose that advantage if/when you pick one of these devices over a more traditional BYOD VoIP solution.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345583 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:23:39 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345506 ke4pym :

said by nitzan

:

Taking the home phone with you is a great idea in theory - but what if you travel on business and your wife or roommates stay home? one of you gets the home phone - the other doesn't.

I do just that. I have configured my Packet8 account to ring my home phone and cell phone at the same time when someone dials my home phone number.

Works like a champ. Never miss calls.

And I agree that I think it's a little early to call the death of VoIP on this technology. After all, if the signal to this device sucks, it still is going to suck when you're using your phone.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345506 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:07:11 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345471 christcorp : I'm not sure how much I believe FEMTOCELL is really going to impact pots/voip users. It's a very cheap technology, so there's no reason not to deploy it. However, there seems to be a large assumption that cell coverage totally sucks in EVERY home or business. This is totally misleading. I would venture to say that the vast majority of people who have a broadband connection in their home or business, probably already have cell service. As such, if they wanted to use their cell service as their primary phone service, they would have replaced their home POTS/Voip by now. Some have, but most still have voip/pots. I can get cell coverage in the basement, but getting rid of pots/voip 100% with a cell phone was never an option that I thought about. Mainly, because Cell phone quality is no where near as good as pots or voip. It's not a coverage issue, it's a "Radio Technology" issue. My wife, who is definitely technologically deficient, only uses her cell phone when away from the home for convenience. When talking on the phone to her mom or sister, she waits until she is home.

Anyway, femtocell seems convenient when you have broadband and you don't have cell service, and you DON'T want a POTS/voip phone. But for those with cell service available inside their home/business; I don't see why anyone would buy Femtocell service when they can already use their cell phone. With today's plans with a gazillion minutes, it's not really a technology people would spend money on.

But I definitely see some uses for the technology. And, because the technology is relatively inexpensive to use and support, it makes sense to implement it. Sort of like Direcway or WildBlue satellite internet. It's great if that's all you have; but just about anyone with access to DSL, Cable, Wireless, or EVDO/G3 wouldn't even think of satellite internet. Same here. later... mike....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345471 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:59:18 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345467 RockyBB :

said by Maxo

that would not work in a moving car, or when walking through the shopping mall.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345467 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:58:57 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345456 tommy13v : I complained to retentions and received the equipment and service for free. They also threw in 3 months of unlimited calling, after that it would be just a repeater unless I wanted to pay $15 a month for service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345456 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:56:02 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345447 avd706 : I don't have a home phone, just a shared minutes plan. I get free calling 7pm to 7am and free mobile to mobile. I leave the house at 6:30am and get home around 6pm. I use skypeout for international calls, and have convinced most of my overseas relatives to subscribe to skype so even that is free. (No, I don't have skypein) Why do I need a femtocell in my house? I would get one, if I didn't have to pay a monthly fee for one. (p.s. My internet is an aircard fixed in a wi-fi router.)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345447 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:53:00 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345426 chpalmer :

said by dcurrey

:

No one has mentioned it or maybe its just a problem at my house.

I couldn't imaging trying to run around looking for my cell phone, and if the battery dies forget it. This is why I went to voip instead of straight to cell phones.

My heater has a remote control :o Think about that a minute... I have also held out for a tethered phone.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345426 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:50:13 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345379 dcurrey : No one has mentioned it or maybe its just a problem at my house.

I have a multihandset base unit with 4 phones. These phones are placed in all over my house kitchen bedroom living room ect. I have trouble keeping the 4 units in the rooms they belong. They all seem to migrate around the house and end up in strange spots. Have a hard time finding them sometimes.

I couldn't imaging trying to run around looking for my cell phone, and if the battery dies forget it. This is why I went to voip instead of straight to cell phones. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345379 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:43:24 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345290 Maxo :

said by B

:

It's really too bad that 802.11 sucks so much power. It would be a lot simpler to just use WiFi enabled cell phones to accomplish the same thing as the femtocells, since so many people have home WiFi networks with the same coverage that the femtos are going to bring.

This way in a home there's more radiation (not necessarily a bad kind), more stuff to hook up, more vendor lock-in, more and different worry about sharing your connection, etc....

Perhaps something like dual band DECT enabled cell phones would make more sense than the femtos? I guess I'm thinking that a short range need should be met by an efficient short range protocol, not a spoofing of a long range cell protocol...

-- B

I have thought this for a long time. Have the phone simply connect to a wireless network, it automatically makes a SIP connection to the provider (AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, whomever) and viola, cell service anywhere you have access to a wireless connection. No need for femtocells.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21345290 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:25:19 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344695 RockyBB :

said by ChuckIL9

:

Maybe I've got a bad unit

You might pursue that possibility...have you called the Airave support dept to see if they can do some remote diagnostics on it? Also the thing is supposed to stand up so the lights are vertical (I don't know why), and the higher up in the house the better (again I don't know why) though the location of your network router will determine where the unit is deployed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344695 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 14:40:52 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344545 ChuckIL9 : I had planned on eliminating my VOIP lines and using the Sprint femtocel device, but the Airave has been a disappointment to me. Sprint sent it for free, and waved the monthly fees for a year, but it's functionality has been less than satisfactory. I have pretty poor reception from the Sprint cell tower in the house (zero to at most 2 bars), but for either of my two cellphones (a cheap Sanyo and a Moto Q) to switch over to Airave coverage, the phone pretty much has to be on top of the Airave. Once the signal is locked in I have full bars in the room the Airave is in, but coverage drops off significantly if I go to a different floor. If I move outside Airave coverage while on a call, the call drops. Weird things have also happened for incoming callers. On occasion they hear the phone ring, while my handset does not, then in several cases they are connected to another Sprint users phone. Maybe I've got a bad unit, but the signal weakness and general weirdness has seen my Airave deployed back in it's box and in the closet. This one definitely did not pass the Wife Acceptance Factor.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344545 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 14:14:01 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344441 nitzan :

said by RockyBB

:

They still would have to pay offnet termination costs for calls off their network.

Yes, but they'd probably be able to pass those on as IP-originated which is a fraction of what they pay on their cell-originated offnet calls currently.
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344441 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:57:00 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344340 RockyBB :

said by jay_rm

:

it's simply a plot by the cellular providers to get YOUR traffic off THEIR network and dump it back on YOU :)

Cell providers have only a few plots: 1) increase revenue per subscriber, 2) reduce churn, 3) keep operating and buildout costs under control. Assuming that the boxes work, and if the marketing guys sell it the right way, all plots will be successful. It's not a complete freebie, for them BTW. They still would have to pay offnet termination costs for calls off their network.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344340 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:38:58 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344224 jay_rm :

said by RockyBB

:

By allowing free calling offnet through the device, with reduced chance of dropouts.

You are correct Rocky - I forgot about that part.

Since you are no longer using bandwidth on your cell providers network, from a technical standpoint they really wouldn't care how much you talked. Plus, they would be getting revenue (from your femtocell 'rental') from something they no longer had to provide (cellular bandwitdh). Wow !

I retract my statement - femtocells COULD have a significant impact on VoIP and POTS.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344224 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:18:23 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344214 jay_rm :

said by nitzan

A simple VOICE GSM data stream (T-Mobile, ATT, ect) uses about 10% the bandwidth of a typical VoIP call. The GSM codec is very streamlined and robust. A CDMA stream uses more bandwidth but still not very much. The problems start when one is using high bandwidth apps on your phone. But, even with 3G services, bandwidths are normally less then a few 100K - easily supported by many home connections.

Once again, it's simply a plot by the cellular providers to get YOUR traffic off THEIR network and dump it back on YOU :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344214 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:14:17 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344200 RockyBB :

said by jay_rm

:

Why would the spread of femtocells impact VoIP if the majority of users already COULD use their cellphone in their house.

By allowing free calling offnet through the device, with reduced chance of dropouts. Folks now are faced with "unlimited" calling from their "home" phone (VOIP or POTS) or cell minutes from the cell phone. Change that dynamic to unlimited cell minutes from home through the femtocell, and no one will make calls out from the "home" phone (other than international, conf calls, other niche types of calling). That's why I said the "home" phone then becomes answer only. Once the cell providers allow port-ins, allow more than one number to map to a single cell phone (much less a call director), and provide a portal, then it's over. IMO! ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344200 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:10:46 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344181 nitzan :

said by jay_rm

:

The femtocell uses YOUR wired broadband connection to backhaul any phone registered to it.

Granted I am a bit ignorant about the technology, but something that doesn't add up in my mind is the assumption that every family has an internet connection adequate enough to transmit multiple voice streams at once. Let's face it- most "broadband" users these days are still on 768/128 packages or something similar - whatever they can get cheapest from their ISP. Even with compression I don't see that kind of connection passing along more than a couple of calls at a time with good quality. And that's not even taking into effect regular internet usage (read: youtube) by other family members.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344181 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:07:35 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344179 chpalmer :

quote:
Most people already have a usable cell signal in their house..... Femtocell technology is being pushed by the cellular providers because it's just another way to decrease the load on their network.

Of course, I'm sure they'll market it to the ignorant public in a much different way !

Thats right!

There are allot of people that dont have good enough coverage and this will help them though. My office is a prime example. Cell site rental and buildout is expensive. Why wouldnt they do this?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344179 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:07:06 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344158 morbo : eh, two things have to happen for the true beginning of the end of residential VOIP:

1) price has to be competitive and amazing to get converts.
2) provide some ability for people that don't want to use a cell phone all the time to use regular pots style phones at home. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344158 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:02:49 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344135 jay_rm :

said by RockyBB

said by pandora

:

Unlimited calling to and from home could be nice.

It might be a little confusing to call these femtocell products "cellular repeaters". That suggests they simply re-transmit the strongest local cell inside your house. What they do is take the place of a larger outdoor cell site. The femtocell uses YOUR wired broadband connection to backhaul any phone registered to it. It doesn't 'repeat' anything.

Most people already have a usable cell signal in their house. Why would the spread of femtocells impact VoIP if the majority of users already COULD use their cellphone in their house. Femtocell technology is being pushed by the cellular providers because it's just another way to decrease the load on their network.

Of course, I'm sure they'll market it to the ignorant public in a much different way !

{edit for spelling}
{edit2 - not calling YOU ignorant Rocky...}]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344135 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:58:01 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344130 nitzan :

said by pandora

:

It seems as if $25-35 a month is the high price point for unlimited calling via VOIP or alternatives such as Femtocell.

Vonage, Packet 8, and basically any VSP that's been concentrating on brand at higher prices is probably going to see some line loss out of this (although this by itself won't kill them).

Smaller providers are probably not going to be affected too much. BYOD crowd is not likely to throw away their adapters anytime soon, and like you said - even with femtocells it's hard to beat $11 a month. :)
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344130 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:56:46 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344072 pandora : You aren't limited to one handset if it is driving your home wired analog phones. That handset becomes your access point for the entire home.

Some cell phone companies will be concerned about the potential for this competing with land line business, others won't.

It seems as if $25-35 a month is the high price point for unlimited calling via VOIP or alternatives such as Femtocell.

In my case, I've got a nice price from Future-Nine and great VOIP service at a bit over $11 per month. That is tough to beat, even for Sprint.

Now, if I call Sprint retentions and complain about poor signal strength, and they offer me a free Femtocell ... that could change the game a bit.
--
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344072 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:46:53 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344044 nitzan :

said by pandora

:

It depends on how you approach it. If you want to dedicate a cell phone from a family plan to be your permanent home phone, nothing stops you.

At the same time, taking the home number with you when traveling could be a benefit for some.

Dedicating one phone to be the "home phone" kinda defeats the purpose though, no? If today you can use POTS or VoIP with one base and 3,4 or even 8 handsets - in a cell-is-the-home-phone situation you're limited to one handset.

Taking the home phone with you is a great idea in theory - but what if you travel on business and your wife or roommates stay home? one of you gets the home phone - the other doesn't.
With VoIP it's possible (and easy) to take an ATA with you and ring both locations at the same time.

I think in a way if you want home phone service - femtocells is not going to work well. If you want personal service - i.e. each member of the family has their own phone and there is no centralized "home phone" - then femtocells will work.

But who knows.. maybe the boys up at VZ have already thought of these things and solutions to them. But then again- wouldn't this compete with their land line and VoIP business? ;)
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21344044 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:41:07 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343976 RockyBB :

said by RevMortis

:

One question. How good is E911 through these devices?

I can't say from experience. But I do know that the delay in launching it nationwide (from the initial test markets of Denver, Indy and Nashville) was to ensure that the GPS/E911 system was functional. There is a control in the box that disables the calling functionality until it can get a GPS reading for E911 purposes. They included a really long string antenna in the carton with my unit, in the event that the device could not find a GPS signal without it (I didn't need the external antenna). Sprint is a company with a lot of lawyers, who need to protect the assets of the corporation, so E911 was a priority for them. As always, YMMV!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343976 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:28:09 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343932 pandora : It depends on how you approach it. If you want to dedicate a cell phone from a family plan to be your permanent home phone, nothing stops you.

At the same time, taking the home number with you when traveling could be a benefit for some.

This technology has potential to challenge traditional VOIP.

The Sprint cost for an extra line on a voice plan is $10, the cost for the device for one line per month is $15.

Would you pay $25 a month for unlimited phone service provided by a large national phone company? Some will, some won't.
--
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343932 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:22:17 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343924 RevMortis : One question. How good is E911 through these devices?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343924 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:20:59 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343868 RockyBB :

said by pandora

:

Imagine your home phone network is energized by a Bluetooth to RJ11 device which is fed by your cellphone.

That's all good, but limited to proximity to the cell phone. If your wife is out shopping, and you call her number, it would ring where her phone is, not at your home. If no cell phones are at home, then you're simply ringing to the phones, not to the "home." Those type of "on-net" calls are free, anyway, you don't need the Airave for that. You need the Airave to amplify the signal in the home and to get free minutes for talking outside Sprint's subscriber base. It would be an interesting "add-on" for a non-portable ATA-type device ... though isn't that how T-Mobile does it?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343868 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:07:50 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343819 pandora :

said by RockyBB

:

Be careful ... calling "home" is a different concept with all cell with Airave and no POTS. There is no place to plug a phone into the Airave. It's a cellular repeater, not a VOIP ATA. You would have unlimited calling to any Sprint cell number anyway ... the Airave simply amplifies the signal in the home. So you wouldn't call "home" anymore, you would call the cell number of the family member you're looking for.

Not really. Calls going or coming would be free to the cell phones. Instead you pay a flat monthly charge of about $25 and provide broadband for it to do it's VOIP-like magic.

There are devices similar to an ATA for cell phones, which allow a cell phone, usually via Bluetooth to function as an ATA for analog service in a home.

Imagine your home phone network is energized by a Bluetooth to RJ11 device which is fed by your cellphone.

At that point, you get dial tone, and traditional phone service from a cell phone. The cell phone may have unlimited in and out calling via one of these devices for a fixed monthly price.

In my opinion this isn't the death of VOIP, just another form of VOIP, one that cell phone companies will control.

An example of the type of device I'm suggesting which converts RJ11 to Bluetooth is at - »www.amazon.com/dp/B000ZHS8ZW/ref···Code=asn

See also - »www.blueraven.com/us/Item/ItemDe···No=60875
--
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343819 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:58:23 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343778 nitzan : I think it's a little too soon to predict the death of VoIP. ;)

Death of high-priced VoIP? sure. But I don't see the budget-minded crowd, techies, or feature-oriented customers disappearing anytime soon.

I seriously don't see VZW providing the same features a VoIP provider would. Hell, my cell plan doesn't even have incoming CNAM! You'd think I'm paying enough for them to include it...
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343778 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:51:12 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343735 RockyBB :

said by pandora

:

Unlimited calling to and from home could be nice.

Be careful ... calling "home" is a different concept with all cell with Airave and no POTS. There is no place to plug a phone into the Airave. It's a cellular repeater, not a VOIP ATA. You would have unlimited calling to any Sprint cell number anyway ... the Airave simply amplifies the signal in the home. So you wouldn't call "home" anymore, you would call the cell number of the family member you're looking for.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343735 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:42:59 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343707 pandora :

said by mazilo

:

And more expose to an accumulation of such microwave radiations that will perhaps cause human cells to mutate into other cells, including but not limited to cancer cells. Thousands years from now, perhaps this planet will be inhibited with mutated creatures and they will still call them a human species. Those who live in jungles that are not affected by these microwaves (absorbed by tree leaves) remain the same and will be treated as alien species. :D

Yeah, but I bet those mutants will have wicked fast phones!
--
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343707 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:37:32 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343659 pandora : I'm considering a port to Sprint of 5 cell phone accounts on a family plan. Unlimited calling to and from home could be nice. As I read it, for more than one phone you pay $20 a month, plus a $5 a month fee.

That would make it $25 a month for 5 phones with unlimited calling to and from home, with up to 3 calls allowed concurrently active.

That has potential.
--
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343659 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:29:05 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343628 mazilo :

said by B

:

This way in a home there's more radiation (not necessarily a bad kind), more stuff to hook up, more vendor lock-in, more and different worry about sharing your connection, etc....

And more expose to an accumulation of such microwave radiations that will perhaps cause human cells to mutate into other cells, including but not limited to cancer cells. Thousands years from now, perhaps this planet will be inhibited with mutated creatures and they will still call them a human species. Those who live in jungles that are not affected by these microwaves (absorbed by tree leaves) remain the same and will be treated as alien species. :D
--
Mazilo always prays for FREEBIES!
US Phone: +1-678-601-0907
UK Phone: +44-703-194-2574
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343628 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:21:57 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343613 RockyBB : I'll leave the pricing quotes up to Sprint. It was less expensive to acquire in the store than was advertised at the time. The monthly fee was as advertised.

Functionally it worked flawlessly. Usage minutes through the device did not count against my allowance and curiously did not get itemized on the invoice; I've not had the inclination to test if international calls would work and be billed. Multiple phones can use it simultaneously. Sprint allows you to designate which phones on your subscription can use it, locking out all others -- or if it's available to any nearby user.

Only a phone on the same subscription as the device gets free minutes through the device ... if a nearby neighbor picks up your Airave signal, his calls can go through the device, but he's not supposed to get free minutes. I'm not sure if the billing system is linked through the Airave partition so I suppose it's possible that the freeloader gets free minutes. Either way, you the subscriber are not liable for any costs other than the monthly fee.

Text messages and the original "Vision" internet capabilities seem to use the device; the new advanced EVDO capabilities (music, TV, etc) would not. The Nextel IDEN phones cannot use the Airave. I use a 3 year old Sanyo 8200 which came out prior to the Airave, and it works fine. Perhaps the newer phones would have an icon on the display to let you know if you're in range of the Airave. Sprint does play an audible beep when placing or answering calls to indicate that you're using the device.

E911 is supported through a GPS link.

Hands down, though, my favorite feature is the pretty blue light display on the front ... when the internet goes down the network light changes from blue to red, saving tons of analysis time figuring out why other stuff doesn't work!

What I see as the big advantage of the femtocell box is that it makes the home phone line (VOIP or POTS) unnecessary in too many cases. With clear audio and no danger of busting the cell allowance, home users will gradually find their home phone to be essentially answer only. Once the cell companies allow port-ins and support multiple numbers per phone, and provide a call control portal (and enhanced voice mail and blah blah) ... then the war is over.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343613 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:18:58 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343549 B : It's really too bad that 802.11 sucks so much power. It would be a lot simpler to just use WiFi enabled cell phones to accomplish the same thing as the femtocells, since so many people have home WiFi networks with the same coverage that the femtos are going to bring.

This way in a home there's more radiation (not necessarily a bad kind), more stuff to hook up, more vendor lock-in, more and different worry about sharing your connection, etc....

Perhaps something like dual band DECT enabled cell phones would make more sense than the femtos? I guess I'm thinking that a short range need should be met by an efficient short range protocol, not a spoofing of a long range cell protocol...

-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343549 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:07:10 EDT Re: [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343430 pandora : How do you like the Sprint device, and how much is Sprint charging for it?

I've seen it on their website, it looks interesting.
--
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343430 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:47:06 EDT [Femtocell] The Beginning of the End of Residential VOIP http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343394 RockyBB : see trade article »www.eweek.com/c/a/Mobile-and-Wir···tocells/

Verizon Wireless Ponders Femtocells
By Roy Mark
2008-10-28
The wireless carrier submits a femtocell device to the Federal Communications Commission for a possible 2009 rollout. Essentially micro cell towers for the home and office, femtocell devices boost cell phone call coverage and capacity.

Verizon Wireless plans to enter the femtocell market next year, joining Sprint Nextel and T-Mobile as U.S. carriers that hope to use the technology to boost cell phone coverage and capacity in homes and offices. A modem-size femtocell device is currently under review at the Federal Communications Commission.

Femtocell devices are micro cell towers used in homes and small businesses to improve the quality of cellular telephone calls and to also allow users to make calls over a broadband connection. Sprint Nextel began deploying its Airave femtocells, manufactured by Samsung, in 2007. T-Mobile is also using femtocell technology to enhance its wireless network coverage.

"We are looking at femtocell technology and will soon be performing user tests," a Verizon Wireless spokesperson told Unstrung. "We could well have a product on the market early next year, but we have made no public announcements about that yet."

Connected through a broadband service such as DSL and cable modems, femtocell devices typically support two to five mobile phones in a residence. ABI Research predicts 103 million femtocell access points will be in service by 2013.

My opinion: Once in the hands of the marketing powerhouse of Verizon Wireless, the misunderstood femtocell will make residential VOIP (and POTS lines) unnecessary for a vast majority of the population. By solving the problem of cell service in a home, folks will quickly realize that their cell number and personal voice mail can work for them all day long. Do not be surprised when cell providers come up with an online "portal" for call control capabilities that we are used to with our favorite VOIP providers.

I've had a Sprint Airave femtocell for almost two years and it really works. Sprint just doesn't know how (or have the inclination or cash) to market it. T-Mobile has made a publicity splash with their version.

Once the marketing guys at VZW get their hands on this, it's all over. Those predicting the death of POTS will be proven correct, taking down residential VOIP with it, IMO. The long term prospects for VOIP as we know it remain for business applications, and for niche markets like international calling.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,21343394 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:41:48 EDT