 Link LoggerPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
 ·Shaw
1 edit | Is having links to copyrighted material illegal? The Canadian owner of one of the Internet's most popular sites for downloading everything from music to porn is pre-emptively asking the Supreme Court of British Columbia to rule on whether he is violating the Copyright Act.
Gary Fung, 25, of Richmond, B.C., runs the IsoHunt.com search engine for BitTorrent files, which are commonly used to download and upload virtually every type of copyrighted material, including music, movies, computer software and e-books.
The site currently links to more than 1.5 million files online, such as the latest chart-topping CDs, video games, DVDs and even movies currently in theatres.
Isohunt.com regularly cracks the Top 200 list of the web's most popular sites, according to analysts at Alexa.com.
»technology.sympatico.msn.ca/News···ate=True
This should prove to be interesting as it will likely help define the legality/illegality of P2P (in Canada at least).
Blake
edit - lets see if I can change 'link' to 'links' in the title |
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OZOPremium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2 | Re: Is having link to copyrighted material illegal? Link has nothing to do with the right to copy protected material (a copyright). Therefore I don't think that link could be illegal. If it were illegal - any search services would not exist (they provide links to copyrighted data, not the data itself). Just my 2¢...
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Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself... |
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 whizkid3Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
kudos:6 | reply to Link Logger
If links to copyrighted material were illegal, the internet would not function. In most countries, including the USA and Canada, all original works (webpages, for example) are considered copyrighted by default, without any need for registration, copyright symbols, etc.
The suit has been filed, because Gary Fung knows he can not lose. |
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 ABPremium
join:2006-04-04
Leesburg, VA
kudos:3 | reply to Link Logger
I have links to Microsoft software on my machine, Blake. I'll bet you do, too.
Shall we go ahead and turn ourselves in? It might go easier on us that way. |
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Link LoggerPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3 Reviews:
·Shaw
| said by AB:I have links to Microsoft software on my machine, Blake. I'll bet you do, too. I hadn't thought about it that way as I would have thought a link to copyrighted material was OK, but now that you mention it, yes I do have links to Microsoft software on my machine that I paid a licensing fee for that software, should Isohunt have to do the same? When I think about this this now that you bought it up, the example of radio stations comes to mind who pay a fee for each song they play. The person hearing the song doesn't get to 'own' it, just hear it so its something similar to a link in that fashion, so perhaps maybe there is 'value' in just the link (certainly because of the number and type of links isohunt has, its able to charge a premium for advertising as isohunt in of itself has no value other then the links and I would love to hear just how much money Gary Fung is making off that site).
Now I would have thought having a link to something is fine, and somewhere further down the process the downloading of copyrighted materials becomes illegal (by definition of the law this is illegal). Now the question I guess comes in as to is isohunt aiding or abetting an illegal process (ie he becomes an accessory to the crime) and that is ultimately the question for the courts to decide, but given a large percentage of the links are to copyrighted material I suspect the courts might not find in his favor but I think this is going to be an interesting case either way as certainly it is forcing the issue.
Blake
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Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool |
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| reply to Link Logger
Re: Is having links to copyrighted material illegal? Wasn't this the original Shawn Fanning buisness model for Napster? "I don't have the copyrighted material, your honor, just lists of who does have it." |
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ABPremium
join:2006-04-04
Leesburg, VA
kudos:3 Reviews:
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to Link Logger
Re: Is having link to copyrighted material illegal? No doubt you also have links on your machine to copyrighted software you haven't paid a licensing fee for.
For example-- here's a link that I keep on my machine that links to copyrighted software, that I just pulled from my bookmarks:
»get.adobe.com/flashplayer/
There can be no doubt that Flash Player and Shockwave Player are copyrighted pieces of software. Yet I keep permanent links to them on my computer.
I'm making no sort of argument from any point of legal standing, mind you. Nor am I saying that this necessarily goes directly to the point of the story to which you linked, though it may in fact. (A story that you linked to which is hosted on a webpage of a company that would consider many of the items also there as part of their legally copyrighted domain, btw.)
I'm merely saying that we all (most of us, anyway) keep links on our machines that point to copyrighted software.
The title of your thread is "Is having links to copyrighted material illegal?" |
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Link LoggerPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3 Reviews:
·Shaw
| said by AB:No doubt you also have links on your machine to copyrighted software you haven't paid a licensing fee for. For example-- here's a link that I keep on my machine that links to copyrighted software, that I just pulled from my bookmarks: » get.adobe.com/flashplayer/There can be no doubt that Flash Player and Shockwave Player are copyrighted pieces of software. Yet I keep permanent links to them on my computer. I'm making no sort of argument from any point of legal standing, mind you. Nor am I saying that this necessarily goes directly to the point of the story to which you linked, though it may in fact. (A story that you linked to which is hosted on a webpage of a company that would consider many of the items also there as part of their legally copyrighted domain, btw.) I'm merely saying that we all (most of us, anyway) keep links on our machines that point to copyrighted software. The title of your thread is "Is having links to copyrighted material illegal?" Given that Flash is installed on my machine and as part of the install process I agreed to their terms/license, same with Adobe Reader/Virtual CloneDrive/Silverlight/Paint.net/Wireshark//Worldwide Telescope/etc/etc Like I said I didn't see a problem with having links (it certainly doesn't imply procession for example, but does indicate an intent but isn't there that old saying procession is 9/10th of the law, but who know exactly how true that is), but I think 'intent' is going to play a role here. Like I said all my software/components/etc are all either purchased license and/or agreed to licensing terms, most music/movies/etc do not allow for links to any other site then licensed distribution sites, and hence Gary's links are likely outside of any licensing agreement. Also the intent of offering all those links will certainly come into effect in determining if he is an accessory to a illegal activity.
I wonder if Gary thought about what happens if the courts (in Canada aways) rule that its OK to have those links as then I would imagine that everyone and their dog and cat is going to enter his market and outfits like Google will likely crush him right out of the game.
As for the title of the thread it is exactly as it reads, a question and not a statement, like I said I think a link is OK, but there might be other factors which could influence the court decision on this matter. I also believe that there are American legal suits currently pending against isohunt from the MPAA and maybe others, but I have no idea as to what the current status of those are ( »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IsoHunt ).
Now with Link Logger for example I post it on shareware sites, hence giving them permission to link to it on their site, but other shareware sites have it posted as well, certainly I wouldn't normally ask them to remove it from their site. Now I did see cracked versions of Link Logger listed on isohunt, so perhaps I should ask them to remove those links and I suspect/expect they would, perhaps an experiment for me to try.
Blake
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Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool |
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ABPremium
join:2006-04-04
Leesburg, VA
kudos:3 Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by Link Logger:Given that Flash is installed on my machine and as part of the install process I agreed to their terms/license, same with Adobe Reader/Virtual CloneDrive/Silverlight/Paint.net/Wireshark//Worldwide Telescope/etc/etc Like I said I didn't see a problem with having links (it certainly doesn't imply procession for example, but does indicate an intent but isn't there that old saying procession is 9/10th of the law, but who know exactly how true that is), but I think 'intent' is going to play a role here. Like I said all my software/components/etc are all either purchased license and/or agreed to licensing terms, most music/movies/etc do not allow for links to any other site then licensed distribution sites, and hence Gary's links are likely outside of any licensing agreement. Also the intent of offering all those links will certainly come into effect in determining if he is an accessory to a illegal activity. I wonder if Gary thought about what happens if the courts (in Canada aways) rule that its OK to have those links as then I would imagine that everyone and their dog and cat is going to enter his market and outfits like Google will likely crush him right out of the game. As for the title of the thread it is exactly as it reads, a question and not a statement . . . . Yeah, I know it's a question, Blake. (That little squiggly thing at the end was a dead giveaway.) 
You're asking about hosting links on a website, and not speaking of simple personal possession in a browser's bookmarks or favorites folder.
The thread title doesn't seem to make that distinction.
At any rate-- There are always people who want to blow smoke up our asses and pretend they're unaware of any wrongdoing on their part, whether that be strictly legally speaking or from a moral standpoint, and these people often walk a fine line with, or use as cover, any law which may technically be open for interpretation or is not easily or avidly enforced.
And sometimes the law itself is 'wrong', and shouldn't be adhered to, enforced, or paid any attention to.
I'm not going to pontificate on which side of the fence this particular petition to the court or the court's ultimate ruling belongs on, but I do hope Mr. Fung is not one of those who would pretend there's no mud clinging to his shoes as he walks through the swamp.
He knows full well what he's doing.
Whether or not he's well within legal and moral boundaries in hosting these links, I'm not prepared to say. Guess that's part of the reason we have these courts. |
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Link LoggerPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3 Reviews:
·Shaw
| said by AB:You're asking about hosting links on a website, and not speaking of simple personal possession in a browser's bookmarks or favorites folder. The thread title doesn't seem to make that distinction. At any rate-- There are always people who want to blow smoke up our asses and pretend they're unaware of any wrongdoing on their part, whether that be strictly legally speaking or from a moral standpoint, and these people often walk a fine line with, or use as cover, any law which may technically be open for interpretation or is not easily or avidly enforced. And sometimes the law itself is 'wrong', and shouldn't be adhered to, enforced, or paid any attention to. I'm not going to pontificate on which side of the fence this particular petition to the court or the court's ultimate ruling belongs on, but I do hope Mr. Fung is not one of those who would pretend there's no mud clinging to his shoes as he walks through the swamp. He knows full well what he's doing. Whether or not he's well within legal and moral boundaries in hosting these links, I'm not prepared to say. Guess that's part of the reason we have these courts. One of the things I have been looking for is a sample of an online copyright for a movie so I can see if it states within the copyright any limitations as to advertising or distribution of the movie. Now this gets a little weird to say the least as say perhaps I post in twitter (I don't use twitter but for example), that I'm going to see the movie X at theater Y, is that not posting a 'link' to where you can 'see/get' the movie and as such would that be illegal, certainly the movie makers want your friends to know your going to this movie, but that also implies that I'm seeing the movie in the fashion they intended (ie I'm paying for a ticket to see the movie, now if my link included how to sneak into the theater then perhaps that would be different), so no doubt intent is going to play a factor in this as the idea behind isohunt really is to get a 'free' copy which is definitely a copyright violation for most movies on that site?
Now the important thing as you mentioned is the onus is on isohunt to have obtained whatever permissions or evidence would be required to put up the link, you can't claim ignorance here as that is not a viable defense (you took the action, therefore you assume the responsibility of any failure to research or otherwise seek provisions for your action). Now certainly the idea that they will take down a link is one thing, but they could be responsible for damages while it is up and for the cost of having someone monitor the site for copyright infringing links (you are inflecting a cost upon a company for your actions, and therefore could be consider liable for those costs, the courts could enforce a seek permission first before posting the link ruling which would basically drive isohunt out of business as I doubt they could cover that cost for all the links they have).
It will be very interesting to see how this goes (if the courts even agree to hear the case), what arguments will be taken and what the final ruling will be and then how much sway that will have outside of Canada (if any and if he loses if he moves his servers again). I'm sure Google and the other search engines will be quietly standing at the back of the court making notes like crazy.
The question is basically what other people think of this action, what the arguments will be and what the final outcome will be. I'll go out on a limb here and predict that he will lose his case and isohunt will either close or move again, but it is a better idea for him to test this case in Canada then the US as the punitive costs if there are any are likely to be smaller in Canada then in the US.
said by AB:sometimes the law itself is 'wrong', and shouldn't be adhered to, enforced, or paid any attention to True, but wouldn't it just be better to change that law? In Canada for whatever stupid reason the Supreme Court has taken it upon itself to write/change some laws, which I always thought was wrong as their job is to enforce and maintain the laws created by government, but somehow that has been perverted on occasion, they can offer their interpretation as feedback to the government so they can tune the law, etc but as for defining or creating it that is not their role.
Blake
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Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool |
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 Grail KnightWho Dares WinsPremium
join:2003-05-31
Valhalla
kudos:5
·Time Warner Cable
4 edits | reply to AB
quote:
sometimes the law itself is 'wrong', and shouldn't be adhered to, enforced, or paid any attention to.
So go for getting it changed or dropped from the books. Easier said then done which IMO why some of those laws still exist.
For your reading leisure.
Dumb Laws.com
Just looking at a few of those laws at that site shows I have broken a few myself as well as others but the cops are not going to enforce the law unless they can add it onto an existing charge to pad it IMO.
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As to the topic of which I do not care if a person is paying or not paying for software as that is for another thread.
quote:
Gary Fung; "We filed the court documents because we were threatened by CRIA. Essentially they're saying that all we do is infringe on their clients' copyrights," he said.
If the links point to products that can not normally be obtained without purchasing them is that not contributing to infringement?
Example I. Customer pays for software then receives link to download the file. The file is not normally linked until it is paid for. Site A, B, or C makes the link(s) available to download files not normally offered without paying first.
Example II. Customer had the option to pay for multiple downloads of his/her purchased material but chose not to now he or she needs to redownload so instead of going through the company that sold it uses site A, B, or C to obtain the link(s) to get the product again.
Edit* |
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 amysheehanPremium,VIP,MVM
join:1999-12-21
Huntington Beach, CA
kudos:9
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to Link Logger
From the US Copyright office: Visit »www.copyright.gov/
U.S. Copyright laws. Short quotes from copyrighted articles and web sites may be used in replies, but do not post entire copyrighted articles into replies. It is better to state your opinion in your own words. Any copyrighted material posted MUST link to the original source online.
»www.loc.gov/copyright/faq.html#q47
How much of someone else's work can I use without getting permission?
»www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-f···#howmuch
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Proud Member of ASAP
DSLR Phishtracker |
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| reply to AB
Re: Is having link to copyrighted material illegal? said by AB:I'm not going to pontificate on which side of the fence this particular petition to the court or the court's ultimate ruling belongs on, but I do hope Mr. Fung is not one of those who would pretend there's no mud clinging to his shoes as he walks through the swamp. He knows full well what he's doing. Whether or not he's well within legal and moral boundaries in hosting these links, I'm not prepared to say. Guess that's part of the reason we have these courts. Good grief, AB! You didn't display much reservation in pontification over the dad-gum post title! 
Clearly, the intent wasn't targeting mere links to "copyrighted" but instead illegally (not yet, but I too think the court will rule so .. certainly, I believe it should rule so) facilitating access to either illegally obtainable or illegally altered, copyrighted, material.
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It's a sticky proposition. |
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| Additionally, this is the same pig wearing a different dress. Sites which provide links to child pornography, for instance, while claiming "innocents" because they don't actually contain/host same. |
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jsouthJsouth
join:2000-12-12
Wichita, KS | Actually your wrong there. Child porn is illegal material and copyrighted material is not unless it's fakes.
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Bush bashing is old. How about more solutions instead? |
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 funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5
1 edit | reply to Link Logger
said by Link Logger:One of the things I have been looking for is a sample of an online copyright for a movie so I can see if it states within the copyright any limitations as to advertising or distribution of the movie. Most studios overstate their rights. There is no penalty for doing so.
If Canada is like most western nations, then don't expect any clear answers in the law. Advertising is copyrighted and therefore distribution of their advertising is a exclusive right. The titles of their works and the names of their theaters are probably further covered by trademark laws, which would allow you to tell your friends about a movie.
However, as excesses go, companies are now using "copyright" to limit speech in the sale of physical property, with conflicted results -- such as the Louis Vuitton case (won) in France »www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202422673041 (The court ruled that eBay was responsible for the "illicit sale" of [non-counterfeit] perfumes from the LVMH empire, which can be sold only through the brands' "selective distribution networks." )-- or this case (lost) in the USA »www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/07/ti···nsive-tr (Ruling that Tiffany cannot expand copyright's protections to prevent 3rd-party sales).
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
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ABPremium
join:2006-04-04
Leesburg, VA
kudos:3 Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to booger
said by booger:said by AB:I'm not going to pontificate on which side of the fence this particular petition to the court or the court's ultimate ruling belongs on . . . Good grief, AB! You didn't display much reservation in pontification over the dad-gum post title! It seemed initially to be suggesting that I, you, and a whole lot of others might be violating some law merely by keeping bookmarks on our computers.
That's different from hosting links on a website.
I don't always lump separate and different actions into the same category for assessment. |
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| said by AB:That's different from hosting links on a website. Recently, there was discussion in another thread here around EULA. Well intentioned people could/can drift into "gray areas" here.
The deciding to never again seek/acquire/use "cracked" versions of copyrighted software .. deciding never again to rob/steal the just reward/profit from those who've worked hard in it's creation. That's easy.
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It's a sticky proposition. |
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 MchartFirst There.
join:2004-01-21
Gurnee, IL | reply to Link Logger
»www.hulu.com/watch/1522/master-a···he-world
There you go. |
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Link LoggerPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3 Reviews:
·Shaw
| Denied, one of few downsides of being Canadian  I really wanted to see the Summer Olympics via Silverlight on MSNBC, but same issue with that.
Sorry, currently our video library can only be streamed from within the United States
Hulu is committed to making its content available worldwide. To do so, we must work through a number of legal and business issues, including obtaining international streaming rights. Know that we are working to make this happen and will continue to do so. Given the international background of the Hulu team, we have both a professional and personal interest in bringing Hulu to a global audience.
If you'd like, please leave us your email address and the region in which you live, and we will email you when our videos are available in your area.
You picked a pretty good flick for an example as I thought it was good enough to purchase.
Blake
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Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool |
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