Topic 'Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??' in forum ''

Topic 'Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??' in forum '' - dslreports.com http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21416099 en Fri, 10 Feb 2012 06:19:11 EDT Fri, 10 Feb 2012 06:19:11 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21421622 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21421622 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:59:10 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21421614 said by birdfeedr:

Hand the police a video tape of your tenants hosting sex with children? Sounds like you created a video of kiddie-porn. And gave the evidence to police. Not too smart, in my view.
There are cases where well-intentioned people bought dope, called the police to give it to them, and report who the seller was. The caller went to jail for buying and possessing dope.

The last thing I would do is visit kid porn sites so I could video tape them as evidence. Not unless I was part of a watchdog group recognized by the police.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21421614 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:57:17 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21421566 said by utahluge:

said by Rob:

If you own a home, and you lease it out, and multiple people inform you that the people leasing your home are using it host sex with children, you wouldn't do anything about it?

Uhhh, ever heard of a video camera? You would get a lot further with handing over a video tape to the police. At the very least it would keep you out of jail.
Hand the police a video tape of your tenants hosting sex with children? Sounds like you created a video of kiddie-porn. And gave the evidence to police.

Not too smart, in my view.

C'mon people, surely you're not all as dense you seem to be. There's lots of ways to get authorities involved without getting caught in the middle. Hell, call your local TV station. They'd love stories on "kiddie porn right under your noses. Film at 11."

Call the local equivalent of DCYF. There's plenty of ways to allege something without coming right out and saying it. Talk blonde with big hair and a Cranston accent.

Ok, that last part is a Rhode Island euphemism. Ya gotta be there. :D ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21421566 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:46:01 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21420549 said by emptywig:

said by MyDogHsFleas:

This is actually false. Tenants have considerable rights, depending on the state/city they live in. In many cases you cannot evict tenants because you have "investigated" and you believe they are doing something illegal, especially if they have a lease. In many cases you can't even evict them if they are convicted of a crime. To do so invites a large lawsuit.

The lease says person won't engage in illegal activity on the property (network). They do. They're gone. If they want to argue, well then here are the police to arrest them for the illegal activity.

The child-porn hosts can sue when they get out of prison.

wig
Who are you to say the activity was illegal? Are you the police? No, I did not think so.
I am a tenant in a fairly large apartment complex and it is usually quiet and peaceful.
However, a year or two back a female moved in and she was obviously dealing drugs from her apartment or she was a crack whore. Not sure but anyhow, about a week or two after she moved in the traffic in and out of the place picked up highly. We went from maybe four cars per hour to 20 cars per hour. The extra 16 cars were all traffic for her apartment. They were white and black males mostly and would stay for under 5 minutes while some would stay for longer and eventually a few would stay for days.
It was then that I said something as the guys coming over were badly dressed and looked like they had been up for days.
So the manager made note of my complaint and watched the traffic and verified that I was correct. She could not do anything however but the police were called and they started tracking the vehicles that came and went. This took about two months and they finally busted someone going in or out of her apartment and that bust activated the clause like yours that says you cannot use the apartment for illegal activities. Once that took place then the complex sent her a certified letter stating she had 30 days to vacate. She did but I've seen many that did not and the sheriff had to come in and throw them out.
So if you are really a landlord then you are doing illegal actions but I suspect you are not a landlord.
You sound like the guy down here that says he will throw you out if you put up a satellite dish on his property even though it is your area. The federal government gives you the right as a tenant to put up a dish so long as it is an exclusive use area of your rented apartment. So if you have say a balcony exclusive to you that faces south then you can put a dish on it regardless of what the lease papers say. It's called the OTARD law.
Sorry to be off topic here but this guy needs to learn in my book.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21420549 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:56:47 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21420483 said by nitzan:

Absolutely disagree. Carriers should not be responsible for the actions of their customers if they in good faith did not notice the abuse.
Well what is abuse? What do you do when there is activity that is illegal in your jurisdiction coming from Russia or Romania? Disconnect Russia or Romania's internet connection?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21420483 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:17:14 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21420451 said by hottboiinnc:

And you would want this to happen to your kids: »www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dl···07160322
And mainstream media never ever questions the actions of the police. I guess even MWW/ChildS won't make the media question the police.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21420451 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:59:25 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21420442 said by jhboricua:

If the evidence is there, why would the authorities ignore it?
They don't have to care unless the mass media PR will fire the police chief. Unless there an ambulance is being requested the chances of them showing up is related to how many hours since the last donut break.

NYC, 20 minutes to show upto a high hobo who broke through a front window of a store and was bleeding, ambulance crew couldn't do anything because of weapons check guidelines.

NYC, 45 minutes to show up to 2 thugs against a taxi driver who wouldn't pay. Taxi driver got fucked up and bleeding eventually, but not robbed. Taxi driver drove away injured before cops showed up (30 mins from starting point).

NYC, 25 minutes, neighbor having extended family party turned ugly after too much tequila.

NYC, 10 minutes, ex-employee takes a Uzi to a Radioshack and then goes shooting at rush hour lines of people waiting for buses.

Othercases, 911 wants a 20 minute phone interview while there is a gangfight going on before they will send someone, yes, they said they will only send someone after I give them a testimony. This wasn't NYC but a suburb.

Time for the cops to held legally responsible for not showing up, or time for Texas self defense rights/Texas gun laws nationally. You don't mess with random people since you know you will get shot by grandma.

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws and cops that never show up will have them.

Unless its MWW/ChildS or a corpse, they will take their sweet time in showing up. Ambulances and fire dept are 10x faster.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21420442 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:51:17 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21420419 said by Rob:

I doubt it very much. I bet you'd be the first one there, with a shotgun, a baseball bat, and ready to kick some ass.
I should come tell you that my neighbors who I hate have a child brothel in their house. I'll love to see the carnage you do and the cops storming the house while your killing the occupants of that house. :-D perfect way to get rid of the neighbors, and to give a sob story about a lone rampaging psychopath attacking the neighborhood to the local TV newsvans

You responsibility is to tell the cops, and thats it. If the cops don't want to do anything about it. Tough luck. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_···immunity

Even if the cops take 3 hours to show up to a group of serial killers executing your entire extended family during thanksgiving, there is nothing you can do (but since this is your residence, you can take a shotgun and deal with it yourself »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine this doesn't apply to property you rent out, or backbone/consumer ISPs).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21420419 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:40:08 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21420402 said by Skippy25:

During that investigation the ISP's should be looked at as well to see if they were turning a blind eye to it. Not that I believe ISP's should be anything more than a dumbpipe, but if they are fully aware that they are being utilized for illegal activities, then they SHOULD be required to take the proper steps to aide authorities or brought to justice for not doing so.
Would the city water company be held responsible for providing city water to a chemical manufacturer that does environmental pollution into their backlot if some hippies told the city water company that the chemical manufacturer is using the water for illegal purposes?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21420402 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:31:25 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21420394 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21420394 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:27:21 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21420381 said by emptywig:

The lease says person won't engage in illegal activity on the property (network). They do. They're gone. If they want to argue, well then here are the police to arrest them for the illegal activity.
But the police aren't here. Only a court can make the declaration the illegal activity was done for the purpose of the lease, not you. McColo has excellent grounds to sue if they are innocent (probably not).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21420381 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:19:45 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21420377 said by RadioDoc:

You're damned right they looked the other way. People have been reporting this stuff directly to (at least) Hurricane Electric for quite awhile. They certainly knew of any criminal activity and their failure to address it until it was blown up in a major media outlet makes them culpable, especially since HE is not an "ISP" in the retail sense the law anticipates.
Its not a backbone ISP's right to regulate content. If we had backbones disconnecting ISPs on a daily basis for tiny disputes, there would be no internet. What if my cousin ripped me off, can I call Verizon and tell them to shut off landline service to my cousin because I say he defrauded me?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21420377 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:16:51 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21419707 said by emptywig:

The idea that you MUST wait for law enforcement is ridiculous.

If I am a landlord and someone notifies me(or I become aware in whatever manner) that one of my tenants is engaging in illegal activity on my property, then I am ABSOLUTELY obligated to investigate such activity and I am well within my rights to throw the f**k out anyone whom I find to be engaged in such. If you tried that in New York, not only will a judge restore possession of the premises back to the tenant, but you as the landlord, would then be accountable for treble damages to the tenant for any losses he/she may incur as a result of an eviction that was done without a court order.

For what its worth, it takes anywhere from 3-6 months to evict someone in New York -- with the shorter cases involving tenants that have already vacated the premises (in which case the landlord still needs to receive the eviction order before he can make the property available for renting to a new tenant).

With that being said, I know a few people that act as landlords of their property.. Its very hard to get good tenants, and if you end up stuck with a real scumbag in your property, you could end up losing quite a bit of money.. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21419707 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:07:32 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21419064 --
"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21419064 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 20:07:27 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418959 said by Matt:

said by KrK:

said by SixSpeed:

The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing.

This is where I think the problem lies. I think they ignored evidence/proof of wrongdoing right up until public scrutiny and publicity meant they had to act.

I completely agree. Unfortunately this happens all too often.
well if it didnt happen then every local TV station wouldnt need their "I-Team". just sad that it takes the threat of the media beaming it nationwide via satellite to get action.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418959 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 19:50:18 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418929 said by S_engineer:

Idealistically, your aspirations for this country are commendable. Realistically....well...*sigh*
That could be true. But, historically, a big-bang approach to shocking a "palsied" public (the founders' terminology) into stoic, rugged individualists balancing their self-interest with a "common good" hasn't been very realistic either. When a republic reaches the point (I believe) ours has, it's usually ripe for a demagogic populist.

Mark ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418929 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 19:45:24 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418745 said by S_engineer:

and some people want any excuse to diminish the 2nd ammendment right, or at least their skewed interpretation of it. So if you're a landlord throwing people out on the street because of a false allegation, or an allegation that did not go through the proper channels, be prepared for a full contingent of lawyers to be talking about your case. And when your getting thrown out of your house because of a bogus judgement, what will you be able to do????
Nothing, because you've gotten rid of your 2nd ammendment right.
And soon after, there goes the first ammendment rights followed by the other 8 (for starters).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418745 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 19:11:28 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418696 said by SilverSurfer1:

said by dynodb:

... there is an argument to be made that they should be held accountable if they knowingly allow it to happen- essentially they'd be acting as a co-conspirator.

Sure, an argument can be made. I can make an argument about monkeys flying out of my butt. Doesn't make it viable OR a law, however. Argument isn't law. What law was broken BTW? What is the cause of action here besides an allegation of co-conspiracy?
You're suggesting that the host wasn't breaking the law??? It's been pretty well established that they were.

The question is, did the ISP know, should they have reasonably known, and should they be able to turn a blind eye to it?

An analogy- you rent a house to someone dealing drugs out of it. If you had no knowledge or reason to know they were doing so, you committed no crime. If on the other hand you continued to rent the house to the drug dealers knowing they rented the house for the purpose of dealing drugs, you could be prosecuted as a co-conspirator benefitting from a criminal enterprise.

Again- it would be unreasonable to expect an ISP to police their customers for any and all possible infractions, but for a continuting operation as large as this one has to question whether they knowingly allowed this to go on in in the name of profit.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418696 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 19:03:08 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418491 said by dynodb:

... there is an argument to be made that they should be held accountable if they knowingly allow it to happen- essentially they'd be acting as a co-conspirator.
Sure, an argument can be made. I can make an argument about monkeys flying out of my butt. Doesn't make it viable OR a law, however. Argument isn't law. What law was broken BTW? What is the cause of action here besides an allegation of co-conspiracy? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418491 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:23:56 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418467 Civic duty is an obligation, but it should not be mandated. This usually happens when people become adults. I believe Maslow was correct with his hierarchy of needs, but unfortunately Maslow isn't being properly taught in the classroom. Furthermore, what happens when you reach the top (this is the point when your giving back) and the cushion that provided your kindness gets wiped out?
And just how do you teach obligations to the Jerry Springer/Maury Povich generation ?
Idealistically, your aspirations for this country are commendable. Realistically....well...*sigh*

I'll continue to do my part
--
"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418467 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:18:39 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418420 said by ThrowDemsOut:

The size of the operation involved says that these 2 companies looked the other way while all these illegal operations were going on. If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed.
Absolutely disagree. Carriers should not be responsible for the actions of their customers if they in good faith did not notice the abuse.

If they were notified of abuse and didn't act on it, that's another story and they should be investigated. However ISPs (and other forms of carriers) have no way to control what their users do - and they shouldn't anyway!
--
Nitzan Kon, CEO
Future Nine Corporation]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418420 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:09:39 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418270 said by SixSpeed:

...nor launch my own investigation for publicity which is what this was.
Bingo - we have a winner !
--
3500/512 5.7 GHz Motorola Canopy Wireless; FoxValley.net
'It looks just like a Telefunken U47 !']]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418270 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:40:19 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418222 said by hottboiinnc:

but that does not mean E-Mail.
I agree. But, I didn't say email. What I said is, if the EFF is going to sue telcos (when the law specifically grants telcos immunity when participating with the executive branch), why wouldn't they sue spammers when we already have a Supreme Court ruling from 1970 which *screams* applicability to the electronic age?

It would certainly have much more practical and tangible effect than nebulous damages of my email being *lawfully* snooped.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418222 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:29:39 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418211 said by S_engineer:

The question seems to me is in a era where we want everything right now, are we as tough as they were? If we're not, we're in trouble!
It sounds like you might be advocating a big-bang approach. The system will eventually melt down, and that's when people will be confronted with reality, forced into a crash-course in civic virtue (making choices based upon the "common good" rather than private interest).

That's one way. Some progressives argue that there are ways to re-instill a form of civic republicanism in the populace. From neighborhood watch groups that are empowered to do more than merely hide behind the curtain as they call 911, to "workplace democracy."

The latter is interesting to me because the Founders believed in civic republicanism. An ideology which was based upon ever-expanding frontiers. Where every citizen had the (compelled) duty to participate in government for the common good, and their participation was backed by the independence to retreat to his lands and be self-sufficient, needing no government.

By the standards of civic republicanism we've become the equivalent of share croppers. Working a 9-5 job with no ownership interest. No frontiers that we can retreat to.

The idea of workplace democracy would be to give individuals greater ownership and responsibility in their otherwise "at will" jobs. Intrusive upon business. But, more cooperative than the antagonistic relationship of labor unions versus "get what you can" management.

The idea being, there may be ways to reinstill elements behind civic virtue (individual emphasis on common good as a means to satisfy their own self-interest) without going all the way to an abrupt meltdown with a society that is "palsied" (from the founders viewpoint).

Civic republicanism is actually an interesting mix (or contradiction) of socialism and libertarianism. An interesting play between the liberties of the individual being foremost, but an emphasis upon the individual's dependence upon a virtuous government to recognize and protect those liberties. And, closing the circle, the individual's duty to ensure a virtuous government; and a government beind defined as one which compels individuals to participate and be virtuous.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418211 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:25:56 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418142 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21418142 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:14:42 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417719 said by amigo_boy:

said by S_engineer:

the obligations that MUST be met just to maintain necessities. This becomes an induced apathy

The question is how do we get back to that. Or, do we want to? Whatever we do will be problematic.

Mark
Getting back what we would lost would mean all the cards would have to be laid out. No circumventing by people with their own greed or agendas. Complicating this mess are the globalization factors that continue to erode our manufacturing base and our sovereignty.
I think about how my parents went through years of the great depression. They had the tenacity to tough it out. The question seems to me is in a era where we want everything right now, are we as tough as they were?

If we're not, we're in trouble!
--
"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417719 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:02:21 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417526 said by moonpuppy:

The second a crowd turns from peaceful protests to rioting the tide of public opinion turns away from them.
I don't disagree with that, as far as it goes. It's the old adage that the definition of a terrorist or patriot depends on who won (and, by extension, how popular the rebellion was). Just a few years after the American Revolution some whiskey makers felt put upon by taxation. Using the same rhetoric of the founders just a decade earlier they rebelled in what came to be called Shay's Rebellion.

The public was horrified. It was the leading cause for calls to abandon the relatively libertarian Articles of Confederation for the Federal Constitution. Backers of the AoC defended (or at least poo-pooed) Shay and his men. But, their side lost. We ended up with a relatively colossal government from the *very* same people who used Shay's arguments against the British.

OTOH, if nobody ever tests popularity (or even encouraged to discuss it, and consider their right to test it) you end up with a populace who is largely apathetic, disengaged, content.

If we applied the same mindset which pervades our society today (you have to play by the rules) we wouldn't have had the original Revolution. However, that doesn't mean I want to see anarchy, or every nutjob blowing up federal buildings. Just saying there's a certain level of passion and critical thought that we've lost. (And, I see expressed in countries we tend to look down upon.).

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417526 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:28:44 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417466 said by S_engineer:

the obligations that MUST be met just to maintain necessities. This becomes an induced apathy
I agree to some extent. But, I'm not sure how many people merely don't have time as opposed to being caught up in making the payments for their new all-wheel-drive, armor-laden SUV (purchased every 2 years). Or, their time-share condos. Or, the latest Wii game. Or, downloading all the "free" music they can find on the net.

Sometimes I think apathy translates more into contentedness. I think most people are like the hoard shown in the movie The Matrix. Plugged in, all their bodily functions performed for them, and slowly slipping into uselessness as a consumer.

They may occasionally express an opinion about current affairs, stopped in mid-sentence with "oooh, is that the new Blackberry? (salivation)"

said by S_engineer:

It is peoples duty to participate, but it's also their duty to imform themselves about legislation.

That's the rub, isn't it? How does something carry the weight of a duty if it's not enforced? We've lost a great deal in this regard. The jury was intended to be a fourth branch of government. Where individuals could essentially veto a law (nullification). Today, most good citizens would be as horrified by that idea as they would be by violent protests (or even horn-blowing labor strikers in the middle of an airport). They'd see it as "anarchy."

The same thing with the militia. It was intended to give the people the ability, working within a framework of government (a state militia), the power to *choose* to oppose government. It's no surprise that the militia's disappearance began in the 1880s through 1930s, as there were instances where the militia was called out to put down a labor strike, and instead defended the strikers.

Both of those institutions were originally compelled. (The jury still is, but is typically instructed that it only has the power to judge the facts of the case, not the law itself.).

The question is how do we get back to that. Or, do we want to? Whatever we do will be problematic. I at least feel a sense of wishing we were a little more like Latin American countries when I see students and the police squaring off for their annual violent protest (an eerie sense of the casualness of a re-enactment, but with real bullets). Or, 20 protestors in the airport raising heck (legally, as a recognized and encouraged act). Something about the passion at least. And the respect for passion as a part of civil life.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417466 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:18:56 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417422 said by ThrowDemsOut:

The size of the operation involved says that these 2 companies looked the other way while all these illegal operations were going on. If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed.
*punches wall, is republican, is 300 pounds*]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417422 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:07:55 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417418 said by amigo_boy:

But, your contention is that, if commoners were less "uppity" (stayed home, engaged in calm discourse), things would be better. That's largely how dictatorships arose in the 70s - 80s (with US assistance, I might add).

Your argument could have (and was) applied to the US founders too.

Mark
Not my contention at all.

The fact is the more violent a crowd becomes, the easier it is for police and the military to justify their actions whether it be tear gas, attack dogs, water cannons or bullets (rubber and real.)

The second a crowd turns from peaceful protests to rioting the tide of public opinion turns away from them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417418 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:07:33 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417365
This is not about censorship or Second Amendment rights. Hosting services are not real estate leases and as service contracts generally have provisions which allow the provider to cut off services in light of blatant illegal activity. The servers at McColo were unambiguously hosting illegal activity and the upstreams knew it. Pretty much a closed case.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417365 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:57:19 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417364 said by KrK:

said by SixSpeed:

The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing.

This is where I think the problem lies. I think they ignored evidence/proof of wrongdoing right up until public scrutiny and publicity meant they had to act.
I completely agree. Unfortunately this happens all too often.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417364 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:57:15 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417342 said by SixSpeed:

The providers did the right thing, and pulled the service once they were shown proof of wrongdoing.
This is where I think the problem lies. I think they ignored evidence/proof of wrongdoing right up until public scrutiny and publicity meant they had to act.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417342 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:53:55 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417332 said by ThrowDemsOut:

If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed.There's no need to hold them responsible for the actions of their users--- just hold them responsible for their own actions (or lack thereof.)

The question really should be have they been informed and/or aware of the sites/nets/spam/operations.

I seriously doubt that they have received no complaints from victims, law enforcement, other ISP's, security and internet watchdog organizations, etc etc

So in all likely hood they were aware. In which case, you have to wonder if they aren't in some way complicit or liable in an enabling or accomplice role. I think some very hard questions should be being asked of these companies--- perhaps by the FBI, don't you think?

If they truly knew nothing, then again that begs the question of how they could possibly not know--- are they seriously incompetent at managing their network?

My guess is this was about the money. In which case, they should (rightly so) be in some deep trouble.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417332 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:52:29 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417305
In this case if the ISP's were aware of it then they should not have changed anything and gotten the proper authorities involved to investigate and collect evidence so the owners can be convicted. Otherwise they are simply going to go find another host and the process starts all over.

During that investigation the ISP's should be looked at as well to see if they were turning a blind eye to it. Not that I believe ISP's should be anything more than a dumbpipe, but if they are fully aware that they are being utilized for illegal activities, then they SHOULD be required to take the proper steps to aide authorities or brought to justice for not doing so.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417305 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:47:05 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417297 The reason why I ask because I'm not sure people without kids understand the obligations that MUST be met just to maintain necessities. This becomes an induced apathy because you don't have time to monitor the representative you've elected in your particular corner of the earth. I think this is the case with most working adults. It is peoples duty to participate, but it's also their duty to imform themselves about legislation. And what good is legislation if you're going to bypass it with a lynch mob mentality.
In addition, forcing an electorate would only fuel marketing to the ignorant.
--
"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417297 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:45:17 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417253 said by dynodb:

As a small government conservative, the answer is simple- it's not that we abhor government interference everywhere, but rather (in principle, if not always in practice) where it's unnecessary or counterproductive- the government (particularly the federal government) should not have their fingers in every pie.
I think that's a very fair and accurate description which even liberals would agree with. The problem is in the definition of "counterproductive." It almost always boils down to the base human condition of "who's ox is being gored."

It's just that liberals don't try to dress it up in fancy terms about "free markets" and "being principled." :)

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417253 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:36:48 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417219 said by SilverSurfer1:

said by ThrowDemsOut:

If this isn't a reason to hold carriers responsible for the actions of their customers, I don't know what is. The law holding ISPs free from responsibility needs to be changed.

Whatever happened to allegedly small government conservatives who abhor government interference in every little thing? I guess that only applies when it comes to their portfolios and Wall Street. Based on the junk you post here I am very sure that if you had stock in either company, you'd be singing an entirely different tune...one of deregulation instead of accountability.
As a small government conservative, the answer is simple- it's not that we abhor government interference everywhere, but rather (in principle, if not always in practice) where it's unnecessary or counterproductive- the government (particularly the federal government) should not have their fingers in every pie.

Along with that is the belief that the government should be strong and effective in areas where it has an undeniably legitimate role- in this case law enforcement.

Here the ISP wasn't the one engaging in illegal activity, it was the the host. While they shouldn't be held responsible for every bit of illegal activity they weren't directly involved in, there is an argument to be made that they should be held accountable if they knowingly allow it to happen- essentially they'd be acting as a co-conspirator.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417219 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:31:49 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417192 Same premise, the ends justifying the means.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417192 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:27:23 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417190 said by mlundin:

I've seen it done first hand. Lawyer makes proper filings for an eviction, people tossed out by cops in about a week (during which they were in jail for armed robbery). Didn't appear too difficult aside from getting a lawyer.
I don't know what state you live in, but that's totally false. First you file for eviction, then wait a while, go to court, the judge decides, gives them a max of 10 days to comply, then you can get the police to remove them. You don't need a lawyer to do this, anyone can (I have before) and even then you must have a good reason to tell the judge. In my case, it was lack of payment for the home, but a reason like "I think they are doing something illegal" would just be another court case and more time until the next trial to present your evidence before evicting them on top of another 10 days.

So I call BS on that.
--
Fight NebuAD and the like:
Click Here to pollute their data]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417190 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:27:11 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417176 said by S_engineer:

But you can't keep looking at what the "Joneses" across the borders have, because behind close doors, they have plenty of their own grief!
I agree they have their own grief. But, that shouldn't mean we can't consider what's possibly better.

Many of our problems seem to be attributable to apathy, or contentedness, or how we've written into law how every little thing should work (instead of encouraging the use of common sense, however imperfect that is in daily operation).

For example, I think there's something to be said for forcing all eligible adults to vote (done in some Latin American countries) as a way to keep the population engaged and reminded of their *duty* to participate, rather than expect someone else to fix problems. It has its downside too. (I'm not sure I'd want people voting who don't want to vote.) But, it's at least a step toward addressing a problem which I don't see us even trying to.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417176 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:24:51 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417164 said by Rob:

If you own a home, and you lease it out, and multiple people inform you that the people leasing your home are using it host sex with children, you wouldn't do anything about it?

Your response would be "landlords don't have the duty to police the way tenants use the home" ?

I doubt it very much. I bet you'd be the first one there, with a shotgun, a baseball bat, and ready to kick some ass.Uhhh, ever heard of a video camera? You would get a lot further with handing over a video tape to the police. At the very least it would keep you out of jail.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417164 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:22:16 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417125 said by Jodokast96:

Ah, them not having the right to send it is not the same as you having the right to not have it sent.
Did you read what I wrote? You have the right to file Form 1500, which can lead to law enforcement action if the sender continues to mail you.

At a bare minimum you could sue the sender in your jurisdiction's Small Claims court, probably receiving a default judgment (because the offender wouldn't travel to defend themselves against what is indefensible.). After you have a few of those judgments, sell them to collection agencies for 50 cents on the dollar.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417125 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:16:46 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417122 --
"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417122 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:16:20 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417106 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417106 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:12:52 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417073 said by moonpuppy:

Those demonstrations do NOTHING but give the governments the excuse to crack down and beat the crap out of protesters and rarely help the situation.
But, your contention is that, if commoners were less "uppity" (stayed home, engaged in calm discourse), things would be better. That's largely how dictatorships arose in the 70s - 80s (with US assistance, I might add).

Your argument could have (and was) applied to the US founders too.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417073 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:07:03 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417051 said by S_engineer:

if you've traveled as I have, you know it's still the best game in town!
Better in some ways. Not in others. This shouldn't have to boil down to "love it, or leave it." There should be room to discuss the pros and cons of how our country has matured. Maturing is not always good. If you're older, I'm sure you can think of a few examples of what I mean.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417051 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:03:09 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417038 said by S_engineer:

Unfortunately, theres not too many of those regions left.
That's my only point. "Calm, orderly, content and knowing one's place" has it's merits. But, it has its downside too. One could say we, collectively will tolerate a lot more behavior which would have been considered outrageous decades ago. We'd still be under British rule if we followed today's sense of playing nicely.

I don't know where the balance should be. But, when exposed to other cultures, I often feel we've gone too far toward civility and "herd" behavior. But, I agree with others that daily street vengeance wouldn't be pleasant either.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417038 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:00:17 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417018 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21417018 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:58:31 EDT Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21416994 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Global-Crossing-Hurricane-Electric-looked-other-way-21416994 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:55:19 EDT