| reply to amigo_boy
Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ?? said by amigo_boy:said by S_engineer:But human right violations are an integral part of the latin American model. Are we too supposed to emulate that? We used to. And it took behavior considered "uppity" by those who liked the status quo. Latin American tolerance (even encouragement) of popular protest is part of preventing such abuses. Silence would likely lead to resurgences of dictatorships. Like I said. I like our calm, content, orderly society. It has its benefits. But, it has its downside too. Such as abusers who feel there's no limit to popular "norms" (acceptance = validation, etc.). Mark Mark, if you've traveled as I have, you know it's still the best game in town! |
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| said by S_engineer:if you've traveled as I have, you know it's still the best game in town! Better in some ways. Not in others. This shouldn't have to boil down to "love it, or leave it." There should be room to discuss the pros and cons of how our country has matured. Maturing is not always good. If you're older, I'm sure you can think of a few examples of what I mean.
Mark |
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| theres always room for improvement. And as a maturing adult, I certainly feel the pain. One of the most troublesome aspects that has formed in recent years is the merely competitive nature of business morphing into the crisis model thats now in place. This is not only in business, but its in gov't at every level. This marketing technique is used to create shortfalls in budgets, but also to shape our policies, and recently used with several presidential candidates. But you can't keep looking at what the "Joneses" across the borders have, because behind close doors, they have plenty of their own grief!
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"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress |
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3 edits | said by S_engineer:But you can't keep looking at what the "Joneses" across the borders have, because behind close doors, they have plenty of their own grief! I agree they have their own grief. But, that shouldn't mean we can't consider what's possibly better.
Many of our problems seem to be attributable to apathy, or contentedness, or how we've written into law how every little thing should work (instead of encouraging the use of common sense, however imperfect that is in daily operation).
For example, I think there's something to be said for forcing all eligible adults to vote (done in some Latin American countries) as a way to keep the population engaged and reminded of their *duty* to participate, rather than expect someone else to fix problems. It has its downside too. (I'm not sure I'd want people voting who don't want to vote.) But, it's at least a step toward addressing a problem which I don't see us even trying to.
Mark |
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| Let me ask you something rhetorically, and I don't mean to demean. Are you raising a family? Do you have several jobs?
The reason why I ask because I'm not sure people without kids understand the obligations that MUST be met just to maintain necessities. This becomes an induced apathy because you don't have time to monitor the representative you've elected in your particular corner of the earth. I think this is the case with most working adults. It is peoples duty to participate, but it's also their duty to imform themselves about legislation. And what good is legislation if you're going to bypass it with a lynch mob mentality.
In addition, forcing an electorate would only fuel marketing to the ignorant.
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"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress |
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| said by S_engineer:the obligations that MUST be met just to maintain necessities. This becomes an induced apathy I agree to some extent. But, I'm not sure how many people merely don't have time as opposed to being caught up in making the payments for their new all-wheel-drive, armor-laden SUV (purchased every 2 years). Or, their time-share condos. Or, the latest Wii game. Or, downloading all the "free" music they can find on the net.
Sometimes I think apathy translates more into contentedness. I think most people are like the hoard shown in the movie The Matrix. Plugged in, all their bodily functions performed for them, and slowly slipping into uselessness as a consumer.
They may occasionally express an opinion about current affairs, stopped in mid-sentence with "oooh, is that the new Blackberry? (salivation)"
said by S_engineer:It is peoples duty to participate, but it's also their duty to imform themselves about legislation. That's the rub, isn't it? How does something carry the weight of a duty if it's not enforced? We've lost a great deal in this regard. The jury was intended to be a fourth branch of government. Where individuals could essentially veto a law (nullification). Today, most good citizens would be as horrified by that idea as they would be by violent protests (or even horn-blowing labor strikers in the middle of an airport). They'd see it as "anarchy."
The same thing with the militia. It was intended to give the people the ability, working within a framework of government (a state militia), the power to *choose* to oppose government. It's no surprise that the militia's disappearance began in the 1880s through 1930s, as there were instances where the militia was called out to put down a labor strike, and instead defended the strikers.
Both of those institutions were originally compelled. (The jury still is, but is typically instructed that it only has the power to judge the facts of the case, not the law itself.).
The question is how do we get back to that. Or, do we want to? Whatever we do will be problematic. I at least feel a sense of wishing we were a little more like Latin American countries when I see students and the police squaring off for their annual violent protest (an eerie sense of the casualness of a re-enactment, but with real bullets). Or, 20 protestors in the airport raising heck (legally, as a recognized and encouraged act). Something about the passion at least. And the respect for passion as a part of civil life.
Mark |
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| said by amigo_boy:said by S_engineer:the obligations that MUST be met just to maintain necessities. This becomes an induced apathy The question is how do we get back to that. Or, do we want to? Whatever we do will be problematic. Mark Getting back what we would lost would mean all the cards would have to be laid out. No circumventing by people with their own greed or agendas. Complicating this mess are the globalization factors that continue to erode our manufacturing base and our sovereignty.
I think about how my parents went through years of the great depression. They had the tenacity to tough it out. The question seems to me is in a era where we want everything right now, are we as tough as they were?
If we're not, we're in trouble!
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"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress |
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1 edit | said by S_engineer:The question seems to me is in a era where we want everything right now, are we as tough as they were? If we're not, we're in trouble! It sounds like you might be advocating a big-bang approach. The system will eventually melt down, and that's when people will be confronted with reality, forced into a crash-course in civic virtue (making choices based upon the "common good" rather than private interest).
That's one way. Some progressives argue that there are ways to re-instill a form of civic republicanism in the populace. From neighborhood watch groups that are empowered to do more than merely hide behind the curtain as they call 911, to "workplace democracy."
The latter is interesting to me because the Founders believed in civic republicanism. An ideology which was based upon ever-expanding frontiers. Where every citizen had the (compelled) duty to participate in government for the common good, and their participation was backed by the independence to retreat to his lands and be self-sufficient, needing no government.
By the standards of civic republicanism we've become the equivalent of share croppers. Working a 9-5 job with no ownership interest. No frontiers that we can retreat to.
The idea of workplace democracy would be to give individuals greater ownership and responsibility in their otherwise "at will" jobs. Intrusive upon business. But, more cooperative than the antagonistic relationship of labor unions versus "get what you can" management.
The idea being, there may be ways to reinstill elements behind civic virtue (individual emphasis on common good as a means to satisfy their own self-interest) without going all the way to an abrupt meltdown with a society that is "palsied" (from the founders viewpoint).
Civic republicanism is actually an interesting mix (or contradiction) of socialism and libertarianism. An interesting play between the liberties of the individual being foremost, but an emphasis upon the individual's dependence upon a virtuous government to recognize and protect those liberties. And, closing the circle, the individual's duty to ensure a virtuous government; and a government beind defined as one which compels individuals to participate and be virtuous.
Mark |
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| I wouldn't mind the big band approach in the context of finding out the true magnitude of the problems that we face. Each "band-member" will probably bring his/her own horrific baggage. This could help us to avoid the band-aid approach we seem to be taking now, and enact substantively changes proactively rather than seeing the system break as a whole.
Civic duty is an obligation, but it should not be mandated. This usually happens when people become adults. I believe Maslow was correct with his hierarchy of needs, but unfortunately Maslow isn't being properly taught in the classroom. Furthermore, what happens when you reach the top (this is the point when your giving back) and the cushion that provided your kindness gets wiped out?
And just how do you teach obligations to the Jerry Springer/Maury Povich generation ?
Idealistically, your aspirations for this country are commendable. Realistically....well...*sigh*
I'll continue to do my part
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"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress |
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| said by S_engineer:Idealistically, your aspirations for this country are commendable. Realistically....well...*sigh* That could be true. But, historically, a big-bang approach to shocking a "palsied" public (the founders' terminology) into stoic, rugged individualists balancing their self-interest with a "common good" hasn't been very realistic either. When a republic reaches the point (I believe) ours has, it's usually ripe for a demagogic populist.
Mark |
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| True, but the question is now the populist won, what policies (for lack of better term) is he going to enact to shape our society in a way that makes the population know that they have a constitutional role in the governing process. I think we're both trying to obtain alot of the same goals. You write well; it gives plenty of credence to your position. Continue non-repentant with your positions. It gives the opposition food for thought. Whether or not they digest it is yet to be seen. I enjoyed the discussion.
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"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress |
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