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 jmn1207Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA | Re: Make H. S. Broadband available where AC power is available. If your roads are built with taxes on vehicles and property tax, if you have a road leading to your home, than it makes sense. If you do not benefit from a road, you should not be liable to pay for it.
The internet is not quite as simple. Certainly if you already have it, and wish for improvements, taxing the service is a given. However, for those that do not have broadband available, what do we tax for those people to cover the costs of bringing it to their homes? We can't expect everyone to pay, unless they want it.
The government does not magically pay for and support the people. It's OUR MONEY, the people's. Except for the money the government magically creates, which causes the value of my money, a commodity with nothing to back it up, to decrease. The government can't do a damn thing without our money. Without capitalism, or forcibly taking resources, there is only going to be a fraction of that money available for our government to waste. | |
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 ·magicjack.com
| Re: Make H. S. Broadband available where AC power is available. said by jmn1207:If you do not benefit from a road, you should not be liable to pay for it. Under your view, we wouldn't have the federal interstate system introduced under Eisenhower, a Republican.
The problem is defining "benefit." Even those far from the nearest interstate benefited because they could more easily receive goods from across the country. They just didn't "benefit as much" as the person who lived in a city alongside an interstate.
Conservatives need to lay off the formulaic, black-and-white defining a world of grays.
Mark | |
| | jmn1207Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA | Re: Make H. S. Broadband available where AC power is available. The Interstates were constructed for national defense, so that we could mobilize our troops within our own borders, if necessary. They were not just created for the Griswolds and their Family Truckster. | |
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| Re: Make H. S. Broadband available where AC power is available. said by jmn1207:The Interstates were constructed for national defense, so that we could mobilize our troops within our own borders, if necessary. They were not just created for the Griswolds and their Family Truckster. It was lobbied by automobile manufacturers, and is still funded today by federal funds (although administered locally by states).
My point about disparate costs and benefits remains.
Mark | |
| | | | jmn1207Premium
join:2000-07-19
Ashburn, VA
1 edit | Re: Make H. S. Broadband available where AC power is available. The problem is that corporations can manipulate our politicians to pay for things that they would otherwise have to pay for themselves. They have us building sports stadiums with our taxes using your same reasoning. I'm just suggesting that it is not necessary, nor is it often fair or even constitutionally allowable, if only we enforced existing laws.
I'm simply playing the Devil's advocate. I think our nation would greatly benefit from a sound broadband policy. We just have to be careful that waste, fraud, and abuse are not running rampant. The companies that will be involved don't have the greatest track record when it comes to scruples. | |
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| Re: Make H. S. Broadband available where AC power is available. said by jmn1207:I'm simply playing the Devil's advocate. I think our nation would greatly benefit from a sound broadband policy. We just have to be careful that waste, fraud, and abuse are not running rampant. The companies that will be involved don't have the greatest track record when it comes to scruples. I agree. I just objected to the use of the term "capitalism" as if it's an absolute standard. There's nothing contradictory about social ownership of an infrastructure (even if some benefit more than others).
But, I agree we should be more demanding about big corporations abusing contracts associated with socialized capitalism.
Mark | |
| | | | | | | I understand your reasoning. Stadiums, though it pisses me off just like others that these greedy millionaires want us to fund it for them, they are right in the fact that the stadium being there benefits the city greatly and has a much greater positive economic impact than the cost. The reason this ticks me off is because of greed. They don't need to do it, but out of greed they choose to do it. That simply is not my mindset and I pity those who's mindset is that way. | |
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| |  PiggieI Actually use WindstreamPremium
join:2005-11-23
Orange Springs, FL | said by jmn1207:The Interstates were constructed for national defense, so that we could mobilize our troops within our own borders, if necessary. They were not just created for the Griswolds and their Family Truckster. True, but historically most things built, including software find new uses.
Then again, if Firestone and Rockefeller were smart enough to buy up all the electric trolleys and sell the cites buses that used diesel and rubber tires, don't you think they saw the same thing with trucks on the interstates? Pull up those danged old fashion rails and run trucks. I am positive this was the goal, considering it all happened about the same time.
I see one big difference between free market internet vs govt internet. Free Market increases bandwidth by placing caps and restrictions on use. I builds only where there is a profit. Govt internet (in other countries) raises the infrastructure for more bandwidth and does run internet to more people. Granted, the US has a LOT more very sparse rural areas.
These same very rural areas didn't get mail, until RFD, and didn't get electric power until Rural Coops were formed. My grandparents didn't have electricity or even thought they needed it in Appalachia. My father sent home his War checks from the Pacific to his sister that made them put power in the house that was just available from the coops. After that they could not live without it.
Does the free market do this? No. If the free market people were honest they would (and they know) that by selling off the fruits of regulation, they can make a lot of money fast, then crash (today).
But they sure put on a good sob story when their free markets turn bad. Yeah, 2 trillion. Add the trillion from Iraq war, would fix nearly everything in the country and provide 10 years of health care for everyone. Nope a few very rich people got richer.
By now again (history repeats itself for those that don't read), everyone should know, the only thing that trickles down hill is bovine excrement, and in bountiful amounts. | |
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Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO | jmn
Think about when the interstates were first built. That money did not just come from vehicle and property taxes. It also was to everyones benefit. Think how much more expensive stuff would be if the interstates had not been built. Same with the railroads, in the long term they were paid for by the land that was given to them by the government(a section for every mile of track as I recall). Think of all the work done on infrastructure by the government during the dirty thirtys and all the good it did. The internet would fit into the same category. IF they would run FTTH to every house in the US it would greatly simplify many things. If it where a GPON based system it could could run phone, TV, HSI, all on one line with (relatively) minimal physical maintenance. With say 50/50 to every household telecommuting would become much easier (and cheaper) to accomplish. In rural areas taking college classes from home over the internet is now possible but difficult due to slow connections. This would clean up that issue nicely. | |
| | RayWPremium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
kudos:1 | Re: Make H. S. Broadband available where AC power is available. said by Lazlow:jmn Think about when the interstates were first built. That money did not just come from vehicle and property taxes. It also was to everyones benefit. .... Same with the railroads, in the long term they were paid for by the land that was given to them by the government(a section for every mile of track as I recall). Think of all the work done on infrastructure by the government during the dirty thirtys and all the good it did. The internet would fit into the same category. IF they would run FTTH to every house in the US it would greatly simplify many things. We the people (aka government) tried to build an excellent system along the Wasatch Front in Utah. Unfortunately, it was short circuited when the next level up (state) was bought by Qwest. A lot of folks here applauded that action saying only the rich companies were allowed to build internet service, not the people/local governments.
I find it amusing that a lot of folks are now wanting government involved in the internet. It will be interesting now that there will be a Democrat in the presidency again, if the Democratic House and Senate will get unbought at the national level. Of course, looks like he is just bringing back the old cronies from before, so I doubt if you will see much difference except for more rapid shifting of money from one hand to the other, and the middle class shafted again. After all, in the national scene all the president does is approve congressional bills, and he has to to be nice or else he gets nothing done that he asks for.
People forget how much the various governments were involved in the deployment of utilities in the beginning, and what happens sometimes when they gave up those utilities (California and the power crises in the early 2000's?).
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
| | | Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO | Re: Make H. S. Broadband available where AC power is available. Ray
Lots of politicians do get bought. There is just no arguing the point. However if enough public pressure is brought on, those same politicians will scurry for cover, bought or not.
I would agree with your assessment of the Presidency when it is applied to a weak (or dumb) president, but when you get a strong (or smart) president in office, it is a whole new ballgame. A smart president can use the American people as a club to beat congress into line. We saw it most strongly with FDR and JFK, tons of things they did were not popular in congress(think of the space race). A few good speeches or fireside chats (done properly) and the American people were with the President. When congress feels (fear of the public)this pressure, they are suddenly willing to do a lot of things. But it does require someone in the office to inspire (as opposed to scare) the American people into action. If the people just lay there and take it, the politicians decisions go to the highest bidder. Even in offices other than the Presidency this can be a very effective tool. Just look at all the stuff Huey Long pulled, with the people of Louisiana backing him. | |
| | | | PiggieI Actually use WindstreamPremium
join:2005-11-23
Orange Springs, FL
1 edit | Re: Make H. S. Broadband available where AC power is available. said by Lazlow: However if enough public pressure is brought on, those same politicians will scurry for cover, bought or not. When congress feels (fear of the public)this pressure, they are suddenly willing to do a lot of things. But it does require someone in the office to inspire (as opposed to scare) the American people into action. Combine the pressure of the internet. I have heard, if you really want to get their attention, write a letter or send a fax. First most people don't have a fax machine. Second by the time a letter arrives it's too late.
Sure a few emails used be considered from a few activists. But when they receive hundreds of thousands, if not a millions of emails they have to take it seriously.
Don't believe the lie that emailing your congress people is a waste of time. Email the office of the President too. If everyone that thinks it's a waste of time to do so, it would add tens of thousands of emails to the pile.
It's something that should not let up. The candidates, those that won and lost after this election know the power of the internet. Keep them on their toes. Bookmark their email forms and email them anytime you feel strongly, like about spending the money on internet infrastructure.
It's not one big harder to email them than the way we all spout our opinions here.
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| Speedstream 4200 Modem - 3m/384 plan | W98-W2KSP4-XPSP2 - All AMD | Buffalo WHR G54S with Tomato 1.18 | 3 downstream switches feeding 6 total clients (no wireless) | Including the Data port on the side of my neck | | |
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| | PiggieI Actually use WindstreamPremium
join:2005-11-23
Orange Springs, FL | said by RayW:People forget how much the various governments were involved in the deployment of utilities in the beginning, and what happens sometimes when they gave up those utilities (California and the power crises in the early 2000's?). And don't forget that bill that made that possible was sponsored by ex-Sen Phil Gramm (R-TX) and signed by President William Jefferson Clinton (Dem), in late 2000.
Yes, don't expect a lot of difference. If the above example doesn't expose both parties have their hands in the same pot, I have more examples.
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| Speedstream 4200 Modem - 3m/384 plan | W98-W2KSP4-XPSP2 - All AMD | Buffalo WHR G54S with Tomato 1.18 | 3 downstream switches feeding 6 total clients (no wireless) | Including the Data port on the side of my neck | | |
| | | | RayWPremium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
kudos:1 | Re: Make H. S. Broadband available where AC power is available. said by Piggie:said by RayW:People forget how much the various governments were involved in the deployment of utilities in the beginning, and what happens sometimes when they gave up those utilities (California and the power crises in the early 2000's?). And don't forget that bill that made that possible was sponsored by ex-Sen Phil Gramm (R-TX) and signed by President William Jefferson Clinton (Dem), in late 2000. Yes, don't expect a lot of difference. If the above example doesn't expose both parties have their hands in the same pot, I have more examples. Actually, California's problem stemmed from before that, they were required to give up the utilities they built using federal funds under some old law regulating the use of said funds. But the bill (AKA the Enron bill) I think you pointed to may have helped make a bad deal worse due to market manipulation. Just goes to show, both sides are crooked, they just point fingers at each other with one hand, and trade favors and cash with the other.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
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