Topic 'Re: Whack a mole.' in forum '' - dslreports.com http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21421167 en Sat, 11 Feb 2012 08:58:55 EDT Sat, 11 Feb 2012 08:58:55 EDT Re: Whack a mole. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21428287 said by Sean:

How do you propose you convince the judge and jury MyColo knew about what was going on? There aren't any current laws about HAVING to know what your clients are doing, because that in itself is absurd (imagine having to keep tabs on ALL of your clients, and then your client's clients, etc since they are on your server).
Many laws are simply "what a reasonable person" should have been expected to know, or do. For example, laws concerning self defense don't spell out the exact action or moment that justifies the use of lethal force. They are worded "if you had reasonable fear for your life, the life of another, or grievous bodily injury."

"Reasonable" is what an average person considers to be reasonable. That's decided by a jury of your peers.

I see nothing wrong with a reasonableness test. It's not about finding the exact defining moment that an ISP would be complicit. It's about finding those cases (like this one) where an ISP's customer was hosting half the spammers on the internet. I don't think a jury would have trouble with the question of whether an ISP should have "reasonably" known.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21428287 Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:11:05 EDT Re: Whack a mole. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21428059 said by bent:

said by S_engineer:

Problem is they were shut down prematurely. Not all of McColos clients were spammers. They had legitimate sites being hosted. So this opens up liabilities on that front. Not to mention McColo hasn't been formally charged with anything.
"Also unclear is the extent to which McColo could be held legally responsible for the activities of the clients for whom it provides hosting services. There is no evidence that McColo has been charged with any crime, and these activities may not violate the law."
this is from krebs himself...»www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co···oduletmv
By talking these actions, McColo may not only be entitled to damages, but ironically enough so may their clients.

All Krebs had to do was contact the proper authorities. But he decided that the rag post needed a sales spike. This route almost guarantees McColo part deux 1
Time for a law change. If it's on your servers and you know it's there, and you know it's illegal, you're complicit. The ISPs that pulled the plug were confronted with enough evidence that they really had no other choice, and the spam data certainly backs up their position. Im sure their TOS with McCulo (pun intended) included a prohibition against any illegal activity.

If you lie down with pigs, you get up smelling like shit. Next step should be the FBI seizing McCulos hardware as evidence and let a judge sort it out.
Don't be a fascist. Only fascists make reactionary laws.

How do you propose you convince the judge and jury MyColo knew about what was going on? There aren't any current laws about HAVING to know what your clients are doing, because that in itself is absurd (imagine having to keep tabs on ALL of your clients, and then your client's clients, etc since they are on your server).

So,
a) you cannot realistically expect an operation to keep tabs on all of it's terabytes of data
b) you will not be able to prove that said company had any sort of idea of what was going on

Having said this, imagine the ramifications on the people of the state. Imagine a world where a publisher (web hosting company) can't publish (host) ideas and thoughts (websites) for fear of the government deeming it illegal. It would be the beginning of the end to all free speech.

Fascist, much?

What you are suggesting should not ever be considered, and it should not ever, ever become law.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21428059 Fri, 14 Nov 2008 14:27:36 EDT Re: Whack a mole. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423777 said by S_engineer:

Apply that premise to torture in war, the execution of prisoners sentenced to death, How do you compare those things to merely presenting a business with evidence that one of its customers may be violating the business's terms of service?

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423777 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:58:53 EDT Re: Whack a mole. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423733 And since your such a proponent of the common good, then I assume your for a Southern wall and against gay marriage.
Because the majority of voters believe thats for the common good.
Stay consistent
--
"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423733 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:49:09 EDT Re: Whack a mole. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423617 said by S_engineer:

If mcColo is complicit for the s**t that they were hosting, and this was a violation of terms from global and hurricane, then they too are complicit due to the amount of time that this has been going on. If this was common knowledge, then why didn't Global and Hurricane pull the plug earlier?
Your position reminds me of the speeder pulled over by a traffic cop. As the cop stood there writing the ticket, the driver complained, "why did you pull me over? Look at all those people speeding? Like that a**hole? Or, that a**hole? (as each car passed by)."

The officer calmly replied, "One a**hole at a time, sir."

Don't let perfection be the enemy of good.

said by S_engineer:

will they plead ignorance just as McColo will?
I don't think anyone will plead anything. It's over. Everyone should have learned something from the experience.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423617 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:26:00 EDT Re: Whack a mole. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423587 said by amigo_boy:

said by S_engineer:

but your convicting
And you're overstating the facts. Nobody was convicted. The author merely presented upstream (and seemingly more professional) providers information he and other researchers had discovered about one of those providers' customers. Those providers apparently determined that McColo violated their terms of service.

said by S_engineer:

This is a blown opportunity
Again, you're overstating the facts. You don't know if law enforcement was investigating McColo. You don't know if they would have if the author took the info to LE. (You don't know the author didn't.).

What we do know is that ISPs (including Hurricane and Global) will likely be more cautious about enforcing their terms of service. Consequently making it harder for spammers, et al., to get service (in the US at least).

Mark
If mcColo is complicit for the s**t that they were hosting, and this was a violation of terms from global and hurricane, then they too are complicit due to the amount of time that this has been going on. If this was common knowledge, then why didn't Global and Hurricane pull the plug earlier?
will they plead ignorance just as McColo will?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423587 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:19:57 EDT Re: Whack a mole. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423507 said by S_engineer:

but your convicting
And you're overstating the facts. Nobody was convicted. The author merely presented upstream (and seemingly more professional) providers information he and other researchers had discovered about one of those providers' customers. Those providers apparently determined that McColo violated their terms of service.

said by S_engineer:

This is a blown opportunity
Again, you're overstating the facts. You don't know if law enforcement was investigating McColo. You don't know if they would have if the author took the info to LE. (You don't know the author didn't.).

What we do know is that ISPs (including Hurricane and Global) will likely be more cautious about enforcing their terms of service. Consequently making it harder for spammers, et al., to get service (in the US at least).

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423507 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 17:03:21 EDT Re: Whack a mole. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423472
He may have circumvented a pending investigation and given McColo an opportunity to trash illegal material. And even more, he could have documented his dealing with authorities in order to see what holes in the legal system needed to be plugged. This is a blown opportunity which has the potential to let McColo off of the hook!
--
"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423472 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:55:32 EDT Re: Whack a mole. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423421 said by S_engineer:

and may even enable them and their clients to seek damages against Global Crossing and hurricane.
I'm sure those two providers know their legal standing. You don't know the terms of service which McColo agreed to. You make it sound like McColo had an absolute right to those two networks.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423421 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:47:19 EDT Re: Whack a mole. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423415 said by S_engineer:

Everyones talking about a law change....but if your talking about a change in law then your admitting McColo didn't break any current law.
The WP says that unless it's k porn or copyright infringment, that's the case. However, the contract that McCulo had with their providers is a whole other ball of ear wax. The WP goes on to state that the commercial front-ends of several k porn rings were hosted by McCulo.
--
»www.lp.org/issues/family-budget

"That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423415 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:46:40 EDT Re: Whack a mole. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423382
This is going to be like a crime drama where the defendant gets released on a technicality. In this case, it will be the premature actions of Global and Hurricane, whom should also be complicit if they knew what was going on!
--
"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423382 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:38:51 EDT Re: Whack a mole. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423350 said by bent:

Time for a law change.
The change I'd like to see is in 39 USC 3008. A statute which gives individuals *unlimited* protection against mass mailers. If you read the 1970 Supreme Court decision concerning this law, it's obvious it should be extended to apply to email.

See »Re: Global Crossing & Hurricane Electric looked other way ??

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423350 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:32:31 EDT Re: Whack a mole. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423310 said by S_engineer:

Problem is they were shut down prematurely. Not all of McColos clients were spammers. They had legitimate sites being hosted. That's convenient. An organization can act with obvious complicity hosting malicious sites, but as long as they have at least *one* legitimate site, they're immune from disconnection by their upstream providers?

said by S_engineer:

McColo may not only be entitled to damages, but ironically enough so may their clients.
Damages from whom? The Wash. Post is protected under the First Amendment, especially if what it printed is true (and in many ways even if it wasn't). I'm sure the upstream providers know what they're doing.

said by S_engineer:

All Krebs had to do was contact the proper authorities. But he decided that the rag post needed a sales spike. This route almost guarantees McColo part deux 1
The scale of the problem makes a reasonable person wonder why the authorities hadn't tracked down long ago what Krebs did. I'm glad he published his story.

Remember, he quoted security experts who corroborated his findings. That means they hadn't notified authoties either.

My guess is (considering how many people knew about it), it was reported to authorities, but they chose to do nothing. Have you ever listed to Citizen Band Radio? The FCC knows there are widespread violations of the rules. It does very little.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423310 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:25:02 EDT Re: Whack a mole. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423176 said by S_engineer:

Problem is they were shut down prematurely. Not all of McColos clients were spammers. They had legitimate sites being hosted. So this opens up liabilities on that front. Not to mention McColo hasn't been formally charged with anything.
"Also unclear is the extent to which McColo could be held legally responsible for the activities of the clients for whom it provides hosting services. There is no evidence that McColo has been charged with any crime, and these activities may not violate the law."
this is from krebs himself...»www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co···oduletmv
By talking these actions, McColo may not only be entitled to damages, but ironically enough so may their clients.

All Krebs had to do was contact the proper authorities. But he decided that the rag post needed a sales spike. This route almost guarantees McColo part deux 1
Time for a law change. If it's on your servers and you know it's there, and you know it's illegal, you're complicit. The ISPs that pulled the plug were confronted with enough evidence that they really had no other choice, and the spam data certainly backs up their position. Im sure their TOS with McCulo (pun intended) included a prohibition against any illegal activity.

If you lie down with pigs, you get up smelling like shit. Next step should be the FBI seizing McCulos hardware as evidence and let a judge sort it out.
--
»www.lp.org/issues/family-budget

"That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21423176 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:58:21 EDT Re: Whack a mole. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21421887 --
Fed Up With Stupidity?

Patentlystupid.com

Nice drop!
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21421887 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:59:09 EDT Re: Whack a mole. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21421845 "Also unclear is the extent to which McColo could be held legally responsible for the activities of the clients for whom it provides hosting services. There is no evidence that McColo has been charged with any crime, and these activities may not violate the law."
this is from krebs himself...»www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co···oduletmv
By talking these actions, McColo may not only be entitled to damages, but ironically enough so may their clients.

All Krebs had to do was contact the proper authorities. But he decided that the rag post needed a sales spike. This route almost guarantees McColo part deux 1
--
"For duty and humanity!"
- Moe Larry and Curly (MEN IN BLACK, 1934)...These are the guys we have in Congress]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21421845 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:47:47 EDT Re: Whack a mole. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21421271
Yeah, where there is money, someone else will fill the spot. It's not like the spammers got shutdown, only one of their many data/zombie centers. :(
--
Fight NebuAD and the like:
Click Here to pollute their data]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Whack-a-mole-21421271 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:42:29 EDT Whack a mole. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Whack-a-mole-21421167
:huh:
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Whack-a-mole-21421167 Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:22:01 EDT