Sukunai
join:2008-05-07
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to noelstrom
Re: Unionized cuts starting at Bell
"Meanwhile, the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada said in a news release that the cuts are the result of outsourcing."
Hmmm they deny it (Bell), but hmnm I seem to recall this was PRECISELY why Bell no longer gets any money from me these days. |
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shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB
| said by Sukunai  :"Meanwhile, the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada said in a news release that the cuts are the result of outsourcing." Hmmm they deny it (Bell), but hmnm I seem to recall this was PRECISELY why Bell no longer gets any money from me these days. Care to show me where these office workers were outsourced to? The union yells "outsourcing" whenever a job is lost because they know people get pissed off by it.
I know 2009 is going to tough all over, and I too will be surprised if I end the year with the same job I have now.
It's sad to see people with families lose their job.
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The opinions in this post are wholly my own and in no way reflect the opinions of, or are influenced by my employer. |
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elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
join:2006-08-30
Toronto, ON | Its a country called INDIA, why pay someone big bucks (relatively speaking) when you can have the "office work" done in India.
Alternatively you bring in new bodies, reclassify the jobs and pay them less. |
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noelstrom
meh.
Premium
join:2003-04-07
London, ON
2 edits | reply to shaner
said by shaner :said by Sukunai :"Meanwhile, the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada said in a news release that the cuts are the result of outsourcing." Hmmm they deny it (Bell), but hmnm I seem to recall this was PRECISELY why Bell no longer gets any money from me these days. Care to show me where these office workers were outsourced to? The union yells "outsourcing" whenever a job is lost because they know people get pissed off by it. A lot of our network design work (people who draw new cable into our maps) is done by a Canadian firm called Prestiege. Ironically, they are mainly staffed by ex-Bell workers who took retirement packages.
The work annonuced yesterday - well that's now being done by a firm called Tech Mahindra in India. A fair sized chunk was sent in the summer. This is simply just the next phase. A lot of our business data equipment design work and database clean up is also being done by this firm - work that was being done by Bell employees just 6 months ago.
As mentioned - I believe my time in the company is now measured in weeks. What I do can easily be done offshore. In fact, a portion of my work, once it's out of my hands, goes to India, and doesn't return until the installation piece is required - simply because you can't install equipment from 4,000 kilometres away.
EDIT: Tech Mahindra's website |
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shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB | reply to elwoodblues
I know how outsourcing works. I was asking where specifically these jobs were outsourced to. Because unions like to use "outsourcing" as a war cry without any substantiation.
Thank you noelstrom for providing concrete information. |
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Devanchya
Smile
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Ajax, ON
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues :Its a country called INDIA, why pay someone big bucks (relatively speaking) when you can have the "office work" done in India. Alternatively you bring in new bodies, reclassify the jobs and pay them less. Actually India isn't as cheap as it use to be. It is actually quiet close to critical massing with internal growth as well.
While a lot of jobs can be done in other locations, they do not always end up there. A lot of growth is going on in the Eastern European countries, China, etc.
As an IT guy, my job is not to complain about outsourcing, but be someone who can work with the reality. |
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HeywoodFloyd
join:2008-11-23
Canada
| reply to shaner
Things are really bad at Bell because of the 11 layers of management (Rogers only has 4). Depending upon which business unit you reference for numbers, Bell Canada has 52k employees. 5100 Bell technicians are CEP. I'm not sure about the Expertech and BTS technicians but lets be liberal and pretend that these two add up to 4900 for a total of 10k technicians. (BTW, these people are CEP as well but corporate politics has made sure they have different CEP contracts, which do not come due at the same time).
Now the last time I counted, there were 12k clerks in an employee association known as the CTEA. If you divide 52 by 22 and drop the fraction you will see that there are two managers for every employee. (I thought the Roman army 2000 years ago proved that you should have one manager for every ten soldiers). Now the clerks have been getting fired left and right for 4 years now because the CTEA has no real power. (in fact, 30 years ago if you wanted to go into management, one sure fire way was to become a CTEA rep). So in 2007 the CTEA employees voted to dissolve the CTEA (association) and join the CEP (union) but this can't happen just yet because the Bell still has a valid contract with the CTEA.
OK so the Teachers are taking Bell private on December-11 and you know that the new owners will want to cut costs but letting dead wood float away. If middle management gets rid of clerks who are about to become unionized employees, and they do so by outsourcing this work to India and the Philippines, these managers will still be around to manage the foreign contractors. Managers are sacrificing employees to save their own skins and they don't seem to care how many customers will be driven away by this decision. (I have heard loss numbers of 10k per month or 120k per year) |
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noelstrom
meh.
Premium
join:2003-04-07
London, ON
1 edit | said by HeywoodFloyd :Things are really bad at Bell because of the 11 layers of management (Rogers only has 4). Depending upon which business unit you reference for numbers, Bell Canada has 52k employees. 5100 Bell technicians are CEP. I'm not sure about the Expertech and BTS technicians but lets be liberal and pretend that these two add up to 4900 for a total of 10k technicians. (BTW, these people are CEP as well but corporate politics has made sure they have different CEP contracts, which do not come due at the same time). It has nothing to do about corporate politics. It has everything to do with the timing of the original CTEA certification over 50 years ago. It is something that is trying to be corrected, although, it may not as currently, the CEP Craft bargaining agreement, the CEP Sales collective agreement and the CEP Clerical Agreement all come due within a year. Seems to me that's good timing already.
said by HeywoodFloyd :Now the last time I counted, there were 12k clerks in an employee association known as the CTEA. If you divide 52 by 22 and drop the fraction you will see that there are two managers for every employee... Now the clerks have been getting fired left and right for 4 years now because the CTEA has no real power. (in fact, 30 years ago if you wanted to go into management, one sure fire way was to become a CTEA rep). So in 2007 the CTEA employees voted to dissolve the CTEA (association) and join the CEP (union) but this can't happen just yet because the Bell still has a valid contract with the CTEA. I can assure you that is not true. I am a former CTEA, now CEP rep. The paperwork is done, and we are recoginzed by the Federal Labour Board as a certification in the CEP. The reason the collective agreement still exists without renegotiation is because when one union certifcation merges with another (which is what happened here) their collective agreement goes with them. We are now preparing to negotiate our new contract, as our current agreement expires at the end of May, 2009. The CTEA may have had Association in their name, but rest assured we were a striking union. Why didn't we ever strike? Because our membership NEVER gave us the mandate to in a strike vote. We were close in 2005, but the contract passed, thus nullifying the strike vote.
said by HeywoodFloyd :OK so the Teachers are taking Bell private on December-11 and you know that the new owners will want to cut costs but letting dead wood float away. If middle management gets rid of clerks who are about to become unionized employees, and they do so by outsourcing this work to India and the Philippines, these managers will still be around to manage the foreign contractors. Managers are sacrificing employees to save their own skins and they don't seem to care how many customers will be driven away by this decision. (I have heard loss numbers of 10k per month or 120k per year) Once you are hired at Bell, you are a unionized employee, unless you are hired specifically as a contractor. There is no such thing as a clerk who is about to become unionized. You're unionized the day you are hired. Don't forget, the management ranks were trimmed by 2,500 positions between September and October. Anyone who thought that unionized staff would not be affected was kidding themselves. That's not the point here. I can understand staff cuts due to budget cuts and jobs being eliminated. I can not, and will not support or stand by while CEP jobs, no matter what certification, are eliminated, and the work moved to an outsourcing company, whether it's onshore or offshore. |
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Kardinal
Canadair CT-114 Tutor
Premium
join:2001-02-04
N of 49th
clubs:
| reply to HeywoodFloyd
said by HeywoodFloyd :Things are really bad at Bell because of the 11 layers of management (Rogers only has 4). Depending upon which business unit you reference for numbers, Bell Canada has 52k employees. 5100 Bell technicians are CEP. I'm not sure about the Expertech and BTS technicians but lets be liberal and pretend that these two add up to 4900 for a total of 10k technicians. (BTW, these people are CEP as well but corporate politics has made sure they have different CEP contracts, which do not come due at the same time). Now the last time I counted, there were 12k clerks in an employee association known as the CTEA. If you divide 52 by 22 and drop the fraction you will see that there are two managers for every employee. You've posted this a couple of times -- would you please quote your source? 4 layers of management at Rogers would mean Ted Rogers (President & CEO, Rogers Communications), Edward Rogers (President, Rogers Cable), Directors of cable division, and Managers / team leaders (cable division) for every operational group. No VPs, nothing.
Also, please name the 11 layers of management at Bell, as that seems to be a bit far on the others side of things.
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The thoughts expressed in the above post are those of the poster, and can only be attributed to his state of mind at the time of posting.
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dirtyjeffer
Merry Christmas
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON | there are a lot of "managers" at Bell...it is like how there are a lot of "engineers" in the US.
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donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON
| reply to Kardinal
said by Kardinal :Also, please name the 11 layers of management at Bell, as that seems to be a bit far on the others side of things. George Ciope's plan with the layoffs in the summer was to cut the number of layer between him and the customer to (n). I am waiting for my person on the inside to get back to me on what the value of n is 
I do know Bell would have this:
CEO BCE
(may be some corporate SVPs and VPs in here)
President of Division (mobility, ExpressVue, etc)
SVPs
VPs
Directors
Associate Directors
Managers
Coordinators
Those are just the management layer, they do not interact with customers except in extreme circumstances.
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The irony of common sense, it is not that common
I cannot deny anything I did not say |
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Jolie
Take my advice.. I don't use it anyways.
Premium
join:2004-08-07
London, ON | If I remember correctly the layers were peeled from 11 to 7. |
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donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON
| said by Jolie :If I remember correctly the layers were peeled from 11 to 7. 8 is what I was just told.
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The irony of common sense, it is not that common
I cannot deny anything I did not say |
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Jolie
Take my advice.. I don't use it anyways.
Premium
join:2004-08-07
London, ON | I was thinking 7 or 8, but, for some reason the 7 kept sticking in my mind. |
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noelstrom
meh.
Premium
join:2003-04-07
London, ON | There are 6 between me and Cope. |
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donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON
| said by noelstrom :There are 6 between me and Cope. So you are one from the bottom?
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The irony of common sense, it is not that common
I cannot deny anything I did not say |
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noelstrom
meh.
Premium
join:2003-04-07
London, ON | Nope, I am the bottom. From top to bottom, my organization chart is Cope, Executive VP (Network), VP (Network Provisioning), Director, Regional Manager, Direct Manager, then me. |
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donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON | Sorry to hear that! |
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StingerMoD
join:2002-10-16
Calgary, AB | that sucks dude... I just hope im safe in the awning industry |
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