| reply to jc100
Re: Good luck.. But a Longshot... said by jc100:- Donate to the EFF. They're a worthy Cause. Not!! They are unwitting aiders and abettors to the terrorists - doing their job for them by trying to remove our ability to monitor terrorist activities.
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wentlancYou Can't Fix Dumb..
join:2003-07-30
Maineville, OH | The government had every ability to do that prior to 9/11. They just didn't pay attention to the info they had. Now you're going to tell us that they are going to start paying attention to that data, AND all of the noise they are getting?? Collecting both international AND domestic calls adds value? And all without any probable cause or due process?
You justify your own police state. The real Americans here aren't buying into it.
cw |
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| reply to fAcEtIOUs
Tk.....
Their job of spying on us, listening to soldiers, aid groups, bed talk.. Yea, sounds productive. All the while, we had intelligence prior to 9/11 and ignored it. How about we use good old fashion police work, fix the communication between our agencies, and preserve America and it's freedoms. Hard to spread Democracy if you are busy taking it away from the people you claim to be giving it too... Ay? |
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| reply to wentlanc
I agree. They fought terrorists just fine before, adding all the extra "spying" ability did nothing but start producing a huge number of false-positives and allowed our nation's top agencies to become politicized. So far I see no evidence that the extra spying assisted in any way. What I did see was a serious increase in US-loving citizens who actively protested becoming labeled terrorists. Is that what this country is coming to?
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- "Techie" Jim |
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| Yes it is. Therefore, please stand by patiently, for the reeducation team to arrive. We can't have people questioning the U.S. That is anti patriotic. Please proceed to line A to pick up your flag, ball cap, and a serving of freedom fries.
Btw, poor Ohio. I am from there (born and raised) but moved some months back. If you want a picture of dead, Ohio and Michigan... Sigh, maybe we should be wasting money on building stuff and creating jobs.. and not on big brother central. |
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baj475
join:2004-11-02
Chico, CA Reviews:
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| reply to fAcEtIOUs
TK,
Did you flunk civics? Nobody is trying to remove the ability of law enforcement to monitor terrorist activities. The FFF, like many of us, are just demanding that that they follow the law and not violate and stomp on our constitutional rights. All we ask is that they follow the simple expedient of obtaining a warrant before they tap someone's phone line. While I do not dispute that terrorist are a clear and real threat, a government whose officials are not required to obey laws protecting our rights is an even bigger threat. |
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lesopp
join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL
1 edit | reply to wentlanc
Re: Good luck.. But a Longshot... Every ability except where they were prevented from sharing non-domestic information with domestic agencies.
A past failure shouldn't be used to setup a future failure.
I'm a real American, I'm here, and I'm not buying what you're selling either. Let's not forget that during WWII the democrats controlled the house, the senate and the presidency. We were more like a police state then than now.
Roosevelt with the consent of the democrat majority:
Herded Japanese Americans into concentration camps, read peoples mail, tried and executed German nationals in the US through the use of military commissions, and extinguished several hundred thousand lives through the use of the first WMD.
Correction: After assuming the presidency upon FDR's passing Truman used the first WMD. |
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| reply to fAcEtIOUs
said by fAcEtIOUs:Not!! They are unwitting aiders and abettors to the terrorists - doing their job for them by trying to remove our ability to monitor terrorist activities. damn TK, you are one really scared dude - willing to give up your constitutionally guaranteed rights for the ephemeral "protection" of big daddy govt.
you should move to Russia, I hear they have a pretty good surveillance state (and they've been at it longer than we have!). Then you can feel safe and sound that every terrorist communication will be intercepted and acted upon, with no regard to civil or other rights. |
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| reply to baj475
said by baj475:just demanding that that they follow the law They did follow the law. 18 USC 2511 has been the law for many years. It accomodates executive power to authorize warrantless access to telco data. Instead of challenging this law to begin with, EFF pursued personal-injury lawsuits. This resulted in Congress adding even more "congressional intent" to the law when they referred to 2511 as the basis for so-called "immunity."
Mark |
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| reply to jimbo2150
said by jimbo2150:I agree. They fought terrorists just fine before, adding all the extra "spying" ability No additional SPYING ability was added. It has been there for decades. It is just that the terrorist sympathizers are now making a crusade about getting rid of it.
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? |
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| reply to jimbo2150
said by jimbo2150:adding all the extra "spying" ability did nothing This is a classic case of backseat driving. You don't know that it did nothing. If their aggregation of data turns up a suspect, they don't announce it in the paper. They just use the information to focus traditional surveillance resources. If they find something, they may just deport the individual instead of prosecute.
I'm personally aware of someone here on a green card who left the country on vacation, and was unable to return due to "problems with his immigration papers. It didn't surprise me because he was supportive of Osama, Hamas, etc.
Another guy was kicked out of the country. He went to Australia and was deported to his home country (Saudi Arabia). He was put in prison.
Mark |
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wentlancYou Can't Fix Dumb..
join:2003-07-30
Maineville, OH | said by fAcEtIOUs:No additional SPYING ability was added. It has been there for decades. It is just that the terrorist sympathizers are now making a crusade about getting rid of it. said by amigo_boy:This is a classic case of backseat driving. You don't know that it did nothing. If their aggregation of data turns up a suspect, they don't announce it in the paper. They just use the information to focus traditional surveillance resources. If they find something, they may just deport the individual instead of prosecute. One says no additional spying capabilities were added, the other argues that we cannot confirm that the additional spying has NOT turned up leads... Come on guys. Talk to each other before you post. Were additional abilities added AFTER 9/11 or not?
cw |
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1 edit | reply to fAcEtIOUs
Re: Good luck.. But a Longshot... said by fAcEtIOUs:They are unwitting aiders and abettors to the terrorists - doing their job for them by trying to remove our ability to monitor terrorist activities. You know this country is going to shit when the protection of Constitution rights is equated with helping the "enemy".
The requirement of having a warrant to gather intelligence worked for years. There was no logical reason to suspend that requirement, especially when that warrant could be issued AFTER the actual surveillance.
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| reply to wentlanc
said by wentlanc:One says no additional spying capabilities were added, the other argues that we cannot confirm that the additional spying has NOT turned up leads... I agree with TK. Nothing was added. 18 USC 2511 existed for years.
All we know is that it was exercised between 9/11/2001 and Jan/??/2007 (the date range which so-called immunity applies). We don't know how effective it was because it wasn't used as the basis of prosecution. Just the basis to obtain probable cause in order to direct traditional surveillance. And, since the terror they sought to prevent had direct correlation to immigrants, it's entirely credible that the result of traditional surveillance would be quite expulsion due to inexplicable "problems" with a person's application for residence.
Mark |
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wentlancYou Can't Fix Dumb..
join:2003-07-30
Maineville, OH | reply to lesopp
Politicize much?
So the failure was not lack of ability to get the data, but failure for agencies to communicate to each other. How is adding the ability to listen to every conversation both foreign and domestic, and without oversight or warrants going to help government agencies communicate better? Oh yeah, it won't.
I don't pick labels. Democrat, Republican, Independent, they are all Americans, and all are paid to work in the rest of our best interests. The failure was our government's ability to communicate to itself, not their ability to get the data they needed.
cw |
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| reply to NetAdmin1
said by NetAdmin1:The requirement of having a warrant to gather intelligence worked for years. You have an anachronistic view of history. The executive branch has always had the power to conduct surveillance independent of any other branch (short of leading to a constitutional crisis if it went too far).
Former AG Gonzalez documented examples going back to President Washington.
The Constitution exists to protect us. We don't exist to protect the constitution to our own peril. It will never be a perfect balance. But, it never has. And we've done pretty well compared to where we would be if history had been as perfect as today's perfectionists insist that it was.
Mark |
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wentlancYou Can't Fix Dumb..
join:2003-07-30
Maineville, OH | reply to amigo_boy
If it was lawful, then why do they need immunity?
cw |
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| reply to amigo_boy
Probably cause, witch hunt, what's the difference. Let me walk into your house, look around, and find probably cause to arrest you on anything. I'm sure I could find SOMETHING illegal you are doing at any given point, and stir up dirt. Give me a break. We're witch hunting, spying on soldiers, aid groups, activists, etc. We're big brother central and we are trying to hide the program behind immunity now. Get over your blind faith for everything stupid Amigo. |
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