AT&T Cutting 12,000 Jobs > And in a year they'll be wishing they hadn't

reply to jc100

Re: And in a year they'll be wishing they hadn't

Regan is universally admired? Really?

- Iran Contra Crisis with Oliver North
- Cia Selling Drugs in South America to fund the Sandistas
- Star Wars
- First Trillion Dollar Debt in U.S. History
- Reganomics

Please.. Enlighten me how such failures promote admiration. There's no needle in a haystack. There's a lot of mess, and not a big enough mop... HARD NUMBERS from BLS.GOV paint a picture, and you just can't face that head on.

As for blame, funny. Clinton had a Republican Congress and got plenty done. Seems to me if Regan was such a man to inspire awe and admiration, he could have pulled the flock together. Instead, he sank this country into a crisis.

P.S. People liked Regan as he was a Charmer and for his past Acting Jobs. Just as American's liked Bush. He struck them as a guy who they could drink a beer with. Doesn't mean Regan or Bush were good leaders. Just they had charming skills. Plenty of Dictators and Mass Murderers in history were charmers, too. Want to sell me on how they were good people, since they won favor of many?

Try again.

reply to Dogfather
See reply below. BLS.GOV > Google. Facts in hard data trump personal tales of "Woh Me" and bias. Ouch.

reply to jc100

Fixing the economy? How? By sinking us in OUR FIRST trillion dollar deficit? Wasting Money on Star Wars? Selling Drugs in South America while we Funded the Sandistas? So on and So forth. He fixed nothing. Matter of fact, prior to regan, PEOPLE OWED US MONEY. Regan sank us in debt to others.

As for collapsing the soviet union, that's been a catch 22. On one hand, we brought down the soviet empire. On the other, we probably would have been better off letting it stand. Many of those countries are far from free, are breeding grounds for fundamentalists, and live under worse dictatorships than the USSR served. Let's face it, we didnt have those "Stans" training terrorists when the USSR ran them.

reply to jc100

quote:

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- Iran Contra Crisis with Oliver North
- Cia Selling Drugs in South America to fund the Sandistas
- Star Wars
- First Trillion Dollar Debt in U.S. History
- Reganomics

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reply to jc100
Typical liberal symbolism over substance.

Uh, ALL FACTS > cherry picked statistics

Sure, go ahead and ignore the rest of reality and the chronology of ACTUAL EVENTS that lead to those statistics and the timeline in which they occurred.

With your logic let's go look at American death statistics for Dec 1941 to Aug 1945 and say that it's because Truman was a bad president. The circumstances that lead to those statistics are, according to you, irrelevant.

reply to Dogfather
Ah yes, More right ring Falsehoods.

A) You enjoy socialism bud. You got hospitals in the U.S., Roads in the U.S., Schools, Emergency services, etc. Those are ALL SOCIALIZED. You pay a small portion of the taxes, along with everyone else. Those go into a collective pot, and are dished out to contracts to carry out said services. Yet, being you are NOT the only one building the roads, funding the schools, etc, you are socialized by the 300 million other tax payers. How about this. You pay for the FULL COST of teacher salaries. Say there are 50 teachers and 400 students. Instead of asking the city and other tax payers to foot the bill, the parents of those 400 students should pay the 5 or 6 million it would cost to run that school in a given year. Lets see 6 million / 400 = about 15,000 PER FAMILY in this instance. I like that idea. So get off your socialism soap box. Unless you are paying for everything out of pocket, America is as much socialized as ANY OTHER NATION. You right wingers have just stupefied you into believing you should see LITTLE RETURN on your money so big business can get all the subsidies.. Farming.. for one ay?

As for Soviet Expansion.. We had McCarthyism / Red Scare/ Vietnam etc,. You know how these all ended? In absolute failures. Obviously, the world's not going to end with socialism. It takes place here in America. See above. More right ring stupidity and propaganda.

Laughable is your response to the Iran Contra Crisis. Oliver North was Convicted SMART ONE of selling Arms to Iran. Do you read history, or is history something your type ignore?

Regarding the sandistas, the CIA admitted to selling drugs to fund them. Watch the Movie American War on Drugs or google anything regarding these events. Obviously, you're making up of history suits you better. To prove this point, we had no problems with RUTHLESS DICTACTORS like Noriega running the show. We just didn't like he ran a side business and stopped being our puppet. As long as Dictators like Batista, Noriega, etc do as they are told. We don't care what happens to the people. Just so long as our agenda is carried out. Once again, you FAIL.

Stars wars broke up the soviet union? No, an ARMS RACE BROKE UP the soviet union. Star wars was a BILLION DOLLAR FAILURE that didn't do anything but squander american tax payer dollars. Spin doctor much?

Trillion dollar debt? Guess you forgot who was running Congress - Just cause Congress Approves, doesn't mean the President has to spend it =). Nice try though. Regan had no qualms about using the money and sinking us into debt, as much as Congress .

Funny Enough, these fiscally conservative Republicans.. Regan, Bush Sr, Bush Jr have added to our debt. Clinton had it under control. Funny ay? Bush Jr alone has added 6 trillion out of the 10.

So now, has history and your civics teacher failed you much? Your take on anything regarding history and reality are flawed.

reply to jc100
You have zero clue what you're talking about. Yeah, Ukraine was better off under Soviet tyranny, uh huh. I guess East Germany is worse off now as well.

And sure guy, there was no terrorism before 1991.

reply to jc100
Hospitals and roads aren't "socialism" by any stretch of the imagination (unless you found out about a universal heathcare program we don't know about or don't have to pay car registration or license fees). As for the red scare, you obviously have no clue what you're talking about. It was Kennedy that got us into Vietnam and in typical gov't fashion, politicians tried to run the war instead of letting the military do it. It's the same mess that prolonged the Iraq war...politics and poll-taking

Oliver North? You mean the guy Reagan FIRED? And you're the one in need of an education. He wasn't convicted for selling arms to Iran. He was convicted of accepting an illegal gratuity, destruction of documents and obstruction of a congressional inquiry and in 1990 all of those convictions were VACATED. Much like Martha Stewart, North wasn't busted for ANYTHING the Congress was trying to bust him for. He got temporarily busted for what he did during the Democrat run witch-hunt. It's the same which-hunt bullcrap that Republicans did to Clinton...busted him for perjury, not anything he actually did outside the courtroom.

Yep, I'm going to get my "facts" from "American War" instead of actual history. Of course you ignore 50 years of CIA involvement in this and act as if the CIA did it just this one time under direct instruction from Reagan. What a joke.

What to you think propelled the 1980's arms race genius? It was STAR WARS, and obviously you don't even know what Star Wars was. SDI was more than space based weapons. It was KE weapons, advanced missile launch detection systems, ABMs...it was a comprehensive program designed to make the increasing accurate Soviet heavy ballistic missiles obsolete and a lot of these programs are in use today under the BMDO. Without ballistic missiles and the survivability of the (at the time) new LGM-118A (MX) missiles, the Soviets were sunk so they spent and spent and spent on increasing their military capabilities through conventional as well as nuclear means in hopes of overwhelming SDI to hit Minuteman III and MX sites and it broke their backs.

Don't believe it? What went on in the late 1980's is EXACTLY what is going on now. The US is deploying minimal ballistic missile defenses in Europe and the Russians are spending a TON of cash to insure they can overwhelm it. SDI at maturity would have been BMD x 1000 and Gorbachev KNEW he didn't have the money to counter this. Their social infrastructure continued to collapse because of military spending in the face of SDI. So he for all intents and purposes surrendered and SDI was subsequently scaled back during the 1990's to the BMDO we see today.

Yeah, let's lay all the blame for Congressional spending on Reagan and let Congress off scott free.

As for Clinton...for the first two years with Clinton and a democratic congress, the budget was a disaster. Only after the Democrats got their asses kicked in 1994 and Republicans actually controlled both houses of Congress did the budget come under control. It's very convenient of you to forget about the "government shut downs" because Clinton wanted to spend a ton of money and Gingrich and the Republicans were saying no. Clinton and the liberal media demonized Gingrich for not wanting to blow up gov't with tons of new and expanding socialist programs. Convenient you forget about how libs said Gingrich wanted to starve children because he cut the increase in the school lunch programs...no didn't cut, just a cut in the increase. It was only when Republicans turned into raving socialist Democrats in 2000 that crap turned upside-down.

But thanks for your fiction, it was an interesting fairy-tale.

reply to wifi4milez

reply to Dogfather
You're post is amusing. Can we say the worst right wing take on "facts" known to man?

Hospital, roads, Schools, Medical Research (57 million tax payer money spent last year), Emergency services are SOCIALISM. Are you paying the FULL COST OUT OF POCKET. Merriam Webster defines Socialism AS:

"any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods"

Roads, Schools, Hospitals (public), Medical Research, and the LIKE ARE SOCIALISM. WE neither OWN THEM, they are PAID with COLLECTIVE MONEY, and EVERYONE'S tax dollars go to fund. You and I don't have a choice how the government distributes our cash. OUCH... WRONG o so WRONG.

So basically my above just shot down most of your post. Really has to hurt. Even the dictionary and common logic proves you wrong.

- Oliver North. Says a lot about Regan's Character. Matter of Fact Regan knew about it and used North as a fall boy. History again. I know, it doesn't like much.

- American War on Drugs was a good Movie. I'm not using it as a source. I use historical fact, which you know nothing about. As I said above, Regan was Complicit with North. All history points to him being fully aware of the events.

- Vietnam under Kennedy? Right wingers don't know history. Vietnam started in 1959. Kennedy wasn't in office then. You might check that thing called HISTORY. Before it was a war.. it was a Conflict. OUCH. As for the military running the war, that's how you get genocide. I guess you don't realize all the genocides that happen when the Military has complete control. Once again, you and history ARE NOT FRIENDS.

- Star wars Was a failure. I'm not going to argue with someone who gets facts from Fox News.

- I blame Regan as much as I blame Congress. Congress sent him the money he spent it. Bipartisan blame goes around now doesn't it. Then again, Bush Sr, Bush Jr all spent wildly and got us into massive debt.

As for Clinton, sorry bud, he BALANCED the budget. His spending was never wild and unchecked. Even when the Dems ran things. He didn't spend like those Republicans. Only difference between a Democrat and Republican anyway is Dems Tax, Republicans Borrow. Borrowing is far worse as it causes inflation, puts us into debt with Rogue nations (china, russia, etc) and causes prices to go up as the dollar is worth less.

O as for Socialism.. We seem to Socialize Farms and Big business plenty. Bush just handed companies 700 Billion but Farm, Teclo Subsidies, have long existed for generations. =). Free market my ass.

reply to Dogfather
Statistics coupled with facts and historical events. Actually, Truman was a VERY UNPOPULAR president. That's why he wasn't elected for a second term. Do you right wingers even read your posts, before typing? Really, it amazes me the nonsense that takes place.

As for WW2, it was a war on various fronts. There's by far a difference to starting a war with a known enemy (Japan) and assisting allies repel one (Germany) than let's say blaming Iraq (Bush) for crap that never was factual (Links to 9/11, Wmds, etc)... But hey, I know, facts + statistics = Hard to Comprehend. Stick to Fox News. You'll like their spin doctor truth better. Obviously, smart people take into account what was happening before.

If you had read my post, I said numbers Increased during Carters last years. HOWEVER, Carter's numbers were about the same when he left as when he entered. Regan's Stupidity hurt himself. Those long list of events only made things worse. The same for Bush now. How do you expect a good economy when you pander to big business and let trillions go out the door for your war on everyone. Hard to spur the economy, when there's no money left for stuff back at home.

reply to viperlmw

reply to jc100
Oh brother, the liberal revisionist history continues.

Hospitals aren't not socialism, and certainly a great many are private for profit enterprises. In any event, the services even the "public" ones provide are funded by private sources...your private insurance, out of pocket etc. To call hospitals "socialism" is a complete joke. Now you want to can any gov't enterprise socialism...and is simply incorrect and pure ignorance. By your definition the military is socialism.

And no, you embarrassing yourself doesn't hurt, except my belly ache from laughing at your nonsense so hysterically.

Again, you said Ollie was convicted of selling arms to Iran which was total B.S. He was convicted pretty much of 'obstruction' and those convictions VACATED.

Liberal spin movies are just that, spin. I suppose you get your "facts" about the JFK assassignation from Oliver Stone. The facts about CIA "drug running" are they have been involved in or "looked the other way in" for nearly 60 years now, through every administration including Reagan AND Clinton.

As for Vietnam, again you have ZERO clue as to what you're talking about. Kennedy in mid 1961 just a few months after he blundered the Bay of Pigs invasion KNEW that the Soviets were emboldened and would test US' Soviet containment policies, especially S.E. Asia. When Kennedy got into office there were 800 US military personnel in Vietnam. He increased that number to well over 16,000. Kennedy got us into the Vietnam war and there is simply ZERO disputing this fundamental truth.

SDI and now BMDO obviously wasn't a failure, the USSR is no more and interceptor missile technologies and missile launch detection technologies are maturing. To this day, Russians are FREAKING out over the capabilities of SDI in Europe. If it was the failure you and your lib buddies claim it to be, the Russians wouldn't be giving two squirts of piss over ABM batteries in Europe.

You can blame Reagan for it raining today, doesn't make it true. Reaganomics resulting in a huge growth spurt in the economy and increased revenues to the Treasury. The fact that Congress spend it all and more lies with them just as Congress gets credit for keeping the budget under control during the mid-1990's.

Clinton didn't balance shit, the Republican let Congress did. Clinton wanted to blow the budget out of the water but Congressional Republicans held the line on spending, letting the gov't shut down on more than one occasion. No amount of your wishful thinking is going to change history.

As for the bailout, damn right true fiscal Conservatives are pissed. Just look at how the vote went and why the first vote failed. And Republicans are why the auto industry isn't getting their bailout yet.

You must be a product of our failed public education system. Spend more time learning history and save your fiction for the Saturday Evening Post.

reply to jc100
You keep on spouting cherry picked statistics while ignoring the history behind what generated them. You are a hoot. I grew up during the 1980's and remember it well. You, unfortunately are a product of our failed liberal public education system and a victim of liberal indoctrination. No amount of fact, reason and history lessons is going to change your mind.

So you go right ahead revising history. I'm sure by the time the day is out you will have the South winning the Civil War as well.

reply to wifi4milez
You gotta love the liberal desperation in trying to rewrite the success of the 1980's. I guess they believe as usual, if they lie enough about it, it will become 'historical fact'.

reply to Dogfather
Public Hospitals receive PUBLIC TAX payer money. Do you not comprehend this facts. As a Matter of real facts, last year medical institutions received 57 million tax payer money to fund and research cures. Socialism bud. Argue as you might, Public Hospitals cannot refuse patients BECAUSE THEY ARE SOCIALIZED by Public dollars. Private hospitals are different. I never said Private. As for Roads, Schools, Emergency services, all the same. Try again..

Again, you said Ollie was convicted of selling arms to Iran which was total B.S. He was convicted pretty much of 'obstruction' and those convictions VACATED.

- Convicted means Guilty. Regan was aware of it but we don't convict and jail presidents. =). Someone has to take the fall when "Shit hits the fan". A man who is unaware of his workers actions is a man who does not deserve to lead. So have your pick. History says Regan knew full well. Take the other argument and assume he didnt, makes Regan Inept in the people he surrounded himself with.

- Cia drug running is something you can argue, but once again. You won't believe the testimony of people if it hit you in the head. No Conspiracy theories. It's pretty much known fact the CIA sold drugs to help the Sandistas. But hey, history and you are not friends.

- Vietnam started in 1959... PLEASE try to get your BULLSHIT right before typing inaccuracies. It was a conflict before a war. Then again look at the Korean war's failure. McArthur the Inept wanted to Fight North Korea, shelled into china, and got us bum rushed back to the parallel at which we started. Ah yes, Fighting communism for the failure since the 1950s.

- Star Wars was a failure. Maybe you don't understand that Russia has Europe and much of the world by the balls. THEY GIVE 80 percent of fuel to Europe. Let's see how cutting off that supply works for relations. Obviously russia is cash rich from oil, flexed it's might when Georgia bit off more than it could chew, and renewing cold war exercises in the Panama Canal. Doesn't seem like a Bankrupt and Poor nation to me? About the only thing we did was break up the USSR which is now a mess with all the "Stans" involved in terrorism. Never had that problem when Russia controlled them.

- Reaganomics resulted in stagflation, unemployment, and trillions in the hole. =). Call that growth?

Clinton Balanced Plenty. He could have spent as much as he wanted as Republicans didn't have veto majority and filbuster, but he didn't. Obviously, credit goes to him and Congress.

As for Subsidies. I don't see those Republicans BITCHING about the Farm Subsidies, Teclo Subsidies, and other crap we've handed out for years. It's only the stuff that makes news these "Small Government" shams bitch about when they are thrown in a corner. Obviously, the Patriot Act (Republican supported overwhelming), NSA wiretapping (Republican Supported Overwhelming), and big brother central weren't a problem. I guess these SHAMS of yours are no better than the rest of the lot. They give the money (our money) to their friends and want as much government as possible. Ask Bush. He's done a wonderful job at making this place Big Brother Paradise.

reply to wifi4milez