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reply to Dogfather

Re: And in a year they'll be wishing they hadn't

Ah yes, More right ring Falsehoods.

A) You enjoy socialism bud. You got hospitals in the U.S., Roads in the U.S., Schools, Emergency services, etc. Those are ALL SOCIALIZED. You pay a small portion of the taxes, along with everyone else. Those go into a collective pot, and are dished out to contracts to carry out said services. Yet, being you are NOT the only one building the roads, funding the schools, etc, you are socialized by the 300 million other tax payers. How about this. You pay for the FULL COST of teacher salaries. Say there are 50 teachers and 400 students. Instead of asking the city and other tax payers to foot the bill, the parents of those 400 students should pay the 5 or 6 million it would cost to run that school in a given year. Lets see 6 million / 400 = about 15,000 PER FAMILY in this instance. I like that idea. So get off your socialism soap box. Unless you are paying for everything out of pocket, America is as much socialized as ANY OTHER NATION. You right wingers have just stupefied you into believing you should see LITTLE RETURN on your money so big business can get all the subsidies.. Farming.. for one ay?

As for Soviet Expansion.. We had McCarthyism / Red Scare/ Vietnam etc,. You know how these all ended? In absolute failures. Obviously, the world's not going to end with socialism. It takes place here in America. See above. More right ring stupidity and propaganda.

Laughable is your response to the Iran Contra Crisis. Oliver North was Convicted SMART ONE of selling Arms to Iran. Do you read history, or is history something your type ignore?

Regarding the sandistas, the CIA admitted to selling drugs to fund them. Watch the Movie American War on Drugs or google anything regarding these events. Obviously, you're making up of history suits you better. To prove this point, we had no problems with RUTHLESS DICTACTORS like Noriega running the show. We just didn't like he ran a side business and stopped being our puppet. As long as Dictators like Batista, Noriega, etc do as they are told. We don't care what happens to the people. Just so long as our agenda is carried out. Once again, you FAIL.

Stars wars broke up the soviet union? No, an ARMS RACE BROKE UP the soviet union. Star wars was a BILLION DOLLAR FAILURE that didn't do anything but squander american tax payer dollars. Spin doctor much?

Trillion dollar debt? Guess you forgot who was running Congress - Just cause Congress Approves, doesn't mean the President has to spend it =). Nice try though. Regan had no qualms about using the money and sinking us into debt, as much as Congress .

Funny Enough, these fiscally conservative Republicans.. Regan, Bush Sr, Bush Jr have added to our debt. Clinton had it under control. Funny ay? Bush Jr alone has added 6 trillion out of the 10.

So now, has history and your civics teacher failed you much? Your take on anything regarding history and reality are flawed.

Laguna Hills, CA

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2 recommendations

Hospitals and roads aren't "socialism" by any stretch of the imagination (unless you found out about a universal heathcare program we don't know about or don't have to pay car registration or license fees). As for the red scare, you obviously have no clue what you're talking about. It was Kennedy that got us into Vietnam and in typical gov't fashion, politicians tried to run the war instead of letting the military do it. It's the same mess that prolonged the Iraq war...politics and poll-taking

Oliver North? You mean the guy Reagan FIRED? And you're the one in need of an education. He wasn't convicted for selling arms to Iran. He was convicted of accepting an illegal gratuity, destruction of documents and obstruction of a congressional inquiry and in 1990 all of those convictions were VACATED. Much like Martha Stewart, North wasn't busted for ANYTHING the Congress was trying to bust him for. He got temporarily busted for what he did during the Democrat run witch-hunt. It's the same which-hunt bullcrap that Republicans did to Clinton...busted him for perjury, not anything he actually did outside the courtroom.

Yep, I'm going to get my "facts" from "American War" instead of actual history. Of course you ignore 50 years of CIA involvement in this and act as if the CIA did it just this one time under direct instruction from Reagan. What a joke.

What to you think propelled the 1980's arms race genius? It was STAR WARS, and obviously you don't even know what Star Wars was. SDI was more than space based weapons. It was KE weapons, advanced missile launch detection systems, ABMs...it was a comprehensive program designed to make the increasing accurate Soviet heavy ballistic missiles obsolete and a lot of these programs are in use today under the BMDO. Without ballistic missiles and the survivability of the (at the time) new LGM-118A (MX) missiles, the Soviets were sunk so they spent and spent and spent on increasing their military capabilities through conventional as well as nuclear means in hopes of overwhelming SDI to hit Minuteman III and MX sites and it broke their backs.

Don't believe it? What went on in the late 1980's is EXACTLY what is going on now. The US is deploying minimal ballistic missile defenses in Europe and the Russians are spending a TON of cash to insure they can overwhelm it. SDI at maturity would have been BMD x 1000 and Gorbachev KNEW he didn't have the money to counter this. Their social infrastructure continued to collapse because of military spending in the face of SDI. So he for all intents and purposes surrendered and SDI was subsequently scaled back during the 1990's to the BMDO we see today.

Yeah, let's lay all the blame for Congressional spending on Reagan and let Congress off scott free.

As for Clinton...for the first two years with Clinton and a democratic congress, the budget was a disaster. Only after the Democrats got their asses kicked in 1994 and Republicans actually controlled both houses of Congress did the budget come under control. It's very convenient of you to forget about the "government shut downs" because Clinton wanted to spend a ton of money and Gingrich and the Republicans were saying no. Clinton and the liberal media demonized Gingrich for not wanting to blow up gov't with tons of new and expanding socialist programs. Convenient you forget about how libs said Gingrich wanted to starve children because he cut the increase in the school lunch programs...no didn't cut, just a cut in the increase. It was only when Republicans turned into raving socialist Democrats in 2000 that crap turned upside-down.

But thanks for your fiction, it was an interesting fairy-tale.


You're post is amusing. Can we say the worst right wing take on "facts" known to man?

Hospital, roads, Schools, Medical Research (57 million tax payer money spent last year), Emergency services are SOCIALISM. Are you paying the FULL COST OUT OF POCKET. Merriam Webster defines Socialism AS:

"any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods"

Roads, Schools, Hospitals (public), Medical Research, and the LIKE ARE SOCIALISM. WE neither OWN THEM, they are PAID with COLLECTIVE MONEY, and EVERYONE'S tax dollars go to fund. You and I don't have a choice how the government distributes our cash. OUCH... WRONG o so WRONG.

So basically my above just shot down most of your post. Really has to hurt. Even the dictionary and common logic proves you wrong.

- Oliver North. Says a lot about Regan's Character. Matter of Fact Regan knew about it and used North as a fall boy. History again. I know, it doesn't like much.

- American War on Drugs was a good Movie. I'm not using it as a source. I use historical fact, which you know nothing about. As I said above, Regan was Complicit with North. All history points to him being fully aware of the events.

- Vietnam under Kennedy? Right wingers don't know history. Vietnam started in 1959. Kennedy wasn't in office then. You might check that thing called HISTORY. Before it was a war.. it was a Conflict. OUCH. As for the military running the war, that's how you get genocide. I guess you don't realize all the genocides that happen when the Military has complete control. Once again, you and history ARE NOT FRIENDS.

- Star wars Was a failure. I'm not going to argue with someone who gets facts from Fox News.

- I blame Regan as much as I blame Congress. Congress sent him the money he spent it. Bipartisan blame goes around now doesn't it. Then again, Bush Sr, Bush Jr all spent wildly and got us into massive debt.

As for Clinton, sorry bud, he BALANCED the budget. His spending was never wild and unchecked. Even when the Dems ran things. He didn't spend like those Republicans. Only difference between a Democrat and Republican anyway is Dems Tax, Republicans Borrow. Borrowing is far worse as it causes inflation, puts us into debt with Rogue nations (china, russia, etc) and causes prices to go up as the dollar is worth less.

O as for Socialism.. We seem to Socialize Farms and Big business plenty. Bush just handed companies 700 Billion but Farm, Teclo Subsidies, have long existed for generations. =). Free market my ass.

Laguna Hills, CA
Oh brother, the liberal revisionist history continues.

Hospitals aren't not socialism, and certainly a great many are private for profit enterprises. In any event, the services even the "public" ones provide are funded by private sources...your private insurance, out of pocket etc. To call hospitals "socialism" is a complete joke. Now you want to can any gov't enterprise socialism...and is simply incorrect and pure ignorance. By your definition the military is socialism.

And no, you embarrassing yourself doesn't hurt, except my belly ache from laughing at your nonsense so hysterically.

Again, you said Ollie was convicted of selling arms to Iran which was total B.S. He was convicted pretty much of 'obstruction' and those convictions VACATED.

Liberal spin movies are just that, spin. I suppose you get your "facts" about the JFK assassignation from Oliver Stone. The facts about CIA "drug running" are they have been involved in or "looked the other way in" for nearly 60 years now, through every administration including Reagan AND Clinton.

As for Vietnam, again you have ZERO clue as to what you're talking about. Kennedy in mid 1961 just a few months after he blundered the Bay of Pigs invasion KNEW that the Soviets were emboldened and would test US' Soviet containment policies, especially S.E. Asia. When Kennedy got into office there were 800 US military personnel in Vietnam. He increased that number to well over 16,000. Kennedy got us into the Vietnam war and there is simply ZERO disputing this fundamental truth.

SDI and now BMDO obviously wasn't a failure, the USSR is no more and interceptor missile technologies and missile launch detection technologies are maturing. To this day, Russians are FREAKING out over the capabilities of SDI in Europe. If it was the failure you and your lib buddies claim it to be, the Russians wouldn't be giving two squirts of piss over ABM batteries in Europe.

You can blame Reagan for it raining today, doesn't make it true. Reaganomics resulting in a huge growth spurt in the economy and increased revenues to the Treasury. The fact that Congress spend it all and more lies with them just as Congress gets credit for keeping the budget under control during the mid-1990's.

Clinton didn't balance shit, the Republican let Congress did. Clinton wanted to blow the budget out of the water but Congressional Republicans held the line on spending, letting the gov't shut down on more than one occasion. No amount of your wishful thinking is going to change history.

As for the bailout, damn right true fiscal Conservatives are pissed. Just look at how the vote went and why the first vote failed. And Republicans are why the auto industry isn't getting their bailout yet.

You must be a product of our failed public education system. Spend more time learning history and save your fiction for the Saturday Evening Post.


Public Hospitals receive PUBLIC TAX payer money. Do you not comprehend this facts. As a Matter of real facts, last year medical institutions received 57 million tax payer money to fund and research cures. Socialism bud. Argue as you might, Public Hospitals cannot refuse patients BECAUSE THEY ARE SOCIALIZED by Public dollars. Private hospitals are different. I never said Private. As for Roads, Schools, Emergency services, all the same. Try again..

Again, you said Ollie was convicted of selling arms to Iran which was total B.S. He was convicted pretty much of 'obstruction' and those convictions VACATED.

- Convicted means Guilty. Regan was aware of it but we don't convict and jail presidents. =). Someone has to take the fall when "Shit hits the fan". A man who is unaware of his workers actions is a man who does not deserve to lead. So have your pick. History says Regan knew full well. Take the other argument and assume he didnt, makes Regan Inept in the people he surrounded himself with.

- Cia drug running is something you can argue, but once again. You won't believe the testimony of people if it hit you in the head. No Conspiracy theories. It's pretty much known fact the CIA sold drugs to help the Sandistas. But hey, history and you are not friends.

- Vietnam started in 1959... PLEASE try to get your BULLSHIT right before typing inaccuracies. It was a conflict before a war. Then again look at the Korean war's failure. McArthur the Inept wanted to Fight North Korea, shelled into china, and got us bum rushed back to the parallel at which we started. Ah yes, Fighting communism for the failure since the 1950s.

- Star Wars was a failure. Maybe you don't understand that Russia has Europe and much of the world by the balls. THEY GIVE 80 percent of fuel to Europe. Let's see how cutting off that supply works for relations. Obviously russia is cash rich from oil, flexed it's might when Georgia bit off more than it could chew, and renewing cold war exercises in the Panama Canal. Doesn't seem like a Bankrupt and Poor nation to me? About the only thing we did was break up the USSR which is now a mess with all the "Stans" involved in terrorism. Never had that problem when Russia controlled them.

- Reaganomics resulted in stagflation, unemployment, and trillions in the hole. =). Call that growth?

Clinton Balanced Plenty. He could have spent as much as he wanted as Republicans didn't have veto majority and filbuster, but he didn't. Obviously, credit goes to him and Congress.

As for Subsidies. I don't see those Republicans BITCHING about the Farm Subsidies, Teclo Subsidies, and other crap we've handed out for years. It's only the stuff that makes news these "Small Government" shams bitch about when they are thrown in a corner. Obviously, the Patriot Act (Republican supported overwhelming), NSA wiretapping (Republican Supported Overwhelming), and big brother central weren't a problem. I guess these SHAMS of yours are no better than the rest of the lot. They give the money (our money) to their friends and want as much government as possible. Ask Bush. He's done a wonderful job at making this place Big Brother Paradise.

Laguna Hills, CA

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Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981: the effect of Reaganomics
You are simply ignorant as to what Socialism is. The United States doesn't have socialized medicine by any definition. It doesn't matter if some hospitals receive some public funding. You run in there and try to get healthcare and not pay for it. The reason we get heath insurance is because the heathcare system, thankfully, isn't socialized.

Convicted doesn't mean crap when those convictions are VACATED. What part of VACATED did you not understand.

vacate |vkt|
verb [ trans. ]
Cancel or annul a judgment, contract, or charge.
CIA drug running for 60 years isn't up for debate...it's fact.

Vietnam...oh brother. Where are you getting your history? Cracker Jacks? Go look at the facts regarding OUR involvement in Vietnam. Prior to 1961 there were all of 800 "advisors" there. Kennedy in the face of an emboldened USSR (after the Bay of Pigs) increased that number to 16,000. You want to ignore this simple fact, you go right ahead. It certainly wouldn't be the first time you made crap up as you go or simply ignored reality because it doesn't fit your liberal agenda. Kennedy got us into the mess in Vietnam and no matter how hard you try to erase those pages from history, you will fail.

Yep, Star Wars is a failure which is why Mendelev is blowing a head gasket over ABM deployments in Europe. Russia doesn't have anyone by the balls, especially with oil dropping below $50/bbl. They can try to hold natural gas over someone's head but eastern Europe is hardly "the world".

From 1982-1989 when Reagan policies were in effect average GDP growth was 4.3% and for all Reagan fiscal years including the Carter-effect it was 3.5%. Yeah, that's growth unless you're using a different math than the rest of us. And he created nearly 20 million jobs.

Clinton didn't balance shit, Congress did.

Subsidies: You see plenty of Republicans bitching about all subsidies, just not the neo-con WHORES running Congress since 2000 who turned in to liberal big spenders. And Bush, the dumbass, never saw a spending bill he didn't like. None of these neo-con jack-holes are Republicans. Bush in his first 4 years blew gov't up more than Clinton managed to in 8. There should be no farm subsidies just as there should be no corporate income taxes since it just ends up being consumers paying for it.

With this I'm done giving you history lessons. I recommend you stop getting your "history lessons" from Oliver Stone.



1 edit
A) Hospitals are socialized. THEY ARE CALLED PUBLIC. You have Health insurance, but a PUBLIC / Tax Payer SUBSIDIZED hospital CANNOT turn you away. If you show up with a gun shot wound, a Public hospital by law HAS TO TREAT YOU. A private can turn you away. Not to mention, Social Security / Medicare / Medicaid are SOCIAL MEDICINE. When you turn 65, you get health care FUNDED by the government. I imagine you'll be turning it down right? Along with social security? Anyway, Public Hospitals / Colleges received 57 million to fund drugs. Don't take medicines. Tax payers SOCIALIZED their development SMART ONE.

B) Funny. A chart I found says the OPPOSITE.


And here;s another chart showing Income rose the fastest in the last 30 years under clinton than any other president.


So what's your point?? Obviously, you lack one. Regan sucked. Reganomics sucked. You've yet to prove a thing?

C) Cia did drug run. They have used this money to support wars such as the one in south America. Regan directly USED THIS MONEY to support the sandistas. It's proven. Oliver North used his inside knowledge to sell Weapons to Iran. Seems everyone was making a buck at the world's expense under Regan. What a man without character or morals.

D) Kennedy Defused the Cuban Missile Crisis Buddy. Might want to look up history regarding Cuba and the USSR and Kennedy's response. As for Vietnam, Johnson was the idiot that escalated it. LBJ how many of our kids have you killed today. Not kennedy. =). Kennedy was shot down long before it became a full blown war. Then again, we were involved there since 1959.

You B.S. Right wing nonsense might want to read the history of vietnam.


Obviously, I trust PBS more than I ever trust you. You are WRONG. Kennedy sent advisers =). Nice try on mixing up your crap. You shovel enough for one day.

D) Sure... And Clinton also didn't see record income creases, cut spending, etc... All Congress. President does nothing. Right? B.S.

E) Bullshit. Plenty of Republicans take home BILLIONS to their home states in Farm Subsidies and Corporate handouts. This has gone on for MANY MANY YEARS, long before 200. Don't give me that. They are less than disgusted when these big contracts go to their buddy's company. They been doing it for years and years as I said. Hell, and Ted Stevens 200 million bridge to nowhere, anyone? Palin kept the money and built a road to nowhere. =). Google that one. So yes.. don't play as if the Republicans are any different. Look at our national deficit. Since Regan got us in our first trillion, Bush Sr increased it by 3 or so more and Jr added 6 to it. Nice work ay? Ficscally sound my ass.

F) Republicans = Big Government and Big Brother. Don't see you refuting that one any either?

History? Do you know the word. Everything I found says you wouldn't know history if it came bottled up in that text book you never read.

Canadian, eh?

Valencia, CA
reply to Dogfather
As a Canadian living in Los Angeles, I sure wish that health care here was socialized.
The fact that there's a 2 tiered system screws the middle class.

Those that either don't have any money, or are here illegally (big problem here in Los Angeles county) use County hospitals, which I'm heavily taxed for, yet not allowed to use. County hospitals give free shuttles, car seats, free parking, free medication, etc.

Then there's the private system which will take money for everything and everyone, and kick you to the curb the second that they think you may actually cost them anything. Private hospitals milk the medical/medicare for the 'easy' money, then kick everyone out the door over to county for anything they don't want to deal with. It should be criminal.

Imperial, MO
reply to jc100
said by jc100:

Star wars was a BILLION DOLLAR FAILURE that didn't do anything but squander american tax payer dollars.
Your ignorance makes children cry.

I know someone in the weapons research industry. If you were interested in facts instead of what your professors told you, I could have that person list more than a hundred technological advances that were funded by the Brilliant Pebbles program (foolishly called Star Wars by the liberal press). But I know it would be a waste of time, you'd just deny and trivialize because you didn't hear it from a leftist source.
It's a trick. Get an axe. - Ash



4 edits
I do too. I actually have 2 family friends who worked on the stealth and it's development. Want a cookie? It failed. Star Wars failed MISERABLY. Not only didn't space based missiles work, we still don't have an effectively working shield. This technology is a ways away. All tests have failed. Also, I got a close friend who works for pentagon doing loads of contracting and retired as a colonel doing military logistics. I'm far from ignorant buddy.


Enjoy the New York Time Op Ed from 1990 on the subject.

As for now, we even admit that if we build this shield in Poland now, it's a LONG WAY away from being operational. The technology is far from efficient or reliable. It's merely an agreement to start and find an effective system. So yes, 27 years later, star wars IS A TRILLION PLUS DOLLAR FAILURE.

P.S. I'm aware of our "successful" test yesterday but also aware of the many failures that have followed and still follow. We are doing baby step tests and no where near close to shooting down missiles at random our in multiples. So launch 2 or 3 or 4 missiles and several will get by. Shield = future work in progress. Maybe 27 more years?


reply to Dogfather
I'm no economist but I'm not so sure that a chart showing that GDP and personal disposable income growth in the Reagan years highlights and boldfaces a story of success.

In 1982, the US personal savings rate was between 10-12% of personal income. This has steadily declined to essentially 0% today. Maybe I'm reaching here, but would the growth in both GDP and personal spending merely be a function of US consumers unloading their personal savings while simultaneously loading up balances on credit cards and other mechanisms of debt. In my opinion, today's recession has been a long time coming. I've read several articles in 2008 quoting that this was the first year in which the US personal savings rate dropped below zero. An even sadder statistic is that the savings rate spiked to 4-5% in the quarter that this year's stimulus checks were mailed. When an average check in the amount of $700 creates a spike of that magnitude, it speaks volumes about how close this country has walked up to the proverbial cliff.

In my opinion, the growth of the 80's credited to Reagan was just the beginning of a dangerous addiction to debt by the average Joe. Advances in computing technology at that time allowed easier and cheaper tracking of all this money, further allowing more and more people to attend the party. All this debt has been shuffled around, sliced, diced, and repackaged. This reminds me of the old joke of trying to pay your Visa with your Mastercard.

I truly hope the economy can recover but consumers won't be the ones to make that happen as they have in the past by simply spending more money. Conditions will probably worsen in 2009 and 2010 before they get better. Many fail to realize that some of the larger and highly publicized layoff announcements totalling several hundred thousand workers have yet to be executed. A majority will be completed by the end of 1st or 2nd quarter 2009.

I hope that I'm wrong, but I think that this time next year will be far worse than it is today. We may even be fooled by good economic statistics in the first half of 2009 as recently laid off workers get lump sum severances and many receive eagerly awaited 2008 tax refunds. Not to mention another potential stimulus check that the rumor mill has been circulating. What really scares me is Obama's committment to phase out our presence in Iraq in his first 18 month. I'm all for it but where exactly will all these troops go? Law states that previous employers must rehire military personel upon return. Some large companies even true up the pay difference between the private sector job they left and that in the military. Either way, the war has reduced corporate payrolls. If Obama brings the troops back to occupy slots at US bases currently filled by reservists pulled from the private sector, corporations are obligated to rehire them. That could spell even more layoffs in 2010 and beyond if current trends continue. Or, sadly, it could even sway a Democratic legislative and executive branch to keep the US war machine humming.

What a clustermess


Agreed. However, please try not to point out to many rationale statements in one post. It might confused them, and these types confuse easily. If not given a proper serving of freedom fries, war, unchecked spending, and big brother, their heads will pop. With that stated, Americans save less now than at any time. Disposable income really isn't a measure of anything truthfully. GDP and inflation are the true measure of quality of life. If your income, when adjusted for inflation is increasing, then you are doing "OK". Disposable income is merely how much can you sink yourself in debt. It doesn't mean you're making more. It just means you're maxing out more credit cards and borrowing.
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