gust334
join:2002-05-09
Gilbert, AZ
 ·Comcast
 ·AT&T Midwest
| why does it take so long?
I have a serious question for anybody who is or has worked for IllinoisBell/Ameritech/SBC/AT&T/Yahoo or any similar phone company, and really just those people. I don't want to start a flame war or get a lot of people outside the industry speculating about conspiracies, I just honestly want to know what the core reasons are, if any. Basically, my question is: why does a DSL reinstallation take so long?
Brief background: twice now the IL phone company has disconnected my DSL service due to some sort of mistake on their part in their computers. Both times after they acknowledged the disconnection was their mistake, they could not simply reconnect service. Each time it had to be installed as a new DSL installation, with at least a 4-day wait. The second time, after 4 days with no service they said it would take another 4 days. That DSL service was never re-established (although they continue to bill me for it two months later, that's a separate thread in AT&T Direct)
I understand how establishing brand-new DSL service can take time. The line may need to be conditioned, they may need to patch wires around, take off coils, check distances, all sorts of deep technical wire stuff, plus they need to send you a modem. And then you need to prepare your computers, etc.
I don't understand what takes the phone company so long to reestablish DSL service within the day after they accidentally turn it off. It isn't like anybody actually has to change anything or roll a truck. My DSL modem is still plugged into the same jack. The same wires run from the NID back to the RT or CO. Nothing physically gets disconnected and I still have dialtone. Turning DSL off after years of service happens instantly. Provisioning telephone features like call waiting on or off happens in a day. Why can't turning DSL back on be as fast? There must be some tangible reason. It is too uniform, consistent, and widely spread for me to believe it is simple incompetence.
In contrast, my cable TV provider turned on Internet in minutes while I was on the phone call with them (while on hold with AT&T.) I purchased a cable modem, plugged it in, and it lit up all green lights. Did I get the techs on a good day? I don't know.
The similarities are that both service providers have existing wires coming into my house. Both service providers push multiple services on those wires, and can turn them on and off independently. Both service providers require that you call them to make any changes/alterations/installations. Both service providers are attempting to compete in the same marketplaces, specifically TV, phone, and broadband internet. Both service providers have highly automated billing systems and a huge staff of employees across broad geographic areas.
So, what is it within the phone company that makes it take so long? Is there some sort of broadband federal red tape that phone companies have that cable companies don't? Is there some sort of check and balance or anti-fraud mechanism that incurs the delay at phone companies? Does anybody have first-hand knowledge why there is such disparity between these two service providers? |
|
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| said by gust334  :I have a serious question for anybody who is or has worked for IllinoisBell/Ameritech/SBC/AT&T/Yahoo ... Just an FYI: Yahoo! has nothing to do with telephone service, or provisioning of DSL lines. They are just a telco partner, providing web services to the telco DSL customer. All DSL is provisioned through AT&T, which used to be called, "SBC", before SBC bought AT&T; and, in your case, "Ameritech" (which was also bought by SBC, well before they bought AT&T). And Illinois Bell was the state operating arm of Ameritech (just as Pacific Bell was the state operating arm of Pacific Telesis, out here; which was also bought by SBC).
I don't understand what takes the phone company so long to reestablish DSL service within the day after they accidentally turn it off. It isn't like anybody actually has to change anything or roll a truck.
Actually, it very well could require a truck roll. When they disconnect your DSL service, they may actually pull a card from the DSLAM, or switch some wires at the DSLAM; whichever is the manner by which they physically disconnect your pair from the DSLAM. That has to be reconfigured when they set up service, again. And, if you are on an RT, that means they have to schedule a technician to go out to the RT (which is an unmanned switching center).
In contrast, my cable TV provider turned on Internet in minutes while I was on the phone call with them (while on hold with AT&T.) I purchased a cable modem, plugged it in, and it lit up all green lights.
Unlike DSL service, which requires physically connecting your pair at the DSLAM (or disconnecting it when turning off service), cable Internet is already on the coax in your neighborhood. They just have to activate your cable modem so it will request an IP from the CMTS. The physical link is always there, unlike DSL.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
|
mtmra70
Premium
join:2001-03-22
Portage, MI | Whats the point of PPPoE if they physically have to disconnect something? It should either be 'turn off account' thus block access, or 'physically doing something' but not use PPPoE. |
|
gust334
join:2002-05-09
Gilbert, AZ
·Comcast
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to NormanS
Thank you very much for an intelligent, on point response.
The disconnect occurred between midnight and 6am. I would not have expected that they'd shoot a truck out there that fast to pull a card from the DSLAM, or that they'd have a tech dispatched to an RT in the wee hours like that.
What I didn't know is that DSL requires physically connecting wires to add the service and physically disconnecting wires to remove the service. I assumed it could be switched on and off on the physical pair. Now it makes sense that they can't turn it back on quickly.
The difference between how quickly they work to turn it off vs. how quickly they turn it on is still unexplained. I would think they'd be much more interested in acquiring or keeping a customer and less worried about a speedy disconnect. |
|
idigg
@alcco.com | reply to gust334
Hi gust334,
Good thread, honestly. I would be pretty upset if AT&T disconnected my service, and took that long to restore.
My brother lives in Round Lake as well, and he has Uverse Internet. Are you unable to get it at your location? |
|
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| reply to mtmra70
said by mtmra70 :Whats the point of PPPoE if they physically have to disconnect something? It should either be 'turn off account' thus block access, or 'physically doing something' but not use PPPoE. Using PPPoE allows them to leverage existing PPP authentication systesms (RADIUS servers?), which are already in place for dial-up Internet services. PPPoE is not essential to DSL; in fact, ex-GTE areas of Verizon, and much of Embarq does not use PPPoE for DSL service.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
|
wayjac
Premium,MVM
join:2001-12-22
Indy
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to gust334
said by gust334 :Brief background: twice now the IL phone company has disconnected my DSL service due to some sort of mistake on their part in their computers. What kind of mistake is it?
I've worked two instances where the dsl was disconnected for nonpayment, both times I think the account just had the authentication blocked. The modems log had messages like Unknown User
After paying the bill authentication was allowed within 24 hours |
|
gust334
join:2002-05-09
Gilbert, AZ
·Comcast
·AT&T Midwest
| said by wayjac :said by gust334 :Brief background: twice now the IL phone company has disconnected my DSL service due to some sort of mistake on their part in their computers. What kind of mistake is it? I've worked two instances where the dsl was disconnected for nonpayment, both times I think the account just had the authentication blocked. The modems log had messages like Unknown User After paying the bill authentication was allowed within 24 hours Bills paid on time and in full. Authentication isn't the issue, both times they killed modem sync.
First time (2003) was when I transitioned from ISDN back to 2-line POTS, adding DSL to one of them. Ameritech installed the POTS lines with "temporary phone numbers" and then associated the 3Mbps DSL billing account with one of those temporary numbers. Then they transferred the ISDN SPIDs (e.g. my two phone numbers, one for each ISDN bearer channel) to the POTS lines and yanked the temporary numbers.... except, they never updated one of several DSL billing computers. (There are something like three or four systems and they were not all in sync with each other.) I had 3Mbps DSL service for five months, was getting billed and paying like clockwork, and then one day POOF the DSL service goes away because Ameritech recycled the "temporary phone numbers" for a new customer in another town. And they wouldn't restore my original 3Mbps service package because during those five months they tightened the distance limitations. Only the AT&T Direct forum on this site was able to resolve this mess, and it still took 26 days from beginning to end.
Second time was about eight weeks ago. I still had those two POTS lines and decided to get rid of the one that did NOT have 3Mbps DSL on it. The rep entered an order to disconnect the correct POTS line, but also entered an order to disconnect the 3Mbps DSL service from my remaining POTS line, and a third order to establish new 1.5Mbps DSL service on that same line. The latter two were without my consent or knowledge. Other AT&T reps have speculated out loud that he did so to bump his sales quota... but I don't know how or why it happened. All I know is that once again the new-service order was for the next lower speed grade and--per the original topic--they estimated four days to restore service, and the AT&T manager I spoke to assured me that there was "no power on earth" that could get my broadband internet restored any faster than that.
(I guess cable companies are otherworldly to AT&T.)
When they did not meet their own date, I called and they said the order was still pending and would take another four days to complete. At that point I told them I was fed up and did not believe they would ever re-establish service, and to cancel the pending order. I was given a cancellation confirmation number, which curiously nobody at AT&T can now find.
As of this month's bill AT&T are still billing me... get this... for both my original 3Mbps speed package, AND the 1.5Mbps speed package, both on the phone line they show was disconnected eight weeks ago. The AT&T rep I talked to today didn't see anything wrong that, she told me "the billing computer shows you presently have DSL service, so you're responsible for the balances even though the line is disconnected."
!!!
I've exhausted phone calls to AT&T and the purported direct support contact on their own web site. I'm hoping to get some resolution via AT&T Direct here, but my inquiry has languished for two days without a nibble. My past experience is that they're great at technical issues, but maybe they don't deal with billing matters. It sure would be nice to get any sort of response, though.
(I have really detailed notes for almost every call. I'm really tempted to publish all of their names and operator IDs here, as a public service to any other AT&T customers.) |
|
wayjac
Premium,MVM
join:2001-12-22
Indy | Wow, I have a clear picture of the problem now
Its been awhile but I've had billing issues resolved in the direct forum, I confident they can resolve your issues. |
|
OSUGoose
join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH
clubs:
·AT&T Midwest
 ·Cingular Wireless
·Verizon BroadbandA..
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to NormanS
AT&T actualy isent the "DSL part" its ASI, Ameritech Advanced Solutions Inc. They just get called SBC internet services or AT&T Internet Services curretnly. In reality your local bell company never "changed" names, they are simply operating under a diffrent brand, thus the disclaimer at&t adds "by our affilates".
While the actual wiring or rewiring only takes a day, asi has things on there end, ask David in direct to explain |
|
NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| My understanding of "Advanced Solutions, Inc." (ASI) is that it was a regulatory requirement to separate DSL provisioning from the telco side of things, which is no longer actually required (deregulation).
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum |
|
gust334
join:2002-05-09
Gilbert, AZ
·Comcast
·AT&T Midwest
1 edit | reply to wayjac
My AT&T Direct inquiry appears to have been read (twice) but nothing has been appended to it. edit-I'm happy that Direct has read it, and not surprised that it may take some time because they have a lot of CSRs/managers to interview to get the full AT&T side of things.
After about an hour of inane dialog with a CSR Tuesday, I did speak to a manager who slowly seemed to grasp what was going on. He was tentative about getting it fixed, but did say he would authorize a credit for various DSL charges levied since the service was terminated. He told me that there was still one computer showing me having DSL service, and there was typing noise in the background, and then he said OK, that's fixed.
At that point, I went to the AT&T website and entered my BTN to the DSL service finder and it reported I already had DSL on that number and it helpfully offered to upgrade my service. I relayed that to the manager and he said oh, that's another system where we have to fix it, but I have to go back to my desk to do that. He promised to call back when that was fixed, but there has been no call.
As I type this Thursday, the AT&T service locator still shows I have DSL on that line and still helpfully offers to upgrade my service, thus I have little faith that the most recent manager did anything useful. edit-That would be consistent with my previous two managerial attempts for this same billing issue. |
|
wayjac
Premium,MVM
join:2001-12-22
Indy
·AT&T Midwest
| said by gust334 :My AT&T Direct inquiry appears to have been read (twice) but nothing has been appended to it. I would like to think that if the problem can't be worked via the direct forum you will get a reply that will say just that.....give it more time |
|
tperl
join:2005-11-15
Blacklick, OH | reply to gust334
try contacting your state's public utilities commission or equivalent to file a complaint, or at least informing the direct forum of your intention to do so. Helped me out greatly last year in resolving a billing error. |
|
gust334
join:2002-05-09
Gilbert, AZ
·Comcast
·AT&T Midwest
| Thanks for the suggestion, but I'd rather not engage in threats quite yet. I'm allowing Direct the opportunity to research and resolve the issue first. They have made two separate response/inquiries so far and I am optimistic they will succeed. The simple fact they have responded is lifting my spirits greatly.
THe billing issue will work itself out one way or another. I'd really like to get this thread back on-topic.
NormanS implied that my errant DSL disconnect would have required someone in my CO (I am pretty sure I was not on a RT) to pull a card or make some other wiring change within hours of the disconnect order.
Why is that person only able to disconnect service so quickly? What is the technical reason that pulling a card from slot 1701 in a rack at midnight is easier than putting the same card back into the same slot later that same day? |
|
psx_defector
join:2001-06-09
Allen, TX
| When you order DSL, to ease the hands on aspect of it, it's run through the machine to get things done. You start with the sales group, which places the order. Once the order is in, it's shot over to the ASI groups to start their process. The vast majority of this is automated. They have to make sure there are ports available on the DSLAM/RT, loop length is good, available PVC ports, etc. They sign off on the order, and it's then shot over to your ISP, in this case ATTIS. They begin provisioning your IP services.
The reason why they can disconnect faster than install is simple logistics. Don't have to check the pair, don't have to verify anything, and it only has to send a D order to the ISP to complete the disconnect. Just pull the config out of the DSLAM, and complete the ticket with ASI. About 15 minutes worth of work.
You can't just "turn it back on" because once the system disconnects it, that loop and port are now free and clear for someone to do whatever with it. So if you disconnect on a Tuesday morning, that port/loop will show available immediately and someone can take that and turn up a new install on Tuesday afternoon. Hence, you go back into the machine to make sure that you will have service.
That being said, someone could walk the order through manually and have it turned back up same day in some cases. Provided the DSLAM isn't full, and you got a 50/50 chance that it is, then it's just a matter of getting someone out there to flip a few cables. Executive Escalations in San Antonio, err, Dallas, would be helpful in this situation. Or someone who knows what to do anywhere else.
Seeing your story, I'm not surprised by the ISDN issue. Temp numbers cause all kinds of fun things on the back end for DSL. Why or how someone was able to put a D order and an N order on the SAME LINE on the SAME CALL is very strange. CPSOS wouldn't let you do that, not when I did stuff. You definitely can't add a new service with a pending D order in CRM. I think someone might have just been feeding you a line on that. Just like walking through a new order, doing something like this would require pretty good contacts to pull off, just for a bit of commission. Although I doubt it, it's possible. How you are getting double billed is strange though. Check your bill and look for a line called HSI No. If they are the same, then someone done did something very strange. |
|
gust334
join:2002-05-09
Gilbert, AZ
·Comcast
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to gust334
FWIW, Direct tells me that DSL sync has been restored on my remaining phone line and I can re-establish DSL service by simply re-registering. Now I'm stuck waiting to find out if the overbilling the last two months is resolved yet. The last thing I want to do is re-establish service now and then find AT&T continuing to bill me for the two months of non-service. |
|
Gflash
@bellsouth.net
| Disconnects are automated and the card can be turned off by software. When you cancel adsl all records are lost of where your line was working.The computer makes your old adsl port available for new service. If there was a previous demand for service the computer fills it with your old port. It is on a first come ,first served basis - strictly fair.When you reestablish service the computer has to look for another port- if there is one.Then a technician has to "rebuild "your line to a new port. I suggest you keep your line and use it . Billing problems are easier to resolve than than changes to the line .Reestablishing the service provides proof there was a problem. |
|
Gflash
@bellsouth.net
| reply to gust334
P.S.- If the main number that was canceled (the entire order was built on it)then the order for line two and the Adsl cannot exist . They are linked to it and are cancelled with it. You could have canceled Adsl or line 2 or both -but once the mainline is cancelled it all goes at once. |
|
