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jonquiljo5
Premium
join:2003-10-25
Novato, CA
 ·Verizon Online DSL
 ·Verizon BroadbandA..
| reply to BriGuy89
Re: Verizon DSL modems: Help me choose!
said by BriGuy89  :Also, VZ policies seemingly are intentionally built to blame the user when any issue is encountered (often performance-related) that has not already been captured/identified by VZ's network management systems. That seems to be a problem with all of the companies these days. Outsourced support that points fingers elsewhere and local people so overwhelmed that they just pass the issue off to someone else.
I really wish there would be provider companies that charge what it takes to get good service and then actually provide it - rather than make everything on the cheap and give you nothing. As the saying goes, "you get what you pay for".
In my experience Verizon has been better than most. I had Covad (AT&T Worldnet) for quite a while, and its horrible that way. All they did was threaten you will all the service charges you would be liable for if you had them do something and they didn't find themselves at fault.
Now I had really bad wiring in this house - even though the house was built in 2000 and is supposedly upscale. I really wish there was an easy way to look at home wiring faults, especially when the problems seem to be intermittent. Not everyone can take a laptop or a modem and hook it to the outside junction box. Of course most of the people here know what to do, but most people out there do not. It doesn't help when hostile tech support tries to blame you for everything - its only natural to be defensive and look the other way. | |
BriGuy89
Let's Go Orange
join:2001-05-08
Yorktown Heights, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to aceOfWands
said by aceOfWands :A CO issue like this should affect a ton of people besides just my father-in-law, right? If so, then how come no one else complained? A problem like this can be localized to just a few people, over time, as users get moved from the bad circuit/connection to a new, better one -- but the original problem doesn't get fixed because the circuit is not dead, just severely compromised or misconfigured.
Some users get beaten into submission by VZ tech support, eventually (mistakenly) agreeing to the brainwashing that sub-dialup downstream speeds are the result of problems with their local clients, and not the result of network equipment in the CO.
And others simply get fed up with VZ and its failure to take accountability for its own equipment -- and jump to alternatives like cable for their broadband needs.
Combined, that's how a problem like this can stagnate (even though it does not make any sense, from the end-user perspective).
Also, VZ policies seemingly are intentionally built to blame the user when any issue is encountered (often performance-related) that has not already been captured/identified by VZ's network management systems. Until some magical threshold of number of complaining users, open tickets, President's Office messages, technicians dispatched, and technicians reporting back that the problem is not with the user, VZ by default blames the user and forces him /her to prove otherwise. | |
aceOfWands
join:2006-12-08
New York, NY
| reply to BriGuy89
OK guys: the issue appears to be resolved.
I just got off the horn with the first intelligent tech from VZ that I have yet dealt with, a guy named Jim, who came out today to my father-in-law's apt. (Last Friday another tech from VZ also came out to start the current round of service; not sure if it was Jim or someone else, but that guy was also apparently good. So, if you are a VZ manager reading this thread, give that guy credit too.)
He said that the issue was with the "split bank" in the local central office, which sounds right to me. He diagnosed this using the tracert command to a 3rd party website. I think that the previous tech merely did a simplistic tracert to just the CO (which looks fine).
The equipment may take up to 48 hours to arrive and be installed, but I am sure that it will do the trick.
Here is what I do not understand: a CO issue like this should affect a ton of people besides just my father-in-law, right? If so, then how come no one else complained?
To all you guys who helped me with this issue: many thanks, and may you have a wonderful New Year, God bless. | |
BriGuy89
Let's Go Orange
join:2001-05-08
Yorktown Heights, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to aceOfWands
said by aceOfWands By the way, I brought my laptop (which is known to get high speed from my cable modem at my apt) to my father-in-law's yesterday, and it too saw slow downloads, so as far as I am concerned this essentially proves that the problem is not his computer.[/BQUOTE :Perfect. Make sure VZ tech support logs and understands that you have tested this connection on with a second PC, and that the speed results are the same. Also make sure that they note that you've already tried swapping out phone and Ethernet cabling and the DSL filter as well, so that those points can be eliminated from the VZ tech support stonewalling arsenal. The sooner you can get VZ tech support to admit it is not a PC configuration, modem, or cabling issue, the sooner someone at VZ will acknowledge it as a network-related issue (likely provisioned circuit/connection at the regional CO). Good luck with things. As Smith6612 said, vacation schedules and such may postpone resolution until after the beginning of the new year, however. You're on the right path, and fairly close -- you've separately swapped out the modem and PC, and the DSL signal is coming through clean and as provisioned from the local CO, yet the anemic downstream speeds are the same. The only other variable remaining is how VZ is connecting your FiL's downstream Internet connection once the request goes from the local CO out through the VZ network to the Internet. As compelling a case as it seems right now, be prepared that until a (real) tech (hopefully not the flake mentioned earlier in the thread) comes out and verifies everything you've already checked and reported, you likely may not get VZ tech support to initiate anything to the network group to investigate this connection. Crazy as it sounds, VZ would seemingly rather invest personnel time and salaries on scheduling a tech, rolling him/her to your FiL's, verifying everything you've reported, and then telling the network team to get its rear in gear on this issue. Why no one at VZ has developed an end-user proficiency exam -- that can basically VZ certify one as a "highly skilled end user" (or some other catch phrase) that allows you to basically not have to have your information revalidated by a tech -- is beyond me. The costs of the "old-way" current processes are astronomically when multiplied across the number of this type of issue and the VZ subscriber base. If I were a VZ shareholder, I'd be tearing my hair out at this kind of unnecessary waste. | |
Smith6612
Premium
join:2008-02-01
united state | reply to aceOfWands
The Verizon Direct people are most likely off for the holidays. When businesses begin to open again is when they'll start replying. Hang on and they should be able to fix your father-in-law up. | |
aceOfWands
join:2006-12-08
New York, NY
| reply to BriGuy89
said by BriGuy89 :No one has checked the outbound Internet connection and the circuit to which the DSL line is provisioned.... Since DSL-to-CO is coming up clean (as expected), it's the next hop (or two) that is in question. Exactly.
said by BriGuy89 :...If you get even an ounce of push back, contact the Verizon President's office Thanks for the tip.
I am trying the Verizon direct support channel right now; no one has responded yet besides asking for some preliminary information. I assume this tardiness is because of the holidays, which I do not have a problem with at this point. But if they do not get the ball rolling by early next week, it is time to escalate.
By the way, I brought my laptop (which is known to get high speed from my cable modem at my apt) to my father-in-law's yesterday, and it too saw slow downloads, so as far as I am concerned this essentially proves that the problem is not his computer. | |
BriGuy89
Let's Go Orange
join:2001-05-08
Yorktown Heights, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to aceOfWands
No one has checked the outbound Internet connection and the circuit to which the DSL line is provisioned. Any local tech can't see beyond the DSL line connecting to the CO. Since DSL-to-CO is coming up clean (as expected), it's the next hop (or two) that is in question.
Ask to escalate the ticket to the network team, and cross your fingers. If you get even an ounce of push back, contact the Verizon President's office (search the forum for the contact info; I don't know it offhand).
With VZ President's office, a person will actually take ownership and provide you with his/her contact info, and that person will coordinate the teams as needed to get the issue resolved. It's not a path to abuse for minor-league issues, but as a path of last resort, it has worked well for me. | |
aceOfWands
join:2006-12-08
New York, NY
| reply to JohnA
said by JohnA :The speed you see in the modem is the provisioned speed, that the account is set to. Has nothing to do with what's being delivered, as/per speed tests. Thanks for confirming my understanding.
I cannot believe that their tech is so uninformed... | |
JohnA
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Pittsburgh, PA | reply to aceOfWands
The speed you see in the modem is the provisioned speed, that the account is set to. Has nothing to do with what's being delivered, as/per speed tests. | |
aceOfWands
join:2006-12-08
New York, NY
| reply to Bytebender
said by Bytebender :But first I might try getting him to post in the Verizon-Direct Forum here, those people are usually quite good too. Thanks for pointing that forum out: I did not realize that it had actual Verizon people monitoring it. I am going to give these people one last chance to fix the issue before I tell my father-in-law to switch to cable.
One more thing: I spoke to the tech again last night: he again insisted that when you goto the router's web admin page (192.168.1.1) that the numbers that you read (which I think is typically something like 3360/768) is the modem's actual speed. I cannot see how it could be anything other than the service's theoretical speed, because it is not like the modem is likely to be doing some kind of speed test. But he insists that if that number is good, then my father-in-law is getting the service that he is paying for and that there is nothing else he can do.
Does anyone know what exactly that speed number on the modem's web admin page actually reflects? Am I right or is the tech?
He did claim that if you unplug the cable then that web admin speed drops to zero. I believe that. But I would be shocked if when connected that the modem is doing an actual speed test.
I had my father-in-law do thrice daily speed tests (dslreports and verizon's) as mentioned earlier, and once he measured a download of almost 2000 Kbps, but all the other times it was 400 and typically around 200. Furthermore, I had him do qualitative YouTube playback smoothness tests, and those were almost always choppy, which correlates with the speed tests.
Verizon is really starting to piss me off. | |
Bytebender
Bytebender
Premium
join:2008-02-12
Canada
| reply to aceOfWands
What Jodokast96 said, have the father-in-law tell them that he would like to cancel the service and that it is for technical reasons. When they ask, if he agrees to speak with tech support to resolve the issue, he'll get to a "level 3 retention agent", who should do what it takes to resolve the issue.
But first I might try getting him to post in the Verizon-Direct Forum here, those people are usually quite good too.
--
reboot, reset, reconfigure, then recycle. | |
aceOfWands
join:2006-12-08
New York, NY | reply to Jodokast96
I hear ya: I told my father-in-law to consider moving to cable as well. I would like to try resolving this first, however... | |
Jodokast96
R.I.P Bassman442
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to aceOfWands
Guy's full of it. Was the problem something he can fix? Probably not, but he didn't once bother to try to get the Network guys involved, did he? Poor service on this guys part. At this point it's time to start asking yourself if it's worth the hassle to stay or switch to cable. I'd probably just call Retentions to cancel and tell them the reason is because they are completely unable to provide the service specified and that you will NOT pay an ETF. Chances are that will get them to do something, but if not, good riddance. | |
aceOfWands
join:2006-12-08
New York, NY
| reply to aceOfWands
And here is today's status: the same tech came out, but this time for only a short visit. My father-in-law said that he brought up the westell web admin page, liked the numbers that he saw (see my question above) and also tried downloading some videos from YouTube, all of which seemed to play smoothly. I do not think that he bothered to check the cabinet downstairs, nor did he or my father-in-law run any speed tests. He then left.
As noted above, I myself have seen downloads of ~2800 Kbps some of the time, its just that that speed is not consistent. Indeed, my father-in-law thought to run these later on this afternoon, and this time he could not even get the test to complete some of the times; other times it showed abysmal download speeds (e.g. 4 Kbps). So the issue is still unresolved.
I told my father-in-law to do this: three times a day, run both speed tests, as well as do some qualitative web surfing, like YouTube streaming, and document every measurement for the next couple of days. If the issue persists (I bet it will), then we will have concrete evidence with which to confront Verizon.
Oh, one other thing that the tech asked my father-in-law was whether or not anyone else was tapping in on his phone lines (e.g. hoping to get dsl service for free). My father-in-law certainly is not doing this. But could some nefarious neighbor do something like goto the apt's wiring cabinet and splice in their connection alongside my father-in-law's? I would have thought that Verizon could tell if multiple dsl modems are present on the same line and cut you off if you do that.
Does anyone have any advice to give me on how to get this issue resolved, beyond what we already plan to do (keep a speed test diary)? | |
aceOfWands
join:2006-12-08
New York, NY
| reply to aceOfWands
For anyone following this thread, here is yesterday's status update.
A verizon tech came out to my father-in-law's apt yesterday. He measured the line quality from the CO to the apt (with a COLT? device) and said that the line quality was great.
He was then going to leave, and claim that the slow speeds must be due to my father-in-law's modem or computer. But fortunately, my father-in-law had him call me. I was on the phone with either him or my father-in-law for the next 30-60 minutes as the stuff that I next describe took place.
When I initially spoke with him, he wanted to blame the power supply that I was using on the new Westell 7500 as the cause of our slow download speeds. (I bought the unit off of eBay for $25, and it lacked an AC-->12 V DC power supply, so I just took a spare one that I had lying around my apt.) He claimed that Westell's are extremely finicky about the power supply used, and will only work right if you have the exact correct power supply for them.
I suppose that anything is possible, but I was not buying the power supply argument. Does anyone here know if it is valid or not? I told him that if it was to blame, then why do the speed tests show my father-in-law getting decent upload speeds (typically 500-550 Kbps)? Why are only his download speeds so bad (typically only 40-200 Kbps)? Why did we see the exact same phenomena with the old modem? This argument also rules out other factors, like the wiring, or the computer.
He next pointed out that maybe the phones (but not the westell) in the apt need filters; I believe that my father-in-law found that his one phone already does have a filter, so this is likely not an issue.
When I tried to get him to consider the results of the speed tests (dslreports as well as verizon's) he tried saying that these speed tests are somewhat BS. I agree that they are imperfect, possibly suffering from network and server congestion, but I still think that they are reasonably accurate. At some point, I eventually got my father-in-law to run the speed tests; when he saw the low download speeds, I think that he started to realize that there might be an issue.
He next remembered that he had a spare westell 7500 in his truck, so he went there and brought it (or just its power supply?) back. This made no difference in improving the download speed.
He also guessed that maybe the wiring (phone wire and ethernet cable) might be bad, so he used the wiring supplied with the 7500. This did nothing to improve downloads as well.
Not too long after, he left for the day because he wanted to check out the apt's wiring cabinet in the basement, but the apt's super had already left for the day. So he said that he would come back the next morning. Altho the problem was not solved, I felt at least that he finally recognized that there was a problem.
During the time that he was there yesterday, he said some things that I want your opinion on:
1) he did some sort of ping test to his office that he claimed indicated that the dsl service was running at the rated speed. I asked him exactly what this test did, since the ping command line program that I am familiar with would indicate connectivity, and latency, but does not actually measure bandwidth. I never got a satisfactory answer from him, altho he did say that the test took over a minute to complete, so maybe it is a different program than the tool that I am familiar with. Anyone know what he was doing?
2) he claimed that if you open the westell's web admin interface (point a browser to »192.168.1.1) then the speed numbers that you see on that page (3360/768, I think he said) are what your dsl service really is achieving. I thought that this claim was ludicrous, that those numbers are probably just telling you what the rated service is, but not what it actually is delivering at that moment--how could the westell know what the speeed actually is unless it is doing a speed test, which it should not be doing by itself. He did not seem to believe my point, but wanted to close the case based on the numbers there alone. I was insistent on having him see what real speed tests say.
3) I pointed out to him some of the feedback that you guys have already given me on this thread, namely, that it looks like it is a verizon CO issue. He did not want to consider this further, since he said that other people would have complained, which is somewhat valid, but not conclusive. | |
irbrenda
join:2000-11-17
Staten Island, NY | reply to aceOfWands
Re: That old "dumb" Bell Atlantic modem.....
has been running successfully for me for the past 8 years and I refuse to give it up. Flawless, and I use a Linksys Pre-N router with it. Hate to give up what works. However, I will be caving in to FIOS very soon. | |
Smith6612
Premium
join:2008-02-01
united state
 ·Dish Network
·Verizon Online DSL
·FrontierNet Intern..
1 edit | reply to aceOfWands
Re: Verizon DSL modems: Help me choose!
Try using another speed test site other than the Verizon one. That's known to be unreliable. Here, we suggest the ones at this site or speedtest.net, myspeed.visualware.net or speakeasy.net/speedtest as those are typically reliable.
If you still see problems on his end, you could try the Verizon Direct forum on this site. You are a member so you can get them to help look at the line, and they're pretty good at this as well. However a line quality test will need to be performed as well, when the line is working bad. But since you mentioned the activation taking ages to do itself, a line quality test being posted here would work out, and since it's most likely going to be bad, I'd go for the Verizon Direct forum. | |
aceOfWands
join:2006-12-08
New York, NY
| reply to BriGuy89
BriGuy89: thanks for your responses.
Here is an update of the situation: I bought a new Westell 7500 modem/router off of eBay (got it for $25, free shipping) even tho I knew from you guys that the modem was likely not the culprit (I wanted a modern unit, including the router capabilities as well).
Went over to my father-in-laws last night to install the modem; it powered up fine, and was able to use its web interface to configure it.
I also backed up my father-in-laws data, and then reinstalled his operating system (actually, his entire C partition; the guy who initially configured his computer nicely used some software from Adonis to record a snapshot of his C partition when that guy installed his OS and some programs a year ago). I did this to make sure that his computer was pristine and that it could not be a factor with the networking.
Because it was a new modem, Verizon wanted it activated. Downloading their activation SW over the network was agonizingly slow (the CD I order 9+ days has still not arrived); took 2 hours? Finally downloaded it and started it; towards the end of the installation, even tho I checked none of the extra software boxes since I need none of their crap, the stupid installation program still wanted to download more stuff; after another 2 hours or so of waiting for it to download, I gave up and killed the installation procedure.
But I guess the activation stage of the installation was finished, because I was at this point able to web browse without getting redirected to the Verizon activation website. The Verizon speed test page could not successfully download in full and I was never able to run it last night. Oddly enough, the good java one from this website DID download, and I measured 4 Kbps down, 500+ up, about the same as before.
Now, for about 2 hours of the above process, I was actually on the phone with some lady from Verizon tech support. She knew full well from how long the activation procedure was taking that something was amiss. She eventually relented and agreed to transfer me to a "network specialist". My gosh, she should have known to do this about 100 minutes before--do they get bonuses for not transfering you to their better tech people? During the call transfer process, my phone line suddenly went dead; I had been disconnected. I called back, and waded thru their agonizing voicemail, only to find that their offices were now closed. I fit to be tied!
I ended up spending the night at my in-laws. Was awoken this morning by a call back from Verizon, asking if my problem was not resolved. I told them no way, and outlined why the problem must be at their end. The lady said that she would escalate the issue to higher level tech support and that we should hear back in 24 hours.
After we hung up, I reran the speed tests. Having done zero additional configuration, I found that the Verizon speed test web page would at least now load in full, however, it reported 0 Kbps down and up which is clearly wrong. The java speed test on this website gave completely inconsistent results: one run it would measure about 2800 Kbps down (which is about what it ought to be) while the next run might find 13X slower downloads. Uploads were always about 500 Kbps. So, overnight, for some magical reason, the download speeds have improved to the point of being reasonable, altho the inconsistency disturbs me.
Will wait and see what their networking specialists get back to me and say. Will keep you boys informed... | |
BriGuy89
Let's Go Orange
join:2001-05-08
Yorktown Heights, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to aceOfWands
said by aceOfWands :By the way, as mentioned in my original post, the Verizon tech girl did say that she performed a "line check" and could verify that it was behaving properly. Do you have any idea what this means? Was she doing some sort of ping or speed test from the CO to our DSL modem? Or was she merely doing some test into our building? It's just a check of connectivity from the CO to the provisioned line's end point (your father-in-law's DSL modem). Has nothing to do with performance; only checks where a DSL signal can go up and down stream. So even at 18K, it checks out as "fine" on VZ's end because this test only checks whether a connection exists, and not whether it is a reasonable, properly provisioned signal.
Problem is if the issue is related to another hop -- if it's your pass from the local CO to the regional CO, or from the regional CO to the Internet (which was always the issue when my DSL downstream service was serevely impacted by the White Plains, NY CO crew), a line test will never show that problem.
Are other DSL users in the area reporting similar problems? If not, hardware is still possible but my gut -- primarily because upstream speeds aren't affected at all -- says it's poorly provisioned circuit on the router that tries to send outbound traffic to the Internet. Hardware (modem) failure would more likely indicate a complete loss or impact on all types of connectivity, not just downstream only. | |
BriGuy89
Let's Go Orange
join:2001-05-08
Yorktown Heights, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to aceOfWands
said by aceOfWands :I just did a search on all your postings, and I think that I found a few which might be relevant to me. You should search on the 914 area code service interruptions from March and April of this year -- that's the most recent example that I (and almost everyone else using VZ DSL in the 914 and 845 area codes) experienced. It was always the fault of the CO and core network team's abysmal change and configuration management procedures. | |
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