Topic 'Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds?' in forum '' - dslreports.com http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21590264 en Sat, 11 Feb 2012 10:22:08 EDT Sat, 11 Feb 2012 10:22:08 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21599602
In fact, it could be construed that they are attacking bittorrent usage to make the netflix streaming experience better for the rest of their customers....although I doubt that as well ;-)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21599602 Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:54:09 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21599051 viable competition or using your dominant market position to crush delivery doesn't count?

Just because you don't think Vuze is a legitimate competitor (I could be wrong, but I'm guessing you're playing dumb but work at a carrier), doesn't magically make it not a competitor. Caps and P2P protocol throttling aren't about killing the competitors of today, they're about killing the competitors of tomorrow.

BitTorrent certainly isn't a current serious competitor for live TV, nor is it currently eating away at any decent share (online video entire ate about 2% of all TV ad revenue in '07), but it is a competitor all the same. Should we get semantic, BitTorrent piracy is a competitor as well, as it sets market expectation (which unfortunately for industry folks is free, and easy).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21599051 Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:27:59 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21598919 I didn't know it was that hard to google in this day and ageMe thinks you're talking to an industry insider who's pretending to be "new" to this whole idea...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21598919 Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:05:24 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21596913
Cuban is on record regarding Bittorrent? I did not state that the INTERNET is not viable competetion...strictly Bittorrent. Show me some data proving otherwise.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21596913 Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:03:22 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21596080 Calling bittorrent "competition" to cable tv as a video distribution method is ridiculous.Oh, glad we've got that straightened out then, Mark Cuban.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21596080 Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:40:35 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21592903 said by devnuller:

That's the FUD talking. I use Internet video everyday with Fancast, Hulu,, Netflix kids with online games, YouTube and Slingbox. Never come close to caps. The world will end with CAPs is just plain rhetoric.

CAP usage is better explained in this editorial by Justin(the owner of DSLReports).
I agree with much of what he said but it does miss one important fact.
In the states were there are many different providers this is quite likely to happen but thats just the states.
In say Canada where we truly only have two providers this isn't likely to happen.
They work together rather then compete to keep ripping off the buyers and it had remained this way from the beginning.

For a health market with fair usage to emerge competition is needed and using Canada as a example this simply does not exist in a lot of places.
Tell this changes people wont get a fair deal.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21592903 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:03:10 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21592751 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21592751 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:38:13 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21592714 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21592714 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:31:01 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21592695 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21592695 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:28:15 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21592631 said by Karl Bode:

No, but Virgin is going to start targeting BitTorrent specifically. Do you see any anti-competitive implications of a cable TV company suddenly throttling a protocol that delivers competition via peer to peer networks?Video competition from who? Vuze? BitTorrent is out of the video distribution game, and the major players in online video don't use P2P for distribution.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21592631 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:15:50 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21592604 said by swhitney2003:

I'm going to assume sarcasm here.
Definitely. I was preempting all the nonsense that was sure to follow. (and perhaps has outside of this thread)

I don't think you should be able to max out your line 24x7x365 and not expect some type of throttling. However, I also feel that every US Corporation instituting caps (excluding Comcast) has has set them way to low and should raise their caps in line with Comcast's 250GB, as well as lower their per GB overage charges.

If it were my decision, I would like to see a monthly usage cap, but with no throttling done until that cap is reached and no per Mbps limit either. Give me a fire hose and lower the water pressure after I've used my 250 gallons. I can understand why removing the per Mbps cap isn't really possible with the current systems in use and would probably wind up being an especially bad idea -- I can see Little Johnny Pirate deciding to save his 250GB for December 31st so he can utilize 250GB on December 31st and another 250GB on January 1st, thus crippling his node for 48 hours.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21592604 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:10:09 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21592527 said by Karl Bode:

No, but Virgin is going to start targeting BitTorrent specifically. Do you see any anti-competitive implications of a cable TV company suddenly throttling a protocol that delivers competition via peer to peer networks?
Clearly, you're mistaken. There's absolutely no reason for a corporation to cripple an up-and-coming competitor. Why, I don't believe that has ever happened in this history of our great company, errr, country.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21592527 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:55:50 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21592518 said by JazzJRabbit:

said by devnuller:

That's the FUD talking. I use Internet video everyday with Fancast, Hulu,, Netflix kids with online games, YouTube and Slingbox. Never come close to caps. The world will end with CAPs is just plain rhetoric.

CAP usage is better explained in this editorial by Justin(the owner of DSLReports).
From what I read Netflix HD streaming requires 8-10MBit bandwidth. So if throttling like this was implemented by US ISPs and you were on 20MB tier, then you'd be throttled even before you finished watching your movie.
The total size of a Netflix HD movie is about 6GB. The rate at which it downloads doesn't matter as it doesn't use 8-10Mbps for the entire time the movie runs.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21592518 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:54:04 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21592261 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21592261 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:06:49 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591975 www.netflix.com/WiMessage?msg=59

You'll need to login.

Basically it says a 5mbps or higher is fine. Not to mention why would netflix release technology that only, say, 1% of people can get?

So at 5mbps you could watch 24/7 on virgin if you had a 20mbps package right? Because if they throttle you to 25% you still have 5mbps. And the 50mbps plan you'd still have plenty of headroom.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591975 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:18:42 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591584 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591584 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:07:09 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591539 said by devnuller:

said by JazzJRabbit:

From what I read Netflix HD streaming requires 8-10MBit bandwidth. So if throttling like this was implemented by US ISPs and you were on 20MB tier, then you'd be throttled even before you finished watching your movie.
You are confusing speed (20Mb per second) with usage (250,000M per month). This is a common mistake.
I'm assuming you're talking about comcast since you mentioned 250GB cap.

I said if US ISPs followed Virgin throttling approach then you would be throttled before you could even watch one HD movie from netflix.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591539 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:00:58 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591503
»news.cnet.com/8301-13515_3-10078091-26.html]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591503 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:56:46 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591444 said by meh37 :

Speed + time = usage
Usage, of course, varies relative to how much time you spend "speeding". (Or were you just trying to be funny?)
I think it is actually a sum of instances around speed * time = usage. And no, I was trying to clarify a misconception.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591444 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:47:26 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591389 is going to start targeting BitTorrent specifically. Do you see any anti-competitive implications of a cable TV company suddenly throttling a protocol that delivers competition via peer to peer networks?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591389 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:36:05 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591349 said by devnuller:

said by JazzJRabbit:

From what I read Netflix HD streaming requires 8-10MBit bandwidth. So if throttling like this was implemented by US ISPs and you were on 20MB tier, then you'd be throttled even before you finished watching your movie.
You are confusing speed (20Mb per second) with usage (250,000M per month). This is a common mistake.
Speed + time = usage
Usage, of course, varies relative to how much time you spend "speeding". (Or were you just trying to be funny?)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591349 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:28:28 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591316 agree with much of what you said in that post. The only thing I challenge are changes around the delivery systems. Current video delivery is predictable and has clear economics around it. If it is live/linear or VoD across cable or fiber, people know how to predict, build and charge for it to run a business.

Even alternative Internet video today via CDN or hosters is pretty clear and mostly has solid economics if the proper payment systems are in place (they pay someone) for transit delivery and no one exploits the peering infrastructure.

Where it breaks down is with P2P. Shifting all the costs of video delivery to the consumer based infrastructure (and in turn consumers) does not have clear economics behind it. Some call it "free", others call it "helps the ISP", and others see it as the "holy grail" of CDN. The problem is, none of those people pay the bill in a P2P delivery world.

You know who REALLY wants unlimited???? Content companies that want to use your and my bandwidth for "free"

It's not as simple as "stick it to the man". Find me a real study that shows P2P is cheaper OVER ALL and not just for the content owners. Look into this a little bit more as it is a real technical and business issue.

[EDIT: These statements are not meant to support protocol based throttling. Which I personally do not]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591316 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:20:11 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591290 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591290 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:13:24 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591278 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591278 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:12:11 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591152 said by JazzJRabbit:

From what I read Netflix HD streaming requires 8-10MBit bandwidth. So if throttling like this was implemented by US ISPs and you were on 20MB tier, then you'd be throttled even before you finished watching your movie.
You are confusing speed (20Mb per second) with usage (250,000M per month). This is a common mistake.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591152 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:49:45 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591096 said by devnuller:

That's the FUD talking. I use Internet video everyday with Fancast, Hulu,, Netflix kids with online games, YouTube and Slingbox. Never come close to caps. The world will end with CAPs is just plain rhetoric.

CAP usage is better explained in this editorial by Justin(the owner of DSLReports).
From what I read Netflix HD streaming requires 8-10MBit bandwidth. So if throttling like this was implemented by US ISPs and you were on 20MB tier, then you'd be throttled even before you finished watching your movie.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591096 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:41:02 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591077 Punishes alternative video deliver, how?Monthly caps as low as 5GB are currently being trialed by companies like Time Warner Cable and Frontier. I'll let you do the math for a household full of users. Meanwhile, BitTorrent throttling (like Bell Canada's) doesn't just target P2P piracy, it targets alternative BitTorrent delivery systems that will increasingly compete with Cable or telcoTV.

Higher caps that are clear, and only reached by a vast minority of extremely high-consumption customers are fine. As is smart network management. The problem is that what constitutes excessive use is arbitrary, raw core network congestion data is not published by ISPs, and it will be very easy to abuse systems "for the good of the network" in order to protect TV revenues.

I suppose those who think that's "FUD" (97% of the time that's coming from people in the industry whose wallets or portfolios benefit from metered billing or anti-competitive behavior) can bookmark this post and come back to it in four years to tell me I was wrong.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21591077 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:37:49 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21590880 FUD talking. I use Internet video everyday with Fancast, Hulu,, Netflix kids with online games, YouTube and Slingbox. Never come close to caps. The world will end with CAPs is just plain rhetoric.

CAP usage is better explained in this editorial by Justin(the owner of DSLReports).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21590880 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:09:32 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21590540 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21590540 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:20:31 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21590534 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21590534 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:19:09 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21590467 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21590467 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:09:52 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21590369 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21590369 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:57:57 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21590350 said by swhitney2003:

No, that is for their 10mbps/512kbps service. I believe the 50mbps was going to be 10GB
Oh QQ, I'll hit that in a single day! I do 2 quadrillion GB a month! This isn't fair! I pay (really, my parents do) for unlimited usage and I should have the ability to download the full capacity of anything *I* want, anytime *I* want to! If it cripples my node because I want to run uTorrent at 6000 simultaneous connections I don't care! They should upgrade the node just for me! Where does my $45 a month go?!?

After a single Blu-Ray rip, er, I mean Linux download and all my WoW updates, anime, Windows Updates, and DDoS traffic I'm screwed!!11 I don't want to pay for all teh spam and unsolicited traffic that is sent to my cable modem!!1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21590350 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:55:02 EDT Re: 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21590293
Edit: in the picture of this article the 20mbps service allots 3GB.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-50mbps-for-192-seconds-21590293 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:47:11 EDT 50mbps for 192 seconds? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/50mbps-for-192-seconds-21590264
You've GOT to be sh*tting me.. I'll stick with my 15mbps *UNRESTRICTED* DOCSIS 1.x (or is it 2.0) cable modem for now.

I'm glad our ISP doesn't pull this cap crap like everyone else does.

"Let's build a faster internet, but cap the hell out of it so no one can fully utilize it".. Makes perfect sense.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/50mbps-for-192-seconds-21590264 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:42:22 EDT