Topic 'Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions...' in forum ''

Topic 'Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions...' in forum '' - dslreports.com http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608692 en Sat, 11 Feb 2012 16:40:07 EDT Sat, 11 Feb 2012 16:40:07 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21617590 said by funchords:

said by grumpy3b:

You can never drive faster than:

A) 55MPH
B) The posted speed limit
C) Then is safe
D) Some other inane answer...

E) the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s :) ;) :D
F) Ludicrous Speed!! :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21617590 Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:08:44 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21617112
Basically I'm saying that the lesson in language is pointless. Unlimited access means just that, unlimited access...there is no context. Access to anything, everything, all you can consume, without any hindrance.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21617112 Sun, 21 Dec 2008 15:06:04 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21615267
»www.newegg.com/Product/ProductLi···hInDesc=

I still do not believe you can see the difference on that small of a screen. I do believe you probably were seeing poorly compressed 720p. Do you have any idea what interfaces the previous HDTVs you saw were connected with.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21615267 Sun, 21 Dec 2008 01:50:23 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21615208
And I fail to see why it's so hard to find even a PC monitor with that resolution when so many laptops even now seem to be able to do it. You end up sitting about the same distance from either.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21615208 Sun, 21 Dec 2008 01:27:24 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21615196
What was the resolution of that 17 inch notebook? Maybe 1280 X1024. 720p is 1280X720 and 1080p is 1920X1080. Now if you were to say that you could see bad 720 Xvid(divx, etc) I would buy that. Poorly compressed stuff is all over the place. What kind of interface were the TV being used as monitors? A lot used to use SVHS which is limited to 480i.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21615196 Sun, 21 Dec 2008 01:22:09 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21615059 said by Lazlow:

You are probably never going to see 1080p on the smaller HDTVs. There is just no point. On a 32 inch you may be able to tell the difference between 720p and 1080p but on a small screen you are not.

You have to set your font/icon size appropriate for the screen size and you have to be the proper distance from the TV. For instance on my 40inch if I am closer than 4(?) feet the screen looks bad, but at 10 feet it looks wonderful.
I was already able to tell the difference between 720p and 1080p with a 17" notebook display. I don't have the room for a 40" TV - it's simply too big to fit anywhere in my room. Even 32" would be pushing it, as I'd almost assuredly have to get a wall-mount.

And no amount of font/icon settings made any TV look any better with a computer output running through it. They just look horrible.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21615059 Sun, 21 Dec 2008 00:25:57 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21615041
You have to set your font/icon size appropriate for the screen size and you have to be the proper distance from the TV. For instance on my 40inch if I am closer than 4(?) feet the screen looks bad, but at 10 feet it looks wonderful. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21615041 Sun, 21 Dec 2008 00:19:38 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21614940 said by Lazlow:

What inputs do you need? Here is a samsung TV with HDMI,SVHS, component, VGA, and RF all in a 22inch screen.

»www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a···89102199My current Gateway FPD2185W:
DVI - main computer
VGA - primary Dreamcast input
Component Video - run to a switch that then splits out to my current-gen consoles
S-Video and Composite - back-up Dreamcast

If I'd had at least one HDMI port (and then get a switch later) on top of these, it would free up most of my need for the switch and keep things somewhat neater. But then again, if it has at least from S-Video up to HDMI, that would cover what I'd need.

I've also considered the "HDTV as monitor" route, but to be quite frank, every type of TV that I'd seen try to double as a PC monitor only looked like ass in actual usage. Text was almost always unreadable, and icons for power apps like 3DS Max become unrecognizable on those things. And if I'm going to get a TV, I'll want 1080p, since i'd want to do it right and have something that will remain viable in long-term (a lot more than 2~3 years, that's for sure :uhh: ).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21614940 Sat, 20 Dec 2008 23:48:14 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21614651 said by grumpy3b:

they get away with it for the same reason the DMV in CA can have this question on the test:

You can never drive faster than:

A) 55MPH
B) The posted speed limit
C) Then is safe
D) Some other inane answer...

According to the DMV it is "Than is safe"...BUT, ultimately it depends on how you frame your logic...in theory B&C are the same answer because the posted speed limit is supposed to be the MAXIMUM safe speed we are allowed to drive. But, the DMV chooses to look at it the other way around using the "than is safe" as the answer. For many it's a chicken or egg question and answer.

I suspect the same folks word the ads for the ISP's...intentionally worded to imply the widest possible interpretation and limits. Yet, later the specifics are in there...I simply do not see how they can consider a cap of any sort reasonable as cable & DSL speeds are increasing to scary fast speeds every day now.

But these things are why I have stuck by smaller independent ISP for both DSL and MBB...no caps, no limits. I do however use my MBB with a bit of care so they don't begin to get static from the actual provider. But I have my original paperwork for both services which indeed state unlimited use just don't be stupid and serve up (upload) 1TB of data every month. That is not vague at all.
OT here but.....
B & C are not the same.
If the road has ice on it, then clearly if the posted limit is 55mph, driving at that speed is not safe in a small car.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21614651 Sat, 20 Dec 2008 22:28:58 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21613341
What inputs do you need? Here is a samsung TV with HDMI,SVHS, component, VGA, and RF all in a 22inch screen.

»www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a···89102199]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21613341 Sat, 20 Dec 2008 16:45:29 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21612621
What if I know my car can handle the posted speed limit even going along a hard turn that would make most trucks flip on their sides? That's shouldn't be my problem if people choose to buy vehicles that can't handle the posted speed limits on the existing road conditions. But it is my problem when these same people then hold up traffic to create the unsafe conditions that the laws were designed to prevent. :mad:

In a similar manner, I am now being forced to have to buy a separate HDTV and computer monitor because Gateway half-assed the HDCP in this unit. Gateway's only reply is "it's out of warranty; just buy another one." Problem is, neither they nor anybody else makes a computer monitor with the rather comprehensive sets of video inputs that I would need anymore. So now I have to buy both a new monitor that has the necessary amount of HDCP support and a separate HDTV with as comprehensive a list of inputs as possible in order to meet what I'd need from a display. And I know no (HD)TV manufacturer will make a set with the specs I need for the size of screen I'd actually be able to fit in my room. :(]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21612621 Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:40:14 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21611623 quote:

they get away with it for the same reason the DMV in CA can have this question on the test:

You can never drive faster than:

A) 55MPH
B) The posted speed limit
C) Then is safe
D) Some other inane answer...

According to the DMV it is "Than is safe"...BUT, ultimately it depends on how you frame your logic...in theory B&C are the same answer because the posted speed limit is supposed to be the MAXIMUM safe speed we are allowed to drive. But, the DMV chooses to look at it the other way around using the "than is safe" as the answer. For many it's a chicken or egg question and answer.

I suspect the same folks word the ads for the ISP's...intentionally worded to imply the widest possible interpretation and limits. Yet, later the specifics are in there...I simply do not see how they can consider a cap of any sort reasonable as cable & DSL speeds are increasing to scary fast speeds every day now.

But these things are why I have stuck by smaller independent ISP for both DSL and MBB...no caps, no limits. I do however use my MBB with a bit of care so they don't begin to get static from the actual provider. But I have my original paperwork for both services which indeed state unlimited use just don't be stupid and serve up (upload) 1TB of data every month. That is not vague at all.

No, posted speed-limit is pretty much "up-to" speed.

If your on a interstate speed limit 80MPH, heavy fog or rain causes everyone to slow down to 50MPH, should you still be going 80MPH? No. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21611623 Sat, 20 Dec 2008 08:59:15 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21611612
Broadband must be marketed as the MAXIMUM DATA PER MONTH at the MOST LIMITED protocol. Easy to compare and hard to throttle.

Problem solved :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21611612 Sat, 20 Dec 2008 08:23:24 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21611440 said by grumpy3b:

they get away with it for the same reason the DMV in CA can have this question on the test:

You can never drive faster than:

A) 55MPH
B) The posted speed limit
C) Then is safe
D) Some other inane answer...

According to the DMV it is "Than is safe"...BUT, ultimately it depends on how you frame your logic...
»www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22351.htm

I don't think your logic (or mine) has anything to do with it. It seems to say that either the Prima Facie Speed Limits (Section 22352, and 22357), or the Basic Speed Law (22350) take precedence, whichever is greater. And you will need "competent evidence" that your speed did not exceed the Basic Speed Law, in the case that you were in excess of the Prima Facie Speed Limits.

As I read Chapter 7, Article 1 of the California Vehicle Code, "C)" is the only correct answer possible.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21611440 Sat, 20 Dec 2008 05:51:18 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21611426 --
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21611426 Sat, 20 Dec 2008 05:28:17 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21611418 said by DustySilicon:

Karl says it very succinctly.
He did, yes, but you did not. "Unlimted" != "unlimtited self-confidence".

"Unlimited" is an adjective, and by itself really isn't a useful word.

"Unlimited Internet", OTOH, is a useful combination, and can be assumed to imply that there are no limits to what you can get from the Internet.

"Unlimited access", is still another useful combination; but has to be taken in the context of "access to what".

You can't compose a sentence with just an adjective: What does "Mary hit the unlimited" mean?

However, the moment you apply an adjective to a noun, such as "unlimited Internet", you actually convey some meaning.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21611418 Sat, 20 Dec 2008 05:20:07 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21611410 said by amigo_boy:

Your complaint is like the kid who did 90 on the 40 mph surface street. He claimed it wasn't posted. I.e., unlimited.
The flaw in your analogy is that the driver is responsible for knowing the content of the vehicle code; at least as applies to his driving. Most states are similar to California, which actually has several speed laws.

• Maximum Speed ~~law~~ Limit (Sect. 22349): 65 mph. ~~unless post as 70 mph by CalTrans.~~

• Prima Facie Speed ~~law~~ Limits (Sect. 22352): ~~No faster than is safe.~~ 15 mph, or 25 mph, depending on conditions specified in the code.

• Basic Speed Law (Sect. 22350): ~~25 mph in residential areas, 15 mph in area of limited visibility.~~ No greater than reasonable or prudent ...

No matter what, Prima Facie takes overall precedence; if it is foggy, whether the road is posted 75 mph, or not posted at all, any speed faster than that which takes you to the limit of visibility is unsafe.

There are also sections concerning the "Increase of Freeway and Local Speed Limits", one of which specifies locally established Prima Facie Speed Limits other than 15 mph and 25 mph.

If there is no posted limit, then assume Prima Facie Speed Limits; and, ~~do not drive faster than conditions permit~~ in any case Section 22351, titled, "Speed Law Violations", implies that the "Basic Speed Law" is taken as the overriding law.

How anything related to highway speed can be compared to "unlimited" escapes me, because the C.V.C. is pretty clear; in the absence of posted limits, there are still assumed limits. Speed is, simply put, not "unlimited".

As for Internet advertising, I have never personally seen an ISP add offering unqualified unlimited service (other than old, dated ads from the past, demonstrating that ISPs did, once, advertise so). All the actual ads I have seen in the wild have been qualified. It is not a mere game of semantics to qualify a word. And "unlimited access" != "unlimited bandwidth". My own ISP offers either "unlimited access" (for HSI) or "limited access" (for dial-up). Okay, they don't actually say, "limited access", rather they specify the actual limits in hours of connect time per month. In contrast with HSI allowing me to maintain a login session indefinitely ("unlimited access").
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21611410 Sat, 20 Dec 2008 05:09:40 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21611201 said by amigo_boy:

I think it would be more productive for DSLR to organize a "truth in labeling" movement. Lobby Congress to pass the equivalent of nutrition labeling for broadband. Standardized measurements and format of reporting so consumers can make better choices.

But instead, it's just how bad providers are, how bad government is, how everyone else should be unhappy like a few DSLR activists are.

There's nothing constructive in that.

Mark
Hey, it looks like you have no clue that unlimited = no limit and you're otherwise losing your argument. Isn't it time you trotted out the good ol' standby of yours that you have used (by my count) about 100 times or so, that magical section of the U.S. code that you interpret to mean that the federal government can spy on citizens without oversight or worrying about breaking any laws. That always seems to shut people up who disagree with you and you just go on imagining that it's because you're right. :uhh:
--
The Toll

Tracking Lord Stanley
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21611201 Sat, 20 Dec 2008 02:17:17 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21610930 said by NetAdmin1:

I understand that people hear what they want, but it is problematic when what people want to hear undermines a clear concept like "unlimited."
I agree. It's just a matter of how large the group of people are who feel it's problematic. This seems like a bell curve. If 80% use 2-3 gig per month, and I advertise to that group (with an unstated 4 gig cap), I don't care about the 10% who will be affected by the cap. The 80% is the sweet spot.

I think the problem is that "unlimited" is interpreted in a literal, scientific way instead of advertising. Everyone knows there is a difference. It's just those whom a scientific definition works in their favor insist advertising should be scientific.

I was serious about what I said before. I think it would be more constructive for DSLR to lead an effort to enact a broadband equivalent of nutrition labeling. I don't see how these whine sessions lead to anything constructive.

For example, someone else's hubris over caps doesn't move me (when, for all intents and purposes, I have unlimited bandwidth). But, standardized measurements and reporting is consistent with a free marketplace (to help buyers make informed decisions). I could give 100% support to that.

Baby steps.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21610930 Sat, 20 Dec 2008 00:36:51 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21610876 said by amigo_boy:

said by NetAdmin1:

It doesn't matter what people interpret unlimited to mean,

I disagree. Advertising is defined as helping people hear what they want to hear.I see your point. Thing is that for people who are educated and were taught proper English and the proper meaning of words, this type of thing is infuriating. I understand that people hear what they want, but it is problematic when what people want to hear undermines a clear concept like "unlimited."
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21610876 Sat, 20 Dec 2008 00:19:14 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21610862 said by funchords:

This is a question of whether there is a difference between limited and unlimited. It's a silly question.I definitely agree with you on that point. I guess this is another one of those inane things in the business world that is obviously quite stupid and yet accepted despite its completely irrational nature. It definitely is prime material for a Dilbert strip.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21610862 Sat, 20 Dec 2008 00:16:14 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21610831 said by NetAdmin1:

It doesn't matter what people interpret unlimited to mean, because unlimited has a very specific definition. And interpretations are very oft wrong. We get it, we all get it. People of average intelligence get it. People of unlimited intelligence get it. We all do.

This is a question of whether there is a difference between limited and unlimited. It's a silly question.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon -- KJ7RL
What you do at Christmas does not matter so much; What counts are the Christmas things you do all year through.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21610831 Sat, 20 Dec 2008 00:04:02 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21610755 said by NetAdmin1:

It doesn't matter what people interpret unlimited to mean,
I disagree. Advertising is defined as helping people hear what they want to hear. If I target advertising to majority usage patterns (what the average person deems "reasonable"), then "unlimited" is anything above that.

Even those who are upset because they fall outside the pattern of averages would admit that there has to be limits. Nothing is ever truly "unlimited." So, what they're really complaining about is that they fall outside the average. And, what they suggest is that those who don't care should.

To me, that's not logical. It doesn't seem like it will ever lead to anything. Telling people they should be unhappy about something they have no reason to be unhappy about.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21610755 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:45:15 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21610728 said by amigo_boy:

I think the cap issue is similar. Most people interpret "unlimited" in terms of what's average for the average person. Not sharing files 24x7, running servers, etc.It doesn't matter what people interpret unlimited to mean, because unlimited has a very specific definition. And interpretations are very oft wrong.

That's the problem. Unlimited has a definition that is clear. What is happening is ISPs are trying to change what unlimited is and then complain when people take it at dictionary definition, face value. That's just plain dirty pool.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21610728 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:37:28 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21610704 said by MrSpock29:

... and I think most people know how to read a speed limit sign.That's my point. Most people know what "unlimited" means *within the context of their own use.* Just like speed limits imply "conditions apply," I believe providers use "unlimited" in the same sense. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, I get unlimited use every month. Just like I feel no need to test whether I can really drive 45 when the street is congested with rush-hour traffic, I see no reason to test how much broadband I can use without reaching a limit. I never give it a second thought in either case.

said by MrSpock29:

If Comcast starts holding classes on what "unlimited" really means, and how it means "average",

They don't have to. The majority knows what it means. Or, better said, they never have a reason to question what it means because they are average.

The problem is that a minority of outliers want their predicament explained to those who don't have a predicament. It's just kvetching.

I think it would be more productive for DSLR to organize a "truth in labeling" movement. Lobby Congress to pass the equivalent of nutrition labeling for broadband. Standardized measurements and format of reporting so consumers can make better choices.

But instead, it's just how bad providers are, how bad government is, how everyone else should be unhappy like a few DSLR activists are.

There's nothing constructive in that.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21610704 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:30:09 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21610649 said by amigo_boy:

said by Karl Bode:

You're getting there! You're not speaking in recognizable English

I'm just pointing out that, like speed limits, there is the literal interpretation and the commonly understood interpretation. It is my belief that "unlimited," to most people, means they'll never reach a limit based upon them being part of an average group with average usage patterns.

Just like 45mph means that's the limit under normal conditions.

I agree that it would shut some people up if they just printed an asterisk with footnote explaining the cap. But, I just don't think those people are anywhere near a small minority. So, there's no reason to.

Mark
Around here, speed limit signs say "Conditions Permitting". It still is not a good analogy. Also, we have driver ed classes and I think most people know how to read a speed limit sign. If Comcast starts holding classes on what "unlimited" really means, and how it means "average", then maybe you have an analogy.
However, you (or they) can't just change the definition of a word to make a point. The only meaning to "unlimited" is "no limits". ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21610649 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:18:24 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21610248
It took me a while to track this down.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refractive···of_light

That is when the speed of light exceeds C.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21610248 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:42:24 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21609968 said by grumpy3b:

they get away with it for the same reason the DMV in CA can have this question on the test:

You can never drive faster than:

A) 55MPH
B) The posted speed limit
C) Then is safe
D) Some other inane answer...

According to the DMV it is "Than is safe"...BUT, ultimately it depends on how you frame your logic...in theory B&C are the same answer because the posted speed limit is supposed to be the MAXIMUM safe speed we are allowed to drive. But, the DMV chooses to look at it the other way around using the "than is safe" as the answer. For many it's a chicken or egg question and answer. This reminds me of a question that was on a NYS Regent's Exam (A standard test that is given to High School Students) that asked "Which Planet is furthest from the Sun?" with both Neptune and Pluto as provided choices (This was years ago when Pluto was still classified as a Planet). They wanted Pluto as the correct answer and called Neptune as an incorrect answer even though at the time of the test (and for some time before and after) Pluto was inside Neptune's orbit. Thus they were penalizing those who (due to the the lack of a qualifier like "Planet's Orbit" or "Planet is Currently") provided the correct accurate answer since Neptune WAS furthest from the Sun when the question was posed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21609968 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:37:50 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21609916 said by amigo_boy:

I believe even those arguing a literal interpretation of "unlimited" would say that someone consuming 400 gig in a month would be ridiculous to claim "but it said 'unlimited.'"

That's why I believe the term is aimed at what the average person considers to be reasonable, and would experience. Those complaining are the outliers. There always will be outliers. Just like those who expect to get a dial tone even when the entire country picks up their handset at the same time.

Mark
1998 - I believe even those arguing a literal interpretation of "unlimited" would say that someone consuming FOUR gig in a month would be ridiculous to claim "but it said 'unlimited.'"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21609916 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:24:00 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21609362 said by Lazlow:

That is the speed of light in a vaccum(or air, I forget which), but in certain substances light CAN travel faster than that.
That is the speed of light in a vacuum and no, it can never travel faster than that. You may be thinking that in certain substances it slows down ... but never faster.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21609362 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:37:57 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21609273 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21609273 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:20:25 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21609243 said by Karl Bode:

You're getting there! You're not speaking in recognizable English
I'm just pointing out that, like speed limits, there is the literal interpretation and the commonly understood interpretation. It is my belief that "unlimited," to most people, means they'll never reach a limit based upon them being part of an average group with average usage patterns.

Just like 45mph means that's the limit under normal conditions.

I agree that it would shut some people up if they just printed an asterisk with footnote explaining the cap. But, I just don't think those people are anywhere near a small minority. So, there's no reason to.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21609243 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:15:46 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21609214 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21609214 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:10:28 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21609183

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21609183 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:05:01 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21609050 said by Karl Bode:

Hi again, it's me.

Unlimited = no limits.
And 45 mph means 45 mph.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21609050 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:40:17 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21609041
Unlimited = no limits.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21609041 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:38:10 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608984 said by DustySilicon:

Unlimited:

1. Having no restrictions or controls: an unlimited travel ticket.
2. Having or seeming to have no boundaries; infinite: an unlimited horizon.
3. Without qualification or exception; absolute: unlimited self-confidence.

Karl says it very succinctly.
I believe even those arguing a literal interpretation of "unlimited" would say that someone consuming 400 gig in a month would be ridiculous to claim "but it said 'unlimited.'"

That's why I believe the term is aimed at what the average person considers to be reasonable, and would experience. Those complaining are the outliers. There always will be outliers. Just like those who expect to get a dial tone even when the entire country picks up their handset at the same time.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608984 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:31:00 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608940 said by amigo_boy:

Unfortunately, there will always be people who say "I was driving the posted limit, it shouldn't matter if the street was congested."
That is my point...by definition the fastest one is allowed to drive at any given time under optimal conditions is the posted limit...by saying the answer is "than is safe" changes the definition of the speed limit...and yes the answer can be interpreted in favor of either answer...but under no conditions can one exceed the posted speed limit. Which to me indicates that is the 'correct' answer...

Anyway, my point was these sorts of vagaries are everywhere and open to interpretation...I was also being sarcastic that these companies are no better than the DMV... ;)
--
Using Millenicom? Come visit the Unofficial Millenicom forum here on BBR »Millenicom]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608940 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:24:18 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608930 said by amigo_boy:

said by ANON101Bseven :

your point holds no water, if the speed limit sign said unlimited, then yes, your point would hold water, but it doesn't.

It's relative. The signage says there is a limit, but it's not the actual limit.

Your complaint is like the kid who did 90 on the 40 mph surface street. He claimed it wasn't posted. I.e., unlimited.

Same concept.

Mark
In both cases there are law, rules, and regulations attached to your drivers license. In the case of the kid who claimed unlimited because it wasn't posted, guess he's never see a "Citywide Speed Limit is 35 unless otherwise posted" sign.

Besides, if it was all spelled out on the sign, you wouldn't have room left for the speed limit itself, much less time to read it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608930 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:22:43 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608902 said by funchords:

said by grumpy3b:

You can never drive faster than:

A) 55MPH
B) The posted speed limit
C) Then is safe
D) Some other inane answer...

E) the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s :) ;) :D

:p HAHAHAHA...I stand corrected!!
--
Using Millenicom? Come visit the Unofficial Millenicom forum here on BBR »Millenicom]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608902 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:16:16 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608873
1. Having no restrictions or controls: an unlimited travel ticket.
2. Having or seeming to have no boundaries; infinite: an unlimited horizon.
3. Without qualification or exception; absolute: unlimited self-confidence.

Karl says it very succinctly. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608873 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:08:14 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608863 said by ANON101Bseven :

your point holds no water, if the speed limit sign said unlimited, then yes, your point would hold water, but it doesn't.
It's relative. The signage says there is a limit, but it's not the actual limit.

Your complaint is like the kid who did 90 on the 40 mph surface street. He claimed it wasn't posted. I.e., unlimited.

Same concept.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608863 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:06:22 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608829
Unlimited = no limits.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608829 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:01:33 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608827 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608827 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:00:46 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608824 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608824 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:59:44 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608781 said by funchords:

Unlimited already is pretty well defined,
Sure. And the sign that says "Speed Limit: 45" is well defined too. It's legal to drive 45. Nowhere in there does it say "unless it's pouring ran, or someone's jaywalking, or a car is stalled in the road."

If I'm not sharing files and running servers, "unlimited" looks like unlimited. If I'm "average" then that's who the term is written for.

But, there will always be those who don't fall within the average population. That's why the DMV has to ask what the legal limit is (posted, or based upon conditions).

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608781 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:51:51 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608759
What they are doing (in most cases) and have been doing for some time now, is selling you one thing and delivering a completely different product because they can get away with it because "average joe" (whoever that is) doesn't use everything he pays for and won't know he is being shortchanged.

-TC]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608759 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:46:56 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608751 said by amigo_boy:

Most people interpret "unlimited" in terms of what's average for the average person.
No, most people interpret "average" in terms of what's average for the population in question, or in terms of the usage divided by the entire population.

Unlimited already is pretty well defined, and although it has more than one definition, the word "average" doesn't appear anywhere.

# A term to describe an action not defined within narrowed limits.

or

# having no limits in range or scope; "to start with a theory of unlimited freedom is to end up with unlimited despotism"- Philip Rahv; "the ...
# outright: without reservation or exception
# inexhaustible: that cannot be entirely consumed or used up; "an inexhaustible supply of coal"

or

# In the graphic arts, the term used to describe an edition with no set quantity or restriction on quantity for printing.

or

# limitless or without bounds; unrestricted
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon -- KJ7RL
What you do at Christmas does not matter so much; What counts are the Christmas things you do all year through.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608751 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:45:32 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608729 said by grumpy3b:

You can never drive faster than:

A) 55MPH
B) The posted speed limit
C) Then is safe
D) Some other inane answer...
E) the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s :) ;) :D
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon -- KJ7RL
What you do at Christmas does not matter so much; What counts are the Christmas things you do all year through.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608729 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:40:13 EDT Re: Same reason the DMV gets away with some questions... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608720 said by grumpy3b:

You can never drive faster than:

A) 55MPH
B) The posted speed limit
C) Then is safe
D) Some other inane answer...

in theory B&C are the same answer because the posted speed limit is supposed to be the MAXIMUM safe speed we are allowed to drive.
Unfortunately, there will always be people who say "I was driving the posted limit, it shouldn't matter if the street was congested."

In my early 20s I got a few traffic tickets. Enough that I had to go to court instead of pay by mail. I remember there was some guy charged with driving 90 in a 40 mph zone (city street). The judge asked how he pled. He said "not guilty." The judge was astonished. He took a different tone, asking why this kid felt he was not guilty. The kid said "the speed limit wasn't posted." The judge asked the kid if he had his license with him. The kid said "yes." To which the judge ordered a deputy to seize it. The whole room burst into laughter.

I think the cap issue is similar. Most people interpret "unlimited" in terms of what's average for the average person. Not sharing files 24x7, running servers, etc.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Same-reason-the-DMV-gets-away-with-some-questions-21608720 Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:37:24 EDT