Topic 'Re: This isn't surprising...' in forum '' - dslreports.com http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21645721 en Thu, 09 Feb 2012 04:48:12 EDT Thu, 09 Feb 2012 04:48:12 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21692651 .. The ATI WONDER DIGITAL CABLE TUNER uses cablecard, and there is no monthly fee for ATI... therefore one can setup a personal computer with Vista (new, cablecard ready PC) and use their own ATI tuners to record their DRM protected programs... a trade-off many may be willing to do.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21692651 Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:15:42 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21652737 said by r81984:

What's the point of a lifetime subscription when you have to pay $200 to transfer it to a newer Tivo.The way I look at it, I paid $299 eight years ago for the original lifetime service on a Series1 TiVo which was transferred to a Series2 for free which was then transferred to the Series3 for $199. That $500 spread out over 8 years means I paid roughly $5.20 per month for service and it gets lower with each passing month. Compared to what Comcast would have charged me for a DVR, the TiVo is a bargain. Also, how does your MCE PC handle digital cable channels and HD channels? If it involves CableCards or having to get a box from your cable co, then your MCE's "advantage" over TiVo gets that much smaller.

said by r81984:

When they have true2way come out for switched digital video you will have to pay $400 on top of the price for two new Tivos.
No, I will get two Tuning Adapters so I can still get channels on SDV (which hasn't been implemented in my area yet).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21652737 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:50:49 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21651046 said by r81984:

said by miscDude:

said by r81984:

Also, I just cannot understand why you have to pay a monthly fee or a fake lifetime subscription for a Tivo.
The TV guides are free so what does the monthly fee pay for?
Actually... The guide data isn't free.

Yes... there are places online you can get your guide information without paying for it, but if you bother to read the licensing agreements, it is "for non-commercial uses" only.

Company's like TiVO... or Even the MSO's, have to pay licensing fees to the company's they get their guide data from. A good portion of that monthly fee you pay to TiVO, or even for your box-rental fee from the cable company, actually go to cover cost of providing the guide data.
So how come Microsoft does not charge for guides??
Guides are free.
If you read the terms of service for the EPG included in Vista's Media center ( »www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/medi···sV3.mspx ), you will notice that Microsoft is reserving the right to change things and start charging you for the service in the future.

The terms also include that "non-comercial / personal use" only clause as well.

It's also interesting to note that while searching for any details on how media center gets it's guide, I found articles in Australia where Microsoft is not providing guide data because the local networks were wanting to charge.

As for why you are not being charged for it right now? I honestly cannot say since I don't know the terms of the agreements they have. It could be that since Microsoft is selling the operating system, and the EPG is a "free optional program", it is able to avoid being seen as someone using that information for commercial purposes and therefore is able to avoid having to license the guide information. (vs TiVO or an MSO who are obviously using the guide information in a commercial enviroment).

It could also be something as simple as microsoft is subsidizing the cost of the guide in order to help their Media Center gain market position. It definately wouldn't be the first time Microsoft has lost money on something in order to help gain that foothold into new markets and try and give themselves a good position early. (XBox / Xbox360 for instance)

Two of the big IPG/EPG providers in the US are Tribune ( »www.tribunemediaentertainment.com/ ) and TV-Guide / Macrovision / Gemstar ( »macrovision.com/ ). From a quick glance of their products, it looks a bit like Macrovision thru their recent buyouts over the past couple years, may be moving towards a business model where they sell (and license) their actual guide software and package the data within those licensing fees. Tribune if you dig down you can see where they have the actual data as a seperate product offering.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21651046 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:05:50 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21650620 said by r81984:

said by Jmartz:

said by r81984:

My Windows Media Center does everything a Tivo does and more. Also back in the day Replay TV was free, but Tivo sued them out of business because they were ruining their rip off market. Real DVRs require no monthly fees.
Wait until your cable company gets rid of all analog channels and starts encrypting the digital QAM stuff. Your Windows Media Center PC will be worthless unless you have a CableCard.
You set MCE to operate using a cable box and then you get access to everthing or you can use a cablecard TV tuner.
Which takes you right back to the point you were trying to make, why pay the tivo monthly service fee. With the above you said with 2 cable boxes, you have already surpassed the monthly tivo fee.
--
This Space for Rent...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21650620 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:22:55 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21650618 said by r81984:

You set MCE to operate using a cable box and then you get access to everthing
But now you are paying an extra box fee just to watch TV. :uhh:

That's just like paying an extra DRV fee isn't it? :huh:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21650618 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:22:18 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21650599 said by miscDude:

said by r81984:

Also, I just cannot understand why you have to pay a monthly fee or a fake lifetime subscription for a Tivo.
The TV guides are free so what does the monthly fee pay for?
Actually... The guide data isn't free.

Yes... there are places online you can get your guide information without paying for it, but if you bother to read the licensing agreements, it is "for non-commercial uses" only.

Company's like TiVO... or Even the MSO's, have to pay licensing fees to the company's they get their guide data from. A good portion of that monthly fee you pay to TiVO, or even for your box-rental fee from the cable company, actually go to cover cost of providing the guide data.
So how come Microsoft does not charge for guides??
Guides are free.
--
For those of you playing a drinking game.... MY FRIENDS!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21650599 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:18:50 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21650593 said by Jmartz:

said by r81984:

My Windows Media Center does everything a Tivo does and more. Also back in the day Replay TV was free, but Tivo sued them out of business because they were ruining their rip off market. Real DVRs require no monthly fees.
Wait until your cable company gets rid of all analog channels and starts encrypting the digital QAM stuff. Your Windows Media Center PC will be worthless unless you have a CableCard.
You set MCE to operate using a cable box and then you get access to everthing or you can use a cablecard TV tuner.
--
For those of you playing a drinking game.... MY FRIENDS!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21650593 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:17:49 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21650315 said by moonpuppy:

The cable companies fought the Cablecards tooth and nail for years so they deserve the lion's share of the blame.
They aren't completely innocent... but I wouldn't say they should get all the blame for everything wrong with the current cablecard standard.

A lot of the complaints I've heard they had about the standard was that it was incomplete. They knew customer's would want access to the 2-way features which were at the time just around the corner. The Government and the consumer electronic companies said they needed to do something "NOW"... so the 1-way cablecard spec was released.

Unfortunately, it never really took off because by the time they were able to start bringing cablecard devices to the market, 2way services like OnDemand were becoming standard.

Tru2Way should fix a lot of the issues with the initial cablecard specs. Hopefully it won't fizzle and be on it's deathbed like 1-way cablecards appear to be.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21650315 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:16:20 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21650088 said by miscDude:

said by moonpuppy:

Sony has removed the slot from their TVs and Cablelabs is being quite stingy as to what devices can actually get certified to use the cards. HP and Dell have MediaPCs that can use Cablecards BUT you can't the the tuners separately to make your own Media Center PC.

Blame the cable companies on this one.
Actually, the more likely culprit to blame would be the media companies.

Yes, Cablelabs is stingy on what devices can be certified, in that devices much actually meet the standard which they are requesting certification.

Those standards are NOT just put together by the cable Company's. While Cablelabs is officially touted as the organization responsible for the Specs, it was actually put together by a group consisting of representative of the cable industry (MSO's), the consumer electronic manufacturers (sony, panasonic, samsung, etc), and the content providers (MPAA/Hollywood/whatever-you-want-to-call-them). Each group has it's own requirements and goals in the process of coming up with the standard.

That standard includes certain copy-protection and DRM provisions. Because those requirements are within the standard, devices being certified have to ensure those copy-protection/DRM provisions are being met. That's why you can only get a cablecard on a Media Center PC built (and certified) by an OEM company. Both the OEM, and Microsoft, have taken responsibility that their hardware/software setup will handle the DRM properly.
The cable companies fought the Cablecards tooth and nail for years so they deserve the lion's share of the blame. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21650088 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:30:10 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21650049 said by moonpuppy:

Sony has removed the slot from their TVs and Cablelabs is being quite stingy as to what devices can actually get certified to use the cards. HP and Dell have MediaPCs that can use Cablecards BUT you can't the the tuners separately to make your own Media Center PC.

Blame the cable companies on this one.
Actually, the more likely culprit to blame would be the media companies.

Yes, Cablelabs is stingy on what devices can be certified, in that devices much actually meet the standard which they are requesting certification.

Those standards are NOT just put together by the cable Company's. While Cablelabs is officially touted as the organization responsible for the Specs, it was actually put together by a group consisting of representative of the cable industry (MSO's), the consumer electronic manufacturers (sony, panasonic, samsung, etc), and the content providers (MPAA/Hollywood/whatever-you-want-to-call-them). Each group has it's own requirements and goals in the process of coming up with the standard.

That standard includes certain copy-protection and DRM provisions. Because those requirements are within the standard, devices being certified have to ensure those copy-protection/DRM provisions are being met. That's why you can only get a cablecard on a Media Center PC built (and certified) by an OEM company. Both the OEM, and Microsoft, have taken responsibility that their hardware/software setup will handle the DRM properly.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21650049 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:23:01 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649957 said by r81984:

Nothing uses cablecard except Tivo.
Only stupid people buy Tivo and pay a monthly fee to record tv shows.

Cablecard will take off once they are standard on TVs and work two ways.
ORLY?

Both my Mitsubishi TVs have Cablecard slots and one is in use (second is in storage.)

Sony has removed the slot from their TVs and Cablelabs is being quite stingy as to what devices can actually get certified to use the cards. HP and Dell have MediaPCs that can use Cablecards BUT you can't the the tuners separately to make your own Media Center PC.

Blame the cable companies on this one. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649957 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 09:58:14 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649866 said by n2jtx:

said by r81984:

Nothing uses cablecard except Tivo.
Only stupid people buy Tivo and pay a monthly fee to record tv shows.

Cablecard will take off once they are standard on TVs and work two ways.
My sister and brother-in-law's Sony SXRD television has a CableCard slot on the back. Unfortunately they live in Canada and Rogers does not and will not support CableCard as they are not subject to FCC regulations.

Once tru2way gets going with downloadable security, then I suspect rental boxes will start to be a thing of the past. I am sure the cable companies will still figure out a way to hit you for extra charges.
Tru2Way still uses cablecards for it's conditional access requirements. Downloadable Conditional Access is still a bit aways from widescale rollout.

And Rental boxes will still be around. Some people will still prefer to rent their box instead of buying something new to avoid the rental. But we will see more people owning their equiptment.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649866 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 09:25:54 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649835 said by r81984:

Also, I just cannot understand why you have to pay a monthly fee or a fake lifetime subscription for a Tivo.
The TV guides are free so what does the monthly fee pay for?
Actually... The guide data isn't free.

Yes... there are places online you can get your guide information without paying for it, but if you bother to read the licensing agreements, it is "for non-commercial uses" only.

Company's like TiVO... or Even the MSO's, have to pay licensing fees to the company's they get their guide data from. A good portion of that monthly fee you pay to TiVO, or even for your box-rental fee from the cable company, actually go to cover cost of providing the guide data.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649835 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 09:13:30 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649821
I took a older computer. It's siting behind my tv. make almost no noise

Celeron 1.5 gig system with a 5700 Nvidia card 500 gig Hard drive. 1 gig of ram. I run GBPVR gbpvr.com (FREE) which is a windows based system.

I added a Happenauge 1600 card to it. 59 bucks!

Now I just pay a yearly fee of 20 dollars for convenience of getting the EPG to update without input from me.

Currently I have the software to hold ALL of my mp3's so that my fiancee can listen to her music on the stereo in the living room. It also has Weather on it to let me know what the coming week is going to be with a Doppler radar already built in. It also has Net Radio which allows me to have a ton of channels from the internet streaming.
It allows me to access it remotely and setup a recording from anywhere in the world and after said recording is done I can download it to whereever I am to watch it.

Oh and I have a wireless card in it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649821 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 09:09:36 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649802 said by r81984:

Nothing uses cablecard except Tivo.
Only stupid people buy Tivo and pay a monthly fee to record tv shows.

Cablecard will take off once they are standard on TVs and work two ways.
1. A few years ago you could find a bunch of TV's with cablecard slots. They didn't sell too well so now you can only find higher-end tv's normally with the cablecard slot.

2. Cablecards are 2-way. The problem is the host devices sold to consumer are only 1way. The same cablecards you can get in your TV or TiVO are the ones used in the newer MSO cableboxes.

Tru2Way utilized cablecards, so their demand will likely increase once tru2way gets a wider audience.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649802 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 09:02:57 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649760 said by r81984:

My Windows Media Center does everything a Tivo does and more. Also back in the day Replay TV was free, but Tivo sued them out of business because they were ruining their rip off market. Real DVRs require no monthly fees.
Wait until your cable company gets rid of all analog channels and starts encrypting the digital QAM stuff. Your Windows Media Center PC will be worthless unless you have a CableCard.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649760 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 08:47:42 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649620 said by r81984:

You people are pathetic.

These are on Ebay all the time.
»cgi.ebay.com/ATI-TV-Wonder-Digit···294%3A50

»cgi.ebay.com/NEW-ATI-TV-WONDER-D···294%3A50
Lets see on a third party auction site we need to buy these. Do you perhaps have these in you home built MCE and it is working with cablecards? I highly doubt it. First you need Vista Ult 64, then you need a main board that is certified with OCAP from CableLabs. There have been no Main boards advertised with OCAP certification in the wild. If there are they are either refurbished or stolen electronics.

As what M$ has stated publicly, the only systems able to have Cable Card support in Vista. Are ones built by OEM's. Last I looked those systems they're were all over 1K. Now you maybe able to configure one on Dell for less but you get less.

If you can do all this by all means show me I've been trying to do this for over 2 years now.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649620 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 07:42:45 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649404
These are on Ebay all the time.
»cgi.ebay.com/ATI-TV-Wonder-Digit···294%3A50

»cgi.ebay.com/NEW-ATI-TV-WONDER-D···294%3A50
--
For those of you playing a drinking game.... MY FRIENDS!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649404 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 03:47:07 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649369 said by nightdesigns:

said by r81984:

Wow, thanks for admitting you have no idea what you are talking about.

You can build a MCE cable card PC right now. You do not have to buy it from OEM manufactures.
Then enlighten me and show me where I can find the parts. What I've seen has shown me otherwise, but maybe I'm wrong. Prove me wrong then.
Yes show me where I can get a cableCARD equipped PC tuner card with out having to buy a pre-built system]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649369 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 03:03:45 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649361 said by r81984:

My Windows Media Center does everything a Tivo does and more.
Really? Does it record shows from premium cable channels like HBO without using a cable box? My cableCARD equipped Tivo does that. I also do not pay a monthly fee since there are lifetime subscription options for Tivo. My cableCARD only cost $1.50 a month from Comcast. Their DVR was $15 and and HD cable box was $10 a month.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649361 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 02:54:21 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649160 said by r81984:

Wow, thanks for admitting you have no idea what you are talking about.

You can build a MCE cable card PC right now. You do not have to buy it from OEM manufactures.
Then enlighten me and show me where I can find the parts. What I've seen has shown me otherwise, but maybe I'm wrong. Prove me wrong then.
--
This Space for Rent...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649160 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 01:17:09 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649158 said by nightdesigns:

said by r81984:

Also, cable companies are moving to switch digital video right now. It is only a short matter of time before your HD Tivo is worthless without an external box to make it work. Some markets already have switched digital video.
Once again, your information about Tivos is incorrect. While the stock Tivo didn't have 2-way cable card access designed into it, tivo has released a "Tuning Resolver" that takes care of that issue. The product is being offered and installed at no charge by most cable companies.

Related to that, PCs equipped with cable cards run into the exact same 1-way communications. Your MCE PC will have the same SDV limitations as a tivo, but without a workaround. Also, per the terms of Cable Labs and Microsoft, an end user cannot build a MCE computer with Cable Card support. Only OEM manufactures have the ability to build, and certify, a system. Both are cable labs requirements for the system to work. If you find a work-around, most likely no cable companies will touch it because they are required to install and activate in approved systems only. A home-built PC, is not one.
Wow, thanks for admitting you have no idea what you are talking about.

You can build a MCE cable card PC right now. You do not have to buy it from OEM manufactures.
--
For those of you playing a drinking game.... MY FRIENDS!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649158 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 01:14:58 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649157 If you want tru2way then you have to buy a new Tivo and if you have a fake lifetime subscription you loose it unless they let you switch for a lot of money.

For the price of all of that, you might as well just get MCE PC and get more for your money.
--
For those of you playing a drinking game.... MY FRIENDS!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649157 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 01:12:59 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649147 said by r81984:

Also, cable companies are moving to switch digital video right now. It is only a short matter of time before your HD Tivo is worthless without an external box to make it work. Some markets already have switched digital video.
Once again, your information about Tivos is incorrect. While the stock Tivo didn't have 2-way cable card access designed into it, tivo has released a "Tuning Resolver" that takes care of that issue. The product is being offered and installed at no charge by most cable companies.

Related to that, PCs equipped with cable cards run into the exact same 1-way communications. Your MCE PC will have the same SDV limitations as a tivo, but without a workaround. Also, per the terms of Cable Labs and Microsoft, an end user cannot build a MCE computer with Cable Card support. Only OEM manufactures have the ability to build, and certify, a system. Both are cable labs requirements for the system to work. If you find a work-around, most likely no cable companies will touch it because they are required to install and activate in approved systems only. A home-built PC, is not one.
--
This Space for Rent...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649147 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 01:09:22 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649090
Only Time Warner Cable has REALLY rolled out SDV.

SDV plans so far appears to have been scrapped by Comcast, instead they are just planning to rip analog channels as fast and easily as they can get away with.

COX rolled it out to portions of Arizona, but in other areas (like Oklahoma City) upgraded to a full 1 GHz cable plant to avoid it.

Cisco (Scientific Atlanta) and Motorola both have SDV Tuning Adapters ready for TiVo HD/Series3 when the cable companies that DO offer SDV get off thier a** and actually deploy them in the field at full speed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649090 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 00:42:53 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649070 said by myosh:

I resent your original post and this reply. I don't pay monthly fees because I have lifetime service on both TiVos. Of course, I paid for one of my lifetime services back in 2000 (8 years ago) which was transferred to one of my hi-def TiVos. What's the point of a lifetime subscription when you have to pay $200 to transfer it to a newer Tivo.

When they have true2way come out for switched digital video you will have to pay $400 on top of the price for two new Tivos.
Also, I just cannot understand why you have to pay a monthly fee or a fake lifetime subscription for a Tivo.
The TV guides are free so what does the monthly fee pay for?
--
For those of you playing a drinking game.... MY FRIENDS!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649070 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 00:36:27 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649043 said by nightdesigns:

said by r81984:

Also I could make a Dual HD tuner MCE for about $300 and one with cablecard support for about $400 to $500. All without a monthly fee.
And, that right there, you've blown the "MCE is cheaper" argument right out of the water. HD tivos are dual tuner and support cable cards. You're required to have cable card capabilities to get the digital channels from the cable company ... unless you want cable boxes to feed each encoder, and those have a monthly rental fee.
MCE is cheaper, no monthly fee and more features.

Also, cable companies are moving to switch digital video right now. It is only a short matter of time before your HD Tivo is worthless without an external box to make it work. Some markets already have switched digital video.

It makes no sense to buy an HD Tivo knowing it is already obsolete.
At least with a MCE you can upgrade it to support any new technology.
--
For those of you playing a drinking game.... MY FRIENDS!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21649043 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 00:26:35 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648948 said by r81984:

Also I could make a Dual HD tuner MCE for about $300 and one with cablecard support for about $400 to $500. All without a monthly fee.
And, that right there, you've blown the "MCE is cheaper" argument right out of the water. HD tivos are dual tuner and support cable cards. You're required to have cable card capabilities to get the digital channels from the cable company ... unless you want cable boxes to feed each encoder, and those have a monthly rental fee.
--
This Space for Rent...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648948 Mon, 29 Dec 2008 00:00:57 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648753 said by r81984:

Are you joking. It makes no sense to have to pay a monthly fee to record TV shows. Why would you do that????As the owner of two hi-def TiVos, I resent your original post and this reply. I don't pay monthly fees because I have lifetime service on both TiVos. Of course, I paid for one of my lifetime services back in 2000 (8 years ago) which was transferred to one of my hi-def TiVos.

said by r81984:

My Windows Media Center does everything a Tivo does and more.
Windows? Enough said. :D

said by r81984:

Real DVRs require no monthly fees.
Tell that to the cable companies :huh:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648753 Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:03:03 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648746
I find it very hard to believe a quality HTPC can be built for $200 or even $500 being a Microsoft OS OEM from Newegg alone is $99, $100 per HD tuner, $80 cheap MB, $80 cheap CPU, $120 decent case, $70 HD, $60 good quiet PS, etc etc.

I don't download movies except via Netflix, but Tivo will handle Amazon movies, YouTube, and Disney.

It will also transfer pictures, music, and some video (not sure what types.. never done it) from any PC on your network to your Tivo unit to play on your TV.

The Netflix integretion works real well though. We've been pretty happy since it was a free add on.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648746 Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:01:07 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648525 said by Uncle Paul:

said by r81984:

said by nightdesigns:

As a tivo owner, I resent your comment. I picked up a Tivo HD for $150, which is reasonable, and my monthly fees are considerably less for a DVR from my cable company. Cox wants $18/mo for a HD-DVR that only holds 20 hours. I pay $10/mo + $2 for the cable card and I have 400 hours of space.
Are you joking. It makes no sense to have to pay a monthly fee to record TV shows. Why would you do that????
My Windows Media Center does everything a Tivo does and more. Also back in the day Replay TV was free, but Tivo sued them out of business because they were ruining their rip off market. Real DVRs require no monthly fees.
No jokes.

Lets see I'd easily pay $800 for a Dual HD tuner HTPC what would look good in my entertainment center. This PC would probably need to be replaced in 3 years.

I paid $150 for my HD Tivo and pay $10/month for service.

Lets do the math. $150 + (36*10) = $510

$510 or $800?

The PC would be easier to upgrade and have more flexibility, and could be cheaper if you went with a Linux solution. But sometimes the wife wants something easy to point and click to use without a hicup EVER.

All in all it's a matter of what's important to the end user and certainly isn't as simple as you would like it to seem.
Why would you have to replace your PC every 3 years???
Also I built my MCE PC for under $200 and hooked it up to my LCD TV. Also my computer illiterate girlfriend has no problem using it. I do not see how it is hard to use MCE.
If you cant use MCE then you will never be able to use a Tivo or even a digital cable box.
Can you put your own downloaded movies on a Tivo? Or does that cost extra per month?

Also I could make a Dual HD tuner MCE for about $300 and one with cablecard support for about $400 to $500. All without a monthly fee.
--
For those of you playing a drinking game.... MY FRIENDS!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648525 Sun, 28 Dec 2008 22:03:41 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648498 said by r81984:

said by nightdesigns:

As a tivo owner, I resent your comment. I picked up a Tivo HD for $150, which is reasonable, and my monthly fees are considerably less for a DVR from my cable company. Cox wants $18/mo for a HD-DVR that only holds 20 hours. I pay $10/mo + $2 for the cable card and I have 400 hours of space.
Are you joking. It makes no sense to have to pay a monthly fee to record TV shows. Why would you do that????
My Windows Media Center does everything a Tivo does and more. Also back in the day Replay TV was free, but Tivo sued them out of business because they were ruining their rip off market. Real DVRs require no monthly fees.
No jokes.

Lets see I'd easily pay $800 for a Dual HD tuner HTPC what would look good in my entertainment center. This PC would probably need to be replaced in 3 years.

I paid $150 for my HD Tivo and pay $10/month for service.

Lets do the math. $150 + (36*10) = $510

$510 or $800?

The PC would be easier to upgrade and have more flexibility, and could be cheaper if you went with a Linux solution. But sometimes the wife wants something easy to point and click to use without a hicup EVER.

All in all it's a matter of what's important to the end user and certainly isn't as simple as you would like it to seem.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648498 Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:56:53 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648446 said by nightdesigns:

As a tivo owner, I resent your comment. I picked up a Tivo HD for $150, which is reasonable, and my monthly fees are considerably less for a DVR from my cable company. Cox wants $18/mo for a HD-DVR that only holds 20 hours. I pay $10/mo + $2 for the cable card and I have 400 hours of space.
Are you joking. It makes no sense to have to pay a monthly fee to record TV shows. Why would you do that????
My Windows Media Center does everything a Tivo does and more. Also back in the day Replay TV was free, but Tivo sued them out of business because they were ruining their rip off market. Real DVRs require no monthly fees.
--
For those of you playing a drinking game.... MY FRIENDS!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648446 Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:41:55 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648445 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648445 Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:41:49 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648189 said by r81984:

Nothing uses cablecard except Tivo.
Only stupid people buy Tivo and pay a monthly fee to record tv shows.

Cablecard will take off once they are standard on TVs and work two ways.
My sister and brother-in-law's Sony SXRD television has a CableCard slot on the back. Unfortunately they live in Canada and Rogers does not and will not support CableCard as they are not subject to FCC regulations.

Once tru2way gets going with downloadable security, then I suspect rental boxes will start to be a thing of the past. I am sure the cable companies will still figure out a way to hit you for extra charges.
--
I support the right to keep and arm bears.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648189 Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:45:44 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648180 --
This Space for Rent...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648180 Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:44:31 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648174 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21648174 Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:42:08 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21647493 said by r81984:

Nothing uses cablecard except Tivo.
Only stupid people buy Tivo and pay a monthly fee to record tv shows.

Cablecard will take off once they are standard on TVs and work two ways.
Or rich people who like the option to pay for something better than what the MSO is offering. I agree though, Series 3 TiVos are VERY pricey, especially if your cable company charges a CableCARD rental fee.
--
AT&T U-Hearse
Your funeral. Delivered.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21647493 Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:20:28 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21647148 Only stupid people buy Tivo and pay a monthly fee to record tv shows.

Cablecard will take off once they are standard on TVs and work two ways.
--
For those of you playing a drinking game.... MY FRIENDS!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21647148 Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:04:23 EDT Re: This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21646617 said by Jmartz:

Since none of the companies advertise that they are available nor do they educate customers as to what they are for.
Nor do comcast employees know what they are for. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-This-isnt-surprising-21646617 Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:44:43 EDT This isn't surprising... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/This-isnt-surprising-21645721 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/This-isnt-surprising-21645721 Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:07:39 EDT