Topic 'Google routers' in forum '' - dslreports.com http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Google-routers-21702371 en Sat, 11 Feb 2012 16:40:31 EDT Sat, 11 Feb 2012 16:40:31 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21710823
Glad to know my zealotry comes through, sometimes i wonder if people understand the depths to which i hate walking into an office and seeing a sonicwall or PC in the corner "running the network".

True career network engineers will understand and appreciate the functionality provided by real enterprise class network gear. Anyone arguing linux as a serious integrated services router replacement is clearly not functioning in the capacity of engineering or operations for a complex global network with drasticly varying requirements. Cisco even with its exorbinant cost saves boatloads of money for most companies when it comes time to scale up or add capabilities to a network. Solving problems on cisco is easy because if it can be done, there is a fairly uniform way to do it where as on linux every solution has to be custom engineered (or copied from a poorly written howto guide). That kind of operational complexity isnt acceptable today, im not just managing a dozen network devices.

Need a gre tunnel? OK!
cisco> int tun105
ip add x.y.z.q
tun source X
tun dest Y
and add a tunnel protect statement to integrate crypto... look at that, im done in under 3 minutes with both sides up and pinging and routing exchanged dynamicly!

Linux> recompile the kernel or load a module to support gre, do the same for IPSEC, manually configure the routing, forget about simple crypto-maps and compile then configure 3 daemons to handle services such as IKE. Spend time researching what app to use and then version that supports the featuers you need and arent broken in release -STABLE thats never quite stable enough... Dont bother trying to do any kind of unequal cost load sharing because linux doesnt run EIGRP as most enterprise networks do... and all for the scant cost of 10 hours of my time.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21710823 Fri, 09 Jan 2009 15:26:00 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21709848 said by nosx:

Those Vyatta "studies" compare modern dual xeons with ancient 7200s. Congradulations on comparing apples to oranges but try to hold a flame to some of the new monster equipment.Its funny that you quote the word 'studies' as to imply they are deceptive. I guess your Cisco fanboyism is getting in the way of your objectivity. At the time of the study, Cisco was still selling this so called 'ancient' 7204 at over 30k+ with the tested configuration, it was not in end of life status either. Claiming its an apples to oranges comparison seems like excuses to me. Then again, a $30k device losing to a $7k device does seems unfair to whoever bought the higher costing device.

said by nosx:

You would be writing software for decades to try and make a linux box do half the things my little 7200 do.
Apparently I was right about the Cisco fanboyism part, that was a ridiculous statement.

In the high end segments Cisco and Juniper are king for sure, but as I've said before, thats a niche market, much like the high-computing market dominated mostly by 3 vendors (IBM PowerPC, Intel Itanium and Sun UltraSparc). For the vast majority of businesses that don't have these massive traffic requirements, there are much better alternatives than Cisco.
--
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA *]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21709848 Fri, 09 Jan 2009 12:51:51 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21706633
I think some of the posters were trying to compare cisco's popular security devices with specialized routing / firewall distributions (pfsense FTW!). Both the PIX series and the ASA series do indeed use x86 hardware.

Even top of the line ASA (which uses a Linux kernel) is an 8-core Opteron box.

So that's probably the closest (and most fair) comparison that can be made.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21706633 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:04:28 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21706551 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21706551 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 21:52:45 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21706327
There is alot more than simply passing packets to contend with here too. All the security, QOS, and integrated functionality that comes with the IOS or IOS-XR or IOS-XE or NXOS or ASA OS... yah cisco is #1 for a reason. (except in firewall space.. that juniper SRX 100gbps firewall is just a monster and the ASAs or FWSMs cant compete with that kind of thing lol) You would be writing software for decades to try and make a linux box do half the things my little 7200 do.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21706327 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 21:16:54 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21705803 said by DarkLogix:

Cisco easy

and cisco is more than a software company the hardware isn't some generic just its purpose builtIf you look at the 2 studies by the Tolly Group I linked you'll see that the commodity hardware used on the Vyatta platform was faster routing packets, had more capacity for holding BGP routes and was faster converging them by a substantial margin compared to the Cisco hardware it ran against. Cisco would like you to believe that purpose built hardware is better in all scenarios but that's a lie. It sure give's them some hefty profit margins from those who believe that crap.

said by DarkLogix:

and if you compair cisco to a software router with heavy testing you'll see butI doubt you could afford a 3845 or a 7613 for that matter

ya a lot of prople will come around and say hay this free software can beat such and such but if put to a real test then its not as likely as you think
That's exactly what Tolly did, and their results indicate otherwise. A little over $7k+ Vyatta platform soundly out-performing an over 30k+ Cisco router. You should at least backup your statements.

said by DarkLogix:

and just try finding a PC that can even handle an OC-48 let alone a OC-768 and even less the 100Gbit fiber thats coming
it just woun't be able to so the software routers can't compete with the likes of the 7613 or the CRS-1
Where is this assumption that a PC based router is not able to handle a OC48 coming from? Just curious, honestly, since I've seen this claim repeated several times on this thread. I can see how the old PCI-X bus could limit a server PC hardware-wise but with the bandwidth available on the PCIe bus, and 10G cards readily available, what's the limiting factor? Can you cite any studies that have been made or is this just another assumption on your part?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21705803 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 19:46:10 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21705636 said by tubbynet:

but how long did it take to create the vyatta software?
i know that certainly *wasn't* overnight.Didn't imply otherwise anywhere on my post.
said by tubbynet:

you are also assuming that google will just "rebrand" what has already been done. there are certainly examples out there, but what if they want to use "the google" from the ground up?
Actually, I never said anything about rebranding, that's your own assumption. I merely pointed to the fact that there is plenty of OSS code that Google can use to come up with their own router OS. They have done plenty of that in the past.
--
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA *]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21705636 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 19:17:55 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21704988 said by bky:

Ask any Cisco employee or reseller
i am

said by bky:

You are telling me that $60K justifies the manufacturing costs for a Cisco ASA 5550 with SSL VPN capabilities or $30K for a 6500 8-port gigabit switch module
have you *seen* the testing that goes into one of those things? do you know the man-hours of r&d that go into one of those devices? sure, they do offer support in smartnet. sure, it is expensive to maintain said service contracts. have you ever had to use a smartnet for hardware repairs? i've had a *generic* hardware support contract give me a device the next day to replace my broken one. i'm sorry, if i (or any of my customers) are paying for this support, then i will take it.
how is this any different than a provider charging you thousdand plus per month for a t1 line? it goes for support, overhead, etc.

said by bky:

It's ALL marketing.
so is everything else. cisco is no different.

said by bky:

Cisco has the staple because they got there first
and you don't think that it is because that they make good quality devices? what about kay-pro computers, or commodore? they were here first too, but have they survived? they either died or were bought out.

said by bky:

In fact, Cisco uses ghost manufacturers to produce most (if not all) of the gear they sell anyway
they may contract out for the actual assembly once the design is done, but what do you think about the r&d and design?
who actually manufactures their own stuff anymore? once the design is setup, contract out your specs and go.

said by bky:

If you really believe that you're smoking bad crack
nah, i make my own. higher quality :D

q.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21704988 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:26:14 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21704884
It's ALL marketing. Cisco has the staple because they got there first. While many companies don't have the cash or power to enter that arena, Google could if they wanted. The hardware could be (and is) made by anyone and re-branded. In fact, Cisco uses ghost manufacturers to produce most (if not all) of the gear they sell anyway.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21704884 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:11:13 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21704681 said by jhboricua:

Router appliances such as Vyatta provides features, performance, flexibility and price for the majority of businesses out there that Cisco and Juniper can't match.
but how long did it take to create the vyatta software?
i know that certainly *wasn't* overnight.

you are also assuming that google will just "rebrand" what has already been done. there are certainly examples out there, but what if they want to use "the google" from the ground up?

q.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21704681 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:41:28 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21704668
and cisco is more than a software company the hardware isn't some generic just its purpose built

and if you compair cisco to a software router with heavy testing you'll see butI doubt you could afford a 3845 or a 7613 for that matter

ya a lot of prople will come around and say hay this free software can beat such and such but if put to a real test then its not as likely as you think

and just try finding a PC that can even handle an OC-48 let alone a OC-768 and even less the 100Gbit fiber thats coming
it just woun't be able to so the software routers can't compete with the likes of the 7613 or the CRS-1]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21704668 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:39:40 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21704646 said by N3OGH:

Just tell me one thing. IS THE FLUX CAPACITOR FLUXING??? :D
only on the weekends. it brings down the network and people complain if they can't get their e-mail or their pr0n while at work.

:D

q. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21704646 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:37:14 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21704631 said by bky:

The reason they are expensive is because of the name and their ability to sit and spin gold for providers, it's not the hardware. Cisco is a software company, so is Google. You tell me which one you think is better.
no - cisco is *not* just a software designer. no other provider (outside of juniper) offer such flexibility and modularity in devices.
having toured the r&d department for some of the routing and switching fabric, i've seen what they do to test and retest their hardware between shock, rf, dust, etc. they stand behind their repuatation and what they make is *quality* gear.

i've seen their gear take heat, dust, shock, and years of sitting in a wall passing packets. the reason they make their gear expensive because they stand behind and make sure that their gear is as good as possible for the end customer.

(a) i'd love to see any x86 pc sit in a rack for years and just pass packets without failure.

(b) what would be the cost of your x86 box if it *had* the ability to handle high speed sonet links? can youx x86 pc handle 96 ports of gig poe copper, an fwsm firewall module, and a wism for wireless control? my cisco 6509 can and not even even blink. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21704631 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:34:10 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21704418
erx
gsr/asr
multiple sonet links
oc-48

Just tell me one thing. IS THE FLUX CAPACITOR FLUXING??? :D
--
Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power…]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21704418 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 15:56:30 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21703087 said by tubbynet:

moreover, the reason those cisco or juniper devices are expensive is the modularity.
The reason they are expensive is because of the name and their ability to sit and spin gold for providers, it's not the hardware. Cisco is a software company, so is Google. You tell me which one you think is better.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21703087 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:22:08 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21703082
I just don't see any major business using open source for a major router

and I'm quite happy with my 3745 w/NME-16ES-1G for my home]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21703082 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:19:56 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21703023 --
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21703023 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:10:34 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21702933 said by NetAdmin1:

Problem is that Google isn't using routers comparable to 7200 series Ciscos, they are using M120 class routers and up for their data centers. And just as discussed on NANOG, it turns out that can't build an open source, OTS hardware based router that can handle multiple 10Gbps circuits with the assorted mixture OC48+ circuits.Agreed, however that's more of a niche market. I was merely commenting on the assertion that "building routers of the caliber of Juniper and Cisco isn't an overnight or easy task." Router appliances such as Vyatta provides features, performance, flexibility and price for the majority of businesses out there that Cisco and Juniper can't match.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21702933 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:56:34 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21702729 said by jhboricua:

There are some high quality router software product based out of Linux at its core such as Vyatta which, when tested by The Tolly Group, already beats Cisco's 72xx and 28xx units in routing performance using commodity hardware.Problem is that Google isn't using routers comparable to 7200 series Ciscos, they are using M120 class routers and up for their data centers. And just as discussed on NANOG, it turns out that can't build an open source, OTS hardware based router that can handle multiple 10Gbps circuits with the assorted mixture OC48+ circuits.

You might be able to get a couple of GigE interfaces in a fast box, but then you are pretty limited as to where you can deploy them. Edge routing, probably, but core or border router, probably not.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21702729 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:22:49 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21702680 said by Frank:

I dont know, I really cant picture a standard atx pc being capable of handling routing and switching for multiple oc-48s.
qft!
many people want to hype the "open source" product lines. while i agree that on the consumer level, a cisco router is very overkill (though i have a 2811 at home) and is beyond the pricing ability of many people.
however, don't for one second think that google (in their core backbone) is using anything less than a juniper erx (which i believe is equivalent to a cisco gsr/asr). these routers *cannot* be beaten by a simple pc or even server class hardware.
moreover, the reason those cisco or juniper devices are expensive is the modularity. as Frank See Profile pointed out, i'd be curious to see multiple sonet links be routed through a typical x86 architecture. hell, i'd like to see the price point of a sonet card capable of oc-48 that could be slapped inside anything with x86 architecture.

q.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21702680 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:12:54 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21702551 said by knightmb:

said by NetAdmin1:

Does that mean my Youtube videos are going to get stuck in the dreaded buffering state even more so than now ?

On a serious note, does Google even have the talent to pull this off? Building routers of the caliber of Juniper and Cisco isn't an overnight or easy task.
The most expensive Cisco routers are often outdone by their open source counterparts on both price and hardware, so yeah, I think Google would smoke them in this area.

I can grab an old PC that runs about 233 MHz with about 64 MB of RAM, a few cheap NIC cards, load up some open source software and it does more, faster, than the thousand dollar counterparts.

From my own personal experience of course, I wouldn't pay that much for Cisco hardware when old hardware given a new life is so cheap and without the limitations/price. :D
I dont know, I really cant picture a standard atx pc being capable of handling routing and switching for multiple oc-48s. :p
--
At first I thought everyone on the highway was drunk but then I realized I was driving in Florida ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21702551 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:48:56 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21702469 7204VXR and 2821ISR units in routing performance using commodity hardware.

Since it is based Open Source software, there's nothing stopping Google from doing something similar.
--
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA *]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21702469 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:34:17 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21702460 said by NetAdmin1:

Does that mean my Youtube videos are going to get stuck in the dreaded buffering state even more so than now ?

On a serious note, does Google even have the talent to pull this off? Building routers of the caliber of Juniper and Cisco isn't an overnight or easy task.
The most expensive Cisco routers are often outdone by their open source counterparts on both price and hardware, so yeah, I think Google would smoke them in this area.

I can grab an old PC that runs about 233 MHz with about 64 MB of RAM, a few cheap NIC cards, load up some open source software and it does more, faster, than the thousand dollar counterparts.

From my own personal experience of course, I wouldn't pay that much for Cisco hardware when old hardware given a new life is so cheap and without the limitations/price. :D
--
Fight NebuAD and the like:
Click Here to pollute their data]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21702460 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:33:14 EDT Re: Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21702404 said by NetAdmin1:

On a serious note, does Google even have the talent to pull this off? Don't be surprised if the basis for this rumor comes from people leaving Cisco or Juniper or other router manufacturers and being hired by Google.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Google-routers-21702404 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:23:08 EDT Google routers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Google-routers-21702371
On a serious note, does Google even have the talent to pull this off? Building routers of the caliber of Juniper and Cisco isn't an overnight or easy task.
--
"This is a bus. You know how big a bus is?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Google-routers-21702371 Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:16:43 EDT