DaveNJ
No Fear
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| reply to Angrychair
Re: Nationwide infrastructure company....
said by Angrychair  :More regulation is always better in the long run. Without someone waiting to kick you in the ass for stepping out of line the world quickly spirals to the lowest common denominator. That is, if you're even alive to see it when it gets there. So forcing banks to loan to people who wouldnt or cant pay is good regulation in the long run. Did you learn nothing from the last year. I hope you make so serious money, so i can have some.
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Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff - Frank Zappa
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Angrychair
join:2000-09-20
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| said by DaveNJ :said by Angrychair :More regulation is always better in the long run. Without someone waiting to kick you in the ass for stepping out of line the world quickly spirals to the lowest common denominator. That is, if you're even alive to see it when it gets there. So forcing banks to loan to people who wouldnt or cant pay is good regulation in the long run. Did you learn nothing from the last year. I hope you make so serious money, so i can have some. You seem to be confused about what good regulation is. Good regulation is making sure things like credit default swaps are publicly disclosed.
I don't even know what you're talking about. The problem the country is in now has nothing to do with banks being forced to make bad loans (regardless of what rush might be telling you every afternoon) the problem the country has now is that mortgage lenders were way too eager to make bad loans and then pawn them off on someone else as solid mortgage backed securities.
But you're going way off topic. This is a discussion about national broadband and the advantages of a national infrastructure as opposed to the regional providers that provide substandard service right now. |
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DaveNJ
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| said by Angrychair :said by DaveNJ :said by Angrychair :More regulation is always better in the long run. Without someone waiting to kick you in the ass for stepping out of line the world quickly spirals to the lowest common denominator. That is, if you're even alive to see it when it gets there. So forcing banks to loan to people who wouldnt or cant pay is good regulation in the long run. Did you learn nothing from the last year. I hope you make so serious money, so i can have some. You seem to be confused about what good regulation is. Good regulation is making sure things like credit default swaps are publicly disclosed. I don't even know what you're talking about. The problem the country is in now has nothing to do with banks being forced to make bad loans (regardless of what rush might be telling you every afternoon) the problem the country has now is that mortgage lenders were way too eager to make bad loans and then pawn them off on someone else as solid mortgage backed securities. But you're going way off topic. This is a discussion about national broadband and the advantages of a national infrastructure as opposed to the regional providers that provide substandard service right now. Regulation is regulation, regardless of what your college professor told you. Why is that people are defaulting on home loans? Because they didn't pay.. See Community reinvestment act which removed banks abilities to decline loans to bad payers.
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Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff - Frank Zappa
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Angrychair
join:2000-09-20
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| The community reinvestment act isn't what caused the federal reserve bank to hold down interest rates in the face of a massive housing price bubble, and it isn't what caused lenders to give out massive no income no asset loans to people who didn't even have to prove they had any ability to pay a loan back. However, once again all of the loans wouldn't have caused the global meltdown if regulation were in place to stop companies from selling off bad loan commodities as if they were good loan commodities.
No matter what conservative talk radio may be telling you, regulation was the answer to solve what happened, not the culprit to blame. |
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KrK
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| reply to DaveNJ
said by DaveNJ :So forcing banks to loan to people who wouldnt or cant pay is good regulation in the long run. Did you learn nothing from the last year. Explain the regulation that forced banks to make bad loans. (Secret: There wasn't any.)
It was the removal of regulations and oversight that caused the problem; not over-regulation!
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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KrK
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3 edits | reply to DaveNJ
Contrary to what many conservatives say, bad sub-prime loans weren't the cause of the recent collapse on Wall St. They were a symptom, not the cause. In 1999 Congress repealed the Glass-Steagall Act as part of the Republican push on deregulation and "getting the Government out of the way of business." The Glass-Steagal act, among other things required separate roles for commercial banks (which for example were lenders and mortgage holders) and "Investment Banks" which dealt with things such as stocks and derivatives.
Prior to the repeal, commercial banks couldn't take high risks with the money that customers deposited, and these deposits were backed by the FDIC which guaranteed our deposits. Investment Banks (such as the failed Lehman brothers) could take risks for people who wanted to gamble on the Stock market and other investments. After the repeal, commercial banks were allowed to operate like and merge with Investment banks (and other financial companies too).
Then, in 2004, under guidance from the Administration, with the eager backing of Republicans in Congress and with the blessing of Alan Greenspan and others at the Fed, the Securities and Exchange commission changed the rules on how much money investment banks could use to buy and sell bundles of mortgages on the market.... previously, they'd been allowed to offer mortgages and buy/sell bundles based on 12 times the amount of deposits they had in their banks, a 12 to 1 ratio. The new rules expanded this to 30 to 1. Overnight, the mortgage financiers and lending companies had more then DOUBLE the money to lend then previously.... This isn't exactly printing money, but damn close..... If anything, IMHO this one single thing is the largest cause of this whole mess----- Massive, massive influx of $$$ to lend and the desire to make big profits by gambling with this "borrowed" money inflated the housing bubble--- there is no doubt. The SEC and Alan Greenspan argued that "Banks could be trusted" to invest wisely and self-regulate with removal of existing oversight. Greenspan now admits he and the SEC were wrong. The political agenda of deregulation, "Self-Regulation" and "Keep Government out of the 'free-market' agenda of the Republicans landed us squarely in this mess and that's why the same argument can NOT be trusted now.
This "The Government FORCED banks to make bad loans and caused the collapse" is a red herring and not accurate.
You can't simply "trust" companies and people to "do the right thing" or "Invest wisely". You have to regulate and monitor.
As for the "sub-prime" market:
Property values were soaring, banks didn't even care if the people they were loaning money to had a solid credit history because even a foreclosure wouldn't result in a loss with property values going up so strongly, and they had a red hot market for selling off the loans after they were made anyway.
Our current woes all have their roots in the Ideological agenda of the "Contract for America". De-regulation, removal of oversight. That's why we are here today. That and the fact we keep borrowing money like it's free....
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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pnh102
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| That's right. Capitalism is supremely evil and it failed. We need to just have the government run everything so it can never fail again. We just gotta totally demonize capitalism!
Capitalism would have fixed this banking "crisis" overnight had the banks that chose to make the bad loans simply been allowed to fail. The remaining banks would have learned to not do the same things the failed banks did, and life would continue.
I do agree with you that the current "crisis" isn't entirely the fault of things like the CRA... simply because there were many banks that did not lend money to people who were incapable of paying it back. However, capitalism swiftly and severely punishes companies which continually make bad business decisions. Now that we bailed out the failed banks, we can expect an even worse lending crisis.
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KrK
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| said by pnh102 :That's right. Capitalism is supremely evil and it failed. We need to just have the government run everything so it can never fail again. We just gotta totally demonize capitalism! Uh oh. Ran into a problem with being able to counter the facts and logic, eh? So have to result to extreme hyperbole? 
The point really is the a business with a goal of profits won't always make the best choice for long term good of even it's own interests. (Arg, bad sentence structure!)
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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pnh102
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| said by KrK :Uh oh. Ran into a problem with being able to counter the facts and logic, eh? So have to result to extreme hyperbole? But that's exactly what you and your pals are doing. You continue to insist that capitalism is a failed institution and only the government can fix it.
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Blagojevich / Madoff 2012! |
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KrK
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| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 : Now that we bailed out the failed banks, we can expect an even worse lending crisis. Actually, you are absolutely correct.
But I think the crisis that's coming is the big granddaddy of them all. Our Government and our citizenry cannot continue borrowing money from the rest of the world much longer. You see our dollar dropping---- countries like China are beginning to say "Hmmm.... maybe we shouldn't buy these bonds.... this is beginning to look like a potentially bad risk."
And who can blame them?
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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KrK
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1 edit | reply to pnh102
Now where did I say that?
I don't think Capitalism overall is the problem. I guess if I had to narrow it down I would say that "Un-restrained self-interest" is really the main problem. |
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Fox McCloud
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|  reply to Angrychair
said by Angrychair :No matter what conservative talk radio may be telling you, regulation was the answer to solve what happened, not the culprit to blame. actually, no it's not; regulation got us into this mess as did not adhering to contractual agreements.
People are also ignoring the elephant in the room in regards to the current mess; ultimately it goes back to the regulator of all regulators in the US economy; the Federal Reserve System. Bad legislation in combination with artificially low interest rates, set by the Fed, is what caused this crisis; there's been a plethora of artificial wealth generated off of this mess, and when it started disappearing, the government rushed in to attempt to re-inflate the bubble (and the government, from recent statements is apparently wanting to continue to re-inflate the housing bubble). Then there's the whole system of banking to contend with, whereby the banking system, collectively, can generate 9x more money than as was originally put into circulation by the Federal Reserve System...all in all, you have a recipe for an extremely volatile and unstable monetary structure that (when combined with regulation of any sort, whether 'good' or bad) creates the booms, busts, recessions (and coming) depression....it's called the business cycle, I'm sure you're aware...and it only exists thanks to hindrances of the market-place. |
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fiberguy
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| reply to Angrychair
"I don't even know what you're talking about. The problem the country is in now has nothing to do with banks being forced to make bad loans (regardless of what rush might be telling you every afternoon) the problem the country has now is that mortgage lenders were way too eager to make bad loans and then pawn them off on someone else as solid mortgage backed securities."
Then if you don't know what he's talking about, maybe you should remain quiet.
Fanny and Freddie were train wrecks. It most certainly played a HUGE part in the melt-down of the credit market. I won't even give you the benefit of an education, but it does make me sick to see people spewing talking points that were generated by people that were clueless.
I'll just write you off as someone that's friends with Barney Frank..
DaveNJ is not off topic.. it ALL has everything to do with 'national broadband' becuase it more of government trying to be the solution when it is ALWAYS the problem when it tried to get involved in the free market.
There is nothing sub-standard about what's being pushed out right now. If you want to know why they are tightening down, ... just think about when it started and what helped back it. The Government started to get involved and they did exactly what I'd expect them to.. control their interests.
What you are missing here is that you and your cronies somehow think that broadband is a right, it's not. You think that you're entitled to speeds 10 times faster by now in the short period of time the internet has been around, for far less. You've got spoiled brat mentality is what you have.. sounds like a harsh way to say it, but it's the only way to describe your mentality.
Repeat after me.. "BROADBAND IS NOT A RIGHT!" |
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fiberguy
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| reply to Angrychair
said by Angrychair :No matter what conservative talk radio may be telling you, regulation was the answer to solve what happened, not the culprit to blame. And I suppose that the liberal talking points are accurate? I'm neither liberal or conservative.. I know that's hard to sheeple to understand becuase there is not simply two ways to think. However, on the liberal side of the isle right now, I've not seen SO much CRAP in my life spewing out of Queen Pelosi and Price Reed's mouth right now. I feel for Obama since he can't even do his job becuase he's a lame duck already to those two morons. Anything he tries to veto will only get passed into law by the majority vote! I am just curious, AngryChair.. in 2001 to 2009, how many times did YOU use the word "RUBBER STAMP CONGRESS" when describing congress to Bush?
Your arguments that you make here truly show just how clueless your points are. Even Democrats know that Barney Frank was part of Freddy and Fanny.. own up already and stop your ignorance to the facts.
Actually, fox is very right but also missed something.
It was the regulation that put us in this mess.. AND, consumer greed! WOW!! I went there.. YES,... greed is able to come from the consumer sector too! God forbid! |
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fiberguy
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join:2005-05-20 | reply to KrK
"Explain the regulation that forced banks to make bad loans. (Secret: There wasn't any.)"
Talk to Barney Frank.. seriously, banks were not forced? What do you think Freddy and Fanny were for? |
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Angrychair
join:2000-09-20
Jacksonville, FL | reply to fiberguy
Personal insults won't win any debates. Honestly your post isn't worth replying to. If I got under your skin so badly try not to let the world know it. |
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KrK
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| reply to fiberguy
No where was any rule, law, or anything else that said "Go out and gamble on loans to people that are highly risky."
In fact, the so called "sub-prime" market itself is an acknowledgement that some people are higher risk, and therefore they pay higher rates.
Many banks continued so observe the fundamentals, income, job history, stability, etc and they did fine albeit weren't as profitable over the last few years--- but they also don't need a bailout now.
This "The Government forced banks to make bad loans" is a major distortion of the truth. It's scapegoat-ism and politics at it's worst. Alan Greenspan admitted he was wrong--- why can't the republicans? OH. Because then they'd be admitting fault. Can't have that, can we? It must somehow be the Government's fault, and therefore we can then try and pin the blame for the collapse on the Democrats. Pure politics.
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"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
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uid1307457
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| reply to DaveNJ
said by DaveNJ :said by Angrychair :More regulation is always better in the long run. Without someone waiting to kick you in the ass for stepping out of line the world quickly spirals to the lowest common denominator. That is, if you're even alive to see it when it gets there. So forcing banks to loan to people who wouldnt or cant pay is good regulation in the long run. Did you learn nothing from the last year. I hope you make so serious money, so i can have some. banks did that on their own. |
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uid1307457
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| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :That's right. Capitalism is supremely evil and it failed. We need to just have the government run everything so it can never fail again. We just gotta totally demonize capitalism! Capitalism would have fixed this banking "crisis" overnight had the banks that chose to make the bad loans simply been allowed to fail. The remaining banks would have learned to not do the same things the failed banks did, and life would continue. I do agree with you that the current "crisis" isn't entirely the fault of things like the CRA... simply because there were many banks that did not lend money to people who were incapable of paying it back. However, capitalism swiftly and severely punishes companies which continually make bad business decisions. Now that we bailed out the failed banks, we can expect an even worse lending crisis. unless your being sarcastic, which I hope, you have no idea about any political systems. |
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