| Next level - licenced backhauls I have 6 backhauls fed from my noc, and 4 APs on 5ghz in the same place, I'm having self interference and antenna spacing issues and can't make them work good. One of those backhauls feeds another distribution points wich feeds 4 other backhauls.
My kapacity needs are right now are one backhaul 15-20mbps feeding the remote distribution point, other 5-10mbps feeding remote pops. And I hardly can make them work with 802.11a equipment.
Whatever capacity I get when I install and test a backhaul, that capacity will cut in half in peak hours ( im guessing interference from other links which are more active in peak hours, and APs in 5ghz which are very active inpeak hours).
If i work with more antenna separation and more channel planing I can make them work for a while, but I need a long term solution.
My longest link is 12km, some of the remote pops are in the same direction from NOC (5-10*) point-to-two points come to mind if there is such thing in licensed backhauls.
As far as bandwidth is concerned 20 mbps for most links is enough and one 40mbps for one link feeding another distribution point. Also there should be option for later upgrade to higher speed with not much hassle.
I don't have any experience with licenced backhauls , so i would like to hear some of experienced users, what would be the most economical way to migrate.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance. |
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| Personally, I'd just use Alvarion VL or Motorola for backhauls. Licensed is a good idea but for the cost...? |
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| Licensed gear is cheap now. An Alvarion B100 is almost half the price of a licensed link with much less capacity and it will still interfere with your PtMP network.
Trango and Dragonwave are currently very competitive with each other. Both have IDU/ODU and single unit designs based on your needs. The Trango Giga line doesn't return to the highest modulation after running at a lower modulation, so you'll need to spec it for 5 9's and just leave it at the highest modulation. The Apex line does not have this problem.
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Comtrain Certified Tower Climber |
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| reply to ponline
i don't now what spectrum is avaible in your country licenced
but if you can get something in 18ghz band ore in the 34ghz band.I suggest alcoma ore sagem alcoma isn't too cheap but verry good. But it all depends how is they licence pricing modell in your contry. Here i pay about 90€ a year + 20€ extra
per mhz channel spacing. |
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| reply to ponline
We are using Cielo and love them. The gear The gear is a little more then Trango gear but still quite cheap. They license their gear at 20, 50, 100 ... so you can start out with a 20mb link and upgrade it to 50 or 100 etc. Make sure to get enough frequency to do this if you plan on upgrading the link. They use an IDU/ODU setup which I prefer. The hardware does exactly what they say it will do. They have been awesome with support even when it had nothing to do with them. We ordered the wrong ODUs for our first link and hung one of them before we caught the issue. They had no problem cross shipping us a replacement. at no charge. Feel free to PM if you would like any info on the process. |
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| reply to ponline
Thank you for the information.
Trango is brand that has been discussed a lot here, and i believe has some good reputacion. In other hand i haven't heard about Cielo much, but im going to search about them.
Also a friend recommended a company with very good prices, www.saftehnika.com anyone has any experience with their equipment. They offer, 34, 108 and 155mbps links, in various frequencies. |
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 TomS_Git-r-donePremium,MVM
join:2002-07-19
Ireland
kudos:1
3 edits | reply to ponline
In the networks I look after we have been using Alcatel radios.
They definitely wouldnt be the cheapest, but seriously, were talking about one of the telecomms markets biggest, oldest and most experienced players. They are built to support the functionality that big telco players want, though some could argue that this is too over the top for the smaller WISP players who just want a more plug and play radio solution.
We have some radios which have been in service for a good chunk of 10 years now and never a hiccup (9400 LX/UX). Those radios provide an E3's worth of capacity (32mbit primary channel with 2mbit wayside channel = 34mbit) in a 28mhz channel. I think they only operate at 4QAM.
Just recently we have deployed 9500MXCs which we have running at 155mbit at 28mhz with I think 128QAM. See my thread here for some piccies: »Microwave repeater/add/drop site
And now we'll likely be using 9500 MPRs almost exclusively. We just got some in today (apparently were the first in Asia Pac to have them woot). These things can run at 256QAM and feature adaptive modulation so they will drop back through modulation modes as signal fade becomes an issue, and will ramp up the modulation as it gets better.
Weve purchased some 18ghz ODUs along with the MPRs and using a 55mhz channel we can get 300mbps. I'll be grabbing some pics of the MPRs tomorrow, but in the mean time you can see some here: »b.snnap.net/photos/network/alcat···-lab.jpg
Just wait till AMD Phreak gets here. He will confirm just how awesomely kick arse the MPRs really are. 
And finally, a new very long haul network we have just started to build will use 9600LSY radios. These are BIG. They are practically an entire 45RU rack in themselves, though they are only about 30cm deep. See pictures here: »b.snnap.net/photos/network/alcat···lsys.jpg
Those 9600's arent for the faint hearted. Totally indoor solution, with waveguide from the radio to the back of the dish. They do upto 8 x STM1s, so you need additional gear to transport ethernet over them, or aggregate the STM1s.
The nice thing about most split systems (i.e. IDU/ODU type setups) is that the ODU doesnt really have any brains. It just performs frequency conversions. The modem will send/receive data to/from the ODU at a much lower mhz frequency, and the ODU will convert it to your operational frequency. All of the modulation and hard work is done on the modem card in the IDU which means that changing frequencies generally just means swapping ODUs and updating your config.
IMO you get what you pay for, and with the Alcatel gear, you get top quality s#!t. 
</sales pitch> |
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2 edits | MMMMM.... MPR microwaves.
Those are SWEEEET!
It basically is a WAN router with microwave interfaces, and any combo of WAN interface you think you want to throw at it.
You want to transport it, go for it. You want to route the backbone in any combination? It will do it.
The MPR's will soon have even more integration with the Alcatel routers as the MPR and I think it was, the 6800 or something chassis are common platform.
*drool*
And the LSY's are uber too. I have no experience with them but from speaking with my friends at AL/LU they are kickbutt units. They are dream radios for long haul systems. Think of them as an evolution from the old AT&T Long Lines days. Everything Collins Microwave had come up with over the years is what you see there.
Of course let's not forget the MDR8000's while we are speaking of Collins. MDR's if you can afford them are a perfect unit for entry-level users who may need to transport any type of TDM or Ethernet traffic. They are costly to deploy in terms of transmission lines (T-LINE, flanges, couplers, flex-sections, etc) but they can be aggregated to deliver 300Mbps of FDX througput at significant distances (6GHz) or short haul distances.
If your budget is very tight, I'd focus on products from Dragonwave. If you have more of a budget and require interfaces that the rest of the telco world uses, look at Alcatel or NERA. Both Alcatel and NERA are big players in the backhaul arena. I guess if you want to take a few steps backwards you could use Harris....
EDIT:
[/sales_engineer]
--
"No job is so important, and no service is so urgent that we cannot take the time to perform our work safely."
-- AT&T, Your World, Destroyed.
--Safety One Tower Rescue Certified
--LLigetfa:"Wimax is like teenage sex. Everyone talks about doing it." |
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EMC_guy
join:2007-10-13
Sharbot Lake, ON | said by AMD Phreak:If you have more of a budget and require interfaces that the rest of the telco world uses, look at Alcatel or NERA. This is an in-accurate representation of the global market where deployed base of Harris and Ceragon licensed radios dwarf all other brands!
Remember that Dragonwave, Nera, Trango, etc are relative newcomers, while old-hands like Alcatel will be moving away from peripheral products (which include microwave) to concentrate on core business similar to what Lucent and Nortel had already done but a bit too late for their well being. |
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| said by EMC_guy:said by AMD Phreak:If you have more of a budget and require interfaces that the rest of the telco world uses, look at Alcatel or NERA. This is an in-accurate representation of the global market where deployed base of Harris and Ceragon licensed radios dwarf all other brands! Remember that Dragonwave, Nera, Trango, etc are relative newcomers, while old-hands like Alcatel will be moving away from peripheral products (which include microwave) to concentrate on core business similar to what Lucent and Nortel had already done but a bit too late for their well being. I'm simply stating that both Alcatel and NERA offer interfaces that are not native 802.3.
--
"No job is so important, and no service is so urgent that we cannot take the time to perform our work safely."
-- AT&T, Your World, Destroyed.
--Safety One Tower Rescue Certified
--LLigetfa:"Wimax is like teenage sex. Everyone talks about doing it." |
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EMC_guy
join:2007-10-13
Sharbot Lake, ON
1 edit | said by AMD Phreak:I'm simply stating that both Alcatel and NERA offer interfaces that are not native 802.3. Dozens of brands offer TDM interfaces!!! You wrote exactly "Alcatel and NERA are big players in the backhaul arena. I guess if you want to take a few steps backwards you could use Harris...." which is quite different than any telco microwave professionals would write!
Anticipating further skepticism, I provide link to a recent $2.8M contract to replace Alcatel with Harris - an action becoming too common world-wide! »www.cap-az.com/images/meetings/3···ment.pdf
"The microwave system consists of almost entirely all Alcatel products, specifically MDR 5000, 26000 and 8000 series. The 5000 and 6000 series have been at end of life for some time, and new spare parts are not available. There have been reliability problems on all three series throughout the system’s life. Parts, repairs and associated travel time and helicopter flights are becoming increasingly expensive.
In 2005, CAWCD purchased a pair of Harris radios for evaluation. These radios have performed error-free since that time. CAWCD also used Harris radios prior to the acquisition of the Alcatel system in 1996. The latest offering from Alcatel is still the MDR 8000.
Staff recommends replacing the Alcatel radios with Harris radios ... " |
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| We'll take this conversation offline ok? It's messing the thread up. |
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lutfulPremium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON Reviews:
 ·TekSavvy DSL
| reply to ponline
said by ponline:Trango is brand that has been discussed a lot here, and i believe has some good reputacion. Most of those discussions would have been about Trango's Prism chipset based unlicensed band products. They introduced licensed frequency products very recently.
said by ponline:i haven't heard about Cielo much Cielo Networks, the whole company, was founded quite recently (in May, 2006). FYI it took Ottawa's Dragonwave almost 4 years to get name recognition in the USA.
said by ponline:Also a friend recommended a company with very good prices, www.saftehnika.com anyone has any experience with their equipment. They offer, 34, 108 and 155mbps links, in various frequencies. Maybe your friend is using you to highlight this company? 
FYI they are also relatively new (established 1999) but they purchased Viking whose TDM radios used by some Scandinavian GSM operators. Ceragon, which is used widely in Eastern Europe, would be a better choice at similar price range. |
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| said by lutful:Maybe your friend is using you to highlight this company? Yeah right.... do you have to be picky every time?
My friend doesn't even know about this forum !
Actually, he runs very big wireless network located very near to me, and have several SAF links deployed. He is very satisfied with them. I also found out that I have their representatives in my country (»www.telefonservis.com), so it makes things much simpler concerning shipping and installation.
p.s I guess next thing you will say is that Telefonservis payed me for advertisement. |
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lutfulPremium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
2 edits | said by ponline:he runs very big wireless network located very near to me, and have several SAF links deployed. Very big would be Mobtel or Telekom Srbija?
Anyway "several SAF links" do not sound as impressive as the hundreds of Ericsson being deployed over there. I found a Djordje Paunovic who has done way too many microwave projects in Serbia - maybe he could give you an expert opinion on Ceragon before you plunk out a few thousand euros on SAF.
»telekomunikacije.etf.bg.ac.yu/DjP/ |
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1 edit | reply to ponline
I am still on the decision process, and also have to look at licensing costs.
Have in mind that i don't run a network like carriers and don't have their budget, I don't need TDM, or other cellular networking goodies. IP is all that i need and cost is important.
Doing some research about cost of licensing and links i started to loose ambition and I might end up using unlicensed canopy or alvarion.
luful, I'm not talking about carriers here that you mentioned. I know what they use and you forgot to mention NERA. I was talking about WISP networks which i know and what they use.
You are very well informed of everything and you know how to use google too . Thanks for the info but i can't call or knock on any ones (dr.prof's)door and bother them with my question (which i can find answers with a little effort) without having any prior relation with them. I also wouldn't think it is good exposing someones name here without their permission. |
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| If it is IP only I would roll with Dragonwave as they are very inexpensive and perform well from what I am told. Also in my own research/design I've found NERA to be very affordable too.
The main thing that causes people to shy away from licensed links as you have found, is the licensing fees.
If you really want to look into the suppliers, give them a call or email them and have them run a single path for you so you can get a BOM put together and get an idea of what the entire link costs.
--
"No job is so important, and no service is so urgent that we cannot take the time to perform our work safely."
-- AT&T, Your World, Destroyed.
--Safety One Tower Rescue Certified
--LLigetfa:"Wimax is like teenage sex. Everyone talks about doing it." |
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EMC_guy
join:2007-10-13
Sharbot Lake, ON
1 edit | said by AMD Phreak:The main thing that causes people to shy away from licensed links as you have found, is the licensing fees. I do not know about Serbia, but this is not a big issue in many Eastern European countries, and of course Asia and Africa.
Use a competent EMC contractor to do a full spectrum survey before choosing frequency - regulators in some countries so inept (or corrupt) that they have assign conflicting frequencies to neighbouring rooftops! |
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| reply to ponline
I installed 4 Trango Giga11 systems back in December. I ended up going with Trango because they blew the doors off of everyone with their pricing.
The systems I installed have 240 MBps Full Dux capacity...all done with a software upgrade key.
I guess it really all depends on your application if you want to go with licensed or not. I went licensed because it was the companies backhaul for all their clients. I wasn't going to trust unlicensed links for this kind of application.
The support I got from Trango was very good...no complaints at all there.
The only issue I ran in to...was the network guy couldn't figure out how to get the "ring" operating properly on the network(which of course he blamed on me and the radios)...I no longer work there because of the network guys and their idiocy.
The Motorola radios are great units....pretty much set and forget....but they have a way higher price point.
Nera is another good company as well...the same with Dragonwave. |
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lutfulPremium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
| reply to ponline
said by ponline:luful, I'm not talking about carriers here that you mentioned. I know what they use and you forgot to mention NERA. I was talking about WISP networks which i know and what they use. I get it - you know local WISPs are using SAF or NERA, so you want to choose one of them. I already commented on SAF (your first choice) so let's check NERA's own words to their investors: we have quite small 3% market share and we have been laying off people. So pick SAF since it was your first choice. |
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