Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth | reply to Morbideath
Re: Archivis' 3.1 DK Spec Theorycraft Thread
Unholy is still king of Aoe tanking. Wandering Plague and Unholy Blight are killer. |
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morbideath
@af.mil
| strictly for instances i can not disagree, just seems like a waste to me, since Blood is by far more beneficial for raid tanking and with the buff to bloodboil, a somewhat descent tank should have no problem in heroics as blood either. overall i have to vote blood. but i do agree, for heroics/strictly aoe unholy does have a leg up |
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Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Even in raids, Unholy is still a strong AoE. The issue with Bloodboil is that you need to first spread diseases. What about areas where adds come up? What if your blood runes are on cooldown when that occurs? Wandering plague ticks, Unholy Blight ticks, with Frost Presence threat amplifiers means that if an add is summoned, created, or spawned while you're in the middle of things, you're covered.
That's something that Blood doesn't have is chaotic add management. Blood's Bloodboil is fine if you can collect the adds right away and get to work, but if adds come in mid rotation, then what? |
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JohnnyBoy
join:2009-03-04
1 edit | reply to Archivis
said by Archivis  :Unholy is still king of Aoe tanking. Wandering Plague and Unholy Blight are killer. The AoE crown appears to have passed to Frost. I have never been out-dpsed on AoE pulls by any other DK spec since 3.1.
EDIT: Read incorrectly - for tanking Frost / Unholy are pretty competitive though I still feel Frost has the stronger AoE potential along with AoE frost fever for damage reduction. |
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morbideath
@af.mil | reply to Archivis
bloodboil no longer requires diseases to do dmg |
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Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
·Verizon FIOS
| reply to JohnnyBoy
said by JohnnyBoy :said by Archivis :Unholy is still king of Aoe tanking. Wandering Plague and Unholy Blight are killer. The AoE crown appears to have passed to Frost. I have never been out-dpsed on AoE pulls by any other DK spec since 3.1. The issue isn't necessarily being out DPS'd, it's about threat. Of course, DPS with amplified threat does mean threat, but the majority of threat comes from Howling Blast, which is on a cooldown.
What happens when you blow Howling Blast and three adds appear? What's your method for getting threat then?
Take all three specs. All your runes are on cooldown, what do you do?
Unholy is the only spec with passive AoE. The answer for Unholy is to simply drag your pack of adds over to the new adds and just stand in their way. Wandering Plague and Unholy Blight will pick up enough threat for your runes to come back off cooldown to start adding additional threat. |
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morbideath
@af.mil
| reply to JohnnyBoy
frost aoe dps does outweigh unholy when you get to endgame situations imo, we were discussing tanking atm, side not to my post about bloodboil.
Again i am not denying that Unholy is the better aoe tanking, i am just saying AoE tanking is still very manageable as a bloodspec, and the tradeoff for the (IMO) superior single target or boss tanking.
my typical pull rotation for aoe goes DND, deathgrip, IT, PS, BB, BB at this point i have more than enough aggro to start my rotation and tab through the targets, with the use of deathstrike i always have more than enough deathrunes to pop a couple BB's if needed to pick up adds, just sub them in place of HS |
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JohnnyBoy
join:2009-03-04
1 edit | reply to Archivis
Noted. I didn't catch the tanking comment until after I posted.
The AoE damage potential of Unholy along with passive effects makes it a strong tanking contender.
My argument with Frost is you're casting 3 AoE damage attacks per 10 seconds - HB (ideally glyphed) & 2x Blood Boil. This provides great damage reduction and snap aggro on AoE pulls without any kind of prep work at all. Alternatively you could D&D -> HB -> BB for great results where mobs are streaming in. Whichever rotation you use there simply isn't a great deal of "downtime" between AoE attacks where a passive ability becomes all that useful.
My tanking style focuses more on survival and the increased damage reduction provided by a glyphed HB on AoE without any kind of prep-work is fantastic.
I have no experience AoE tanking as Blood for the time being. |
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Krisnatharok
0311 Scout
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Sterling, VA
| I have OT'd on Noth in frost spec and it is frustrating when DG is on CD and I just blew HB skeletons when more appear. It's probable that Unholy is the preferred OT/add control tanking spec. As far as damage reduction, though, you can't beat frost. Dipping into the lava + acclimation + any sort of fire resist buff = OS on easymode as a tank. The +25% strength from Unbreakable Armor doesn't hurt either, especially if you can combine it with Greatness or a blood DK's Abomination's Might.
The only other thing worth mentioning in Unholy is AMZ, but Acclimation is kind of similar and is up a lot. |
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NICK79
join:2008-11-08
Cincinnati, OH
| reply to Archivis
»www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xm···03103120
what do u think about this crazy build i came up with - its aoe unholy - i dropped the wandering plague to grab ability to turn my unholy/frost runes into death runes
rotation would be -
1 - DnD,Ps,It,Pest-
2 - Ds,Ds,UB,Rt,Pest BBx7 ( i got over 3k dps for about 6-7 seconds straight on 3 test dummies in tanking gear ) than repeat line 2 skipping UB and Rune Tap for IF and DC dumps
its sort of target friendly since only 4/15 attacks are single target and when repeting line 2 only 2/9 will be single target - the idea is use as many aoe attacks as possable
u want single target tanking with unholy for bosses..not sure about end game yet but for now i Army of the Dead at the begining of every boss fight (speced for 10 min cool down, and some i may AofD in the middle if theres a spot i know ahead atime about) keeps boss busy long enough to lay your stuff and grab a good agroo lead and the army always holds top agroo till than - may even burn thru to a frist phase quickly
ive only played with it but am very hopfull |
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Krisnatharok
0311 Scout
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Sterling, VA
| Can't see it at work... but wandering plague is an important part of AoE aggro in an Unholy build. You don't need to turn F/U runs to Death as Unholy revolves around Scourge Strike. You don't want to scatter all your aggro around minimally--you'll nearly always have a core group of targets closer to death that you will always have diseases on. Spread your diseases to the new adds, death coil the new ones once or twice, and Wandering Plague/Unholy Blight will do the rest. Gargoyle is still good for helping you finish off the mobs fast enough that you don't lose control of the adds.
Use of Army of the Dead varies on bosses. I hate using it at all on dragon bosses. In OS I usually only use it if on add control--they typically never get to the raid boss as I force them onto the enraged adds and usually get killed off by the waves. I typically keep it as a card up my sleeve in case things get too hectic. Its utility is more limited to 5-man heroics than raids.
If you want single target tanking AND AoE tanking, then dual spec frost or blood and then unholy. You cannot be a master of both--you'll fail at everything then.
My only concern about tanking adds as Frost is how long your aggro will last. Sure, you can d&d, HB, BB, but if you're talking heroic raid adds, and each one has a considerable healthpool, how long will you hold aggro versus pure dps AoE nuking the adds? I'd rather stick with Unholy for permanent, continuous AoE threat.
But as far as single target threat goes, I think you're going to have a hard time matching the threat of a Blood tank's own heals (they generate threat just like a healer does) + Dancing Rune Weapon buffed by Hysteria. Put the Greatness Card on him and you're talking about an incredible threat generator. |
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Warrok
@dnd.ca
| reply to Archivis
Ive tanked the adds in the arena during the gauntlet in ulduar as mainly frost ,BUT got the reduced cooldown on DND and the glyph that goes with it.It was actually the first time i have seen DND being as usefull and that HB really didnt have a chance to make the group survive this boss. All i need to do is DG if any add gets out of range.So DND is really a charm on reduce cd,plus i can always use HB if really its needed but DND give enough threat that all i need to do is sit there take the dmg and let the dps AoE them down while i drop dnd every 10 seconds.
PS. I got a few enchants that give me +atk power plus many STR gems so i realy put out the threat.I prioritize even as a tank(OT)str over any other stat,(once i have it the the 545 def cap) and i still got 29.4 k hp unbuff which is more then enough.
PLZ all you dk tanks out there dont do what i see often and go put stam gems everywhere and stam enchants on everything. |
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Warrok
@dnd.ca | reply to Archivis
One more thing its a waste of a dk going for single target threat!!!!!!!We are built to be the one getting all the adds and crap...let the Bear or the warrior be MT and leave the add job the pallies and DKs |
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Morbideath
@af.mil
| Are you high? seriously, Majority of all the end game raids are dps races, more often then not they opt the warrior, bear or pally to tank the adds and put the dk on the main boss Because a dk can put out more dps which makes you more efficient to main tank because you generate more dps.Also Hysteria and dancing rune weapon are a waste of talent points because they are not needed to hold threat if you are spamming rune strike and have it glyphed, i have tanked 10/25man OS, 10/25 Vault(New), 10/25 Mally, 10/25 naxx, and also downed the first quarter of 10/25 ulduar. In situations that require 2 tanks i generally MT cause i do more boss dps, situations that require 1 tank i switch to my dps gear and spec and have at it while the warrior tanks. dancing rune weapon is just a straight waste IMO and hysteria is more efficient to use on your best dps if you do have them. Blood MT is by far most efficient for single target bosses. i will not argure add control falls to unholy |
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morbideath
@af.mil | reply to Warrok
note, def cap is 540 |
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NICK79
join:2008-11-08
Cincinnati, OH
| reply to Krisnatharok
said by Krisnatharok :Can't see it at work... but wandering plague is an important part of AoE aggro in an Unholy build. You don't need to turn F/U runs to Death as Unholy revolves around Scourge Strike. You don't want to scatter all your aggro around minimally--you'll nearly always have a core group of targets closer to death that you will always have diseases on. Spread your diseases to the new adds, death coil the new ones once or twice, and Wandering Plague/Unholy Blight will do the rest. Gargoyle is still good for helping you finish off the mobs fast enough that you don't lose control of the adds. Use of Army of the Dead varies on bosses. I hate using it at all on dragon bosses. In OS I usually only use it if on add control--they typically never get to the raid boss as I force them onto the enraged adds and usually get killed off by the waves. I typically keep it as a card up my sleeve in case things get too hectic. Its utility is more limited to 5-man heroics than raids. If you want single target tanking AND AoE tanking, then dual spec frost or blood and then unholy. You cannot be a master of both--you'll fail at everything then. My only concern about tanking adds as Frost is how long your aggro will last. Sure, you can d&d, HB, BB, but if you're talking heroic raid adds, and each one has a considerable healthpool, how long will you hold aggro versus pure dps AoE nuking the adds? I'd rather stick with Unholy for permanent, continuous AoE threat. But as far as single target threat goes, I think you're going to have a hard time matching the threat of a Blood tank's own heals (they generate threat just like a healer does) + Dancing Rune Weapon buffed by Hysteria. Put the Greatness Card on him and you're talking about an incredible threat generator. sorry i should have use a work friend calculator - I've given this build some thought
I understand the importance of Scourge Strike and did grab it in the talent tree to use for single target when needed but heres my thinking and why i would be willing to lose wandering plauge - healers ( in general )are having an issue IMO healing DK's - Im getting alot of avoidance going on and it "tricks" them because when i get hit a few times they r throwing these big heals on me thinking i need it and thinking they have time to give it when whats happening is while i wait on the cast time for the big heal i'll hit a string of no dodge/parry's and die - and if they get it off i have to deal with the fact that my healer just crit healed me for 14k+ and now some of my adds im tanking want to go say hi, the Death Strike helps me with that in more ways than one health/threat and will than give me 4 Death ruins
with this build shortly after the fight starts about the time your knee deep in adds/mobs/and damage you have aoe options - if im losing threat i can pop 7 BB if needed and there instant cast/ u dont need to take time to target anyone/ they do damage now if u have a disease on them or not and mine are criting for around 1400 ( w/ 3 diseases ) - and with 7 of them @ instant cast u could sustain alot of dps/threat over a long peroid of time, if new adds show up popping pestalince takes a blood rune so u got plenty of them and BB will hit them anyway ( just not for as much )
what i want out of my build is to beable to spreed diseases when ever needed ( not something i want to have to wait on a cooldown ) and pop aoe dmg/threat whenever needed - and the runic power from all those BB insure UB stays up and IF and runic strike stays striking ( which i have macro to every other button i touch ) but thats about all im using my RP for - anything extra is nice but UB/IF/RS are the bread and butter
ive found that with a regular unholy rotation u have periods of down time where theres nothing u can do, so no matter what ur rotation is if something unexpected happens ( and all tanks know that feeling ) u have many instant options
its just an idea for a build and im going to try it for a min to see if there are any cons i havnt forseen or any pros i didnt expect but with the use of ruins over mana/rage i feel the this build will give more options to DK's for those "what now" situations, I am worred about losing wandering plauge but well see the impact after more test runs
think of the boss fight in UK where those adds keep coming - if they spawn during a bad spot in ur rotation it could be a few ticks before u have a ruin avalible to spread a disease or something and ur wandering plague/ UB may not beable to keep them from going to the healer when there throwing those big heals on us
this may not be endgame but im not ready for endgame yet - in my mind im useing this in 5 man content to gear for endgame - when i get there i may need to rethink things well see |
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Krisnatharok
0311 Scout
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Sterling, VA
| only thing I can say is that if you want to use Death Strike you should be going blood. You're gimping yourself if you don't. And the end-game builds are just fine for heroics--start getting used to one now, or switch to a leveling/tanking build that takes improved rune tap for a huge DIY heal twice a minute. |
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Quickdamage
@tjxcos.com | reply to Archivis
Just to let you guys know, Army of The Dead doesn't taunt raid bosses, so you can pop them whenever you want to on raid dragon bosses. |
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Warrok
@dnd.ca
| reply to Morbideath
Im not going to say your wrong but i have a different style of tanking then you+ ive been in this guild from the start to be the OT to have the job of getting adds and switch gear and stances when needed.And really if your raid dps does the job you shouldnt be affraid of failing any dps race.Just that i saw that being OT is much better and if it ever happens EX:the concil in ulduar where at start you neeed 2 tanks then on last mob only 1 ,while once 2 first are down i switch stance to actully help out the dps.
If your to be MT of your guild then do not concentrate for AoE dps but if you have the option go for OT since it makes better use of our class |
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warrok
@dnd.ca | reply to morbideath
Def cap for boss mobs(lvl 83)hes 545 if im correct and 540 for heroics |
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