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jadebangle
Premium
join:2007-05-22
00000
kudos:1

Not much improvement over docsis 2.0

Even with docsis 3.0 most of us will never see speed of 38/38 offered the cheap company will never allow anyone to have decent upload speed
Its always 10/1, 20/2, 30/3 massive on the download side, pathetic on the upload side
Just because its capable of 100mbps symmetric doesn't mean that cable isp will quickly offer these speed for the average user. The best they can do is 50/10 for 139.95-149.95
This will probably go on for another 5 years before 100/20 pops up for 199.95
Happy paying extreme price to have decent broadband connection



cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7

2 recommendations

said by jadebangle:

Its always 10/1, 20/2, 30/3 massive on the download side, pathetic on the upload side
Please give an example where 2 or 3mbit upload isn't adequate for a residential connection.

Yes, you may be uploading all those 8megapixel images to flickr or posting your kids 2 hour birthday party video to youtube. All those things can benefit from faster speeds and would be nice, but 2 or 3mbits is adequate.

Don't get me wrong, faster is always nicer, but the overwhelming majority of users barely use their upstream now.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2

said by cdru:

said by jadebangle:

Its always 10/1, 20/2, 30/3 massive on the download side, pathetic on the upload side
Please give an example where 2 or 3mbit upload isn't adequate for a residential connection.

Yes, you may be uploading all those 8megapixel images to flickr or posting your kids 2 hour birthday party video to youtube. All those things can benefit from faster speeds and would be nice, but 2 or 3mbits is adequate.

Don't get me wrong, faster is always nicer, but the overwhelming majority of users barely use their upstream now.
bittorrent


anony501

@comcast.net

said by fifty nine:

bittorrent

Bittorrent for personal use (e.g. sharing a home video with friends and family) or bittorrent for commercial use, allowing 3rd parties to use (for profit) the ISP bandwidth to share to people you have no relationship with.


jadebangle
Premium
join:2007-05-22
00000
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to cdru

100/20 would be considered generous
Charter offer 60/5

So 100/5 or 100/10 would be the ideal next higher tier if offered in the future

correction, the majority of us have fast download, slow upload. Just because many of us have slow upload doesn't mean that we don't use much of it. It just mean that we can't use much of it even if we want to. It would be a lot faster to download then to upload. It is frustrating for many of us that want to upload large file so many of us do not bother

Not all of us just leech most of us do what is convenient so leeching allow us to absorb huge amount of bandwidth.

Its by design...
Is it possible to give us 5/5, 10/10, 20/20 etc on cable internet? sure its possible but it would mean that you can freely upload as much as you download and that is what they are trying to prevent in the first place



fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2
reply to anony501

My comment was tongue in cheek.

On a serious note, a lot of people are telecommuting these days and they need the upload to upload large files quickly.

They probably should be using a business account but I doubt that a telecommuter would be able to afford an OC connection to their home.

Cable commercial accounts are out because they use DOCSIS.


iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·Verizon Online DSL
·Comcast
reply to cdru

And i suppose 640k oughta be enough for anyone? Seriously.

Want to do fast online backups? Want to grab files fro home at high speed when on the road? Want to have a remote desktop experience that's like sitting at the computer? You need better upload speeds.

If FiOS was here, I'd pay the extra money for a 20/20 symmetric connection, no doubt.

Before you say it, no I'm not getting a business line; they still only have 2 Mbps of upload here.



cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7
reply to fifty nine

said by fifty nine:

On a serious note, a lot of people are telecommuting these days and they need the upload to upload large files quickly.

They probably should be using a business account but I doubt that a telecommuter would be able to afford an OC connection to their home.
You don't need an "OC" connection to have a fast connection, but yeah, it's not necessarily going to fit under the definition of a residential connection.

Even with telecommuting, the necessity to be uploading large files frequency can be minimized with some planning. And if you are constantly needing to transfer large files, maybe telecommuting isn't the best fit for the job.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2

said by cdru:

Even with telecommuting, the necessity to be uploading large files frequency can be minimized with some planning. And if you are constantly needing to transfer large files, maybe telecommuting isn't the best fit for the job.
Try working in video or audio production.

There are people doing that from home and who need all the upload they can get.

In any case the problem is not a broadband class warfare between "residential" and "business" connections because business connections are often based on the same limited DOCSIS and ADSL standards.

jesseb_66

join:2002-12-06
Derry, NH
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to jadebangle

I bought an hd Camcorder a few months ago we upload all the time. We just had a baby girl and post videos for the fam back East in MP4.
It can take awhile I ussually start uploads before work and let em run from there.
The demand for higher upload is comming.just because you can't think of a need doesn't mean there isn't.
ISP's had better start getting ready.



fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2

said by jesseb_66:

I bought an hd Camcorder a few months ago we upload all the time. We just had a baby girl and post videos for the fam back East in MP4.
It can take awhile I ussually start uploads before work and let em run from there.
The demand for higher upload is comming.just because you can't think of a need doesn't mean there isn't.
ISP's had better start getting ready.
Home security, control and surveillance controlled via the internet is also on the rise.


dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18

1 recommendation

reply to cdru

said by cdru:

Please give an example where 2 or 3mbit upload isn't adequate for a residential connection.
Offsite Backups for one...

3 computers here in this room.
Sure would like to do monthly offsite backups - but at 10-18GB for each computer(that comes to something like 30-54GB), 2mbps would be painful.
I have 2.2mbps(nominal) upload now... but I don't want to trash my connection for hours.

2mbps = 900MB per hour
5 hours = 4500MB
12 hours = 10800MB
24 hours = 21600MB
48 hours = 43200MB

This is under ideal conditions with no other connection usage.

So, for me to backup my machines I would have to possibly upload for 50+ hours and not use the connection for anything else otherwise it will take longer?
Uhm, yeah.
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera


Chris 313
Come get some
Premium
join:2004-07-18
Houma, LA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·Vonage
·Comcast
·Comcast Digital ..

1 recommendation

said by dadkins:

said by cdru:

Please give an example where 2 or 3mbit upload isn't adequate for a residential connection.
Offsite Backups for one...

3 computers here in this room.
Sure would like to do monthly offsite backups - but at 10-18GB for each computer(that comes to something like 30-54GB), 2mbps would be painful.
I have 2.2mbps(nominal) upload now... but I don't want to trash my connection for hours.

2mbps = 900MB per hour
5 hours = 4500MB
12 hours = 10800MB
24 hours = 21600MB
48 hours = 43200MB

This is under ideal conditions with no other connection usage.

So, for me to backup my machines I would have to possibly upload for 50+ hours and not use the connection for anything else otherwise it will take longer?
Uhm, yeah.
Yes, I agree with that. What happens when you have a backup that's a little over 100GB. THAT would be truely painful, wouldn't it?


dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18

said by Chris 313:

Yes, I agree with that. What happens when you have a backup that's a little over 100GB. THAT would be truely painful, wouldn't it?
EXACTLY!
What if you had two computers...
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera


Phil
Rojo Sol
Premium
join:2001-06-11
Downers Grove, IL
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Comcast

1 recommendation

reply to cdru

said by cdru:

Please give an example where 2 or 3mbit upload isn't adequate for a residential connection.
Varies from one person to the next, but gaming servers, P2P, FTP server, streaming content from home, online backups, etc.. There are numerous reasons justifying faster uploads.


Chris 313
Come get some
Premium
join:2004-07-18
Houma, LA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·Vonage
·Comcast
·Comcast Digital ..

1 recommendation

reply to dadkins

said by dadkins:

said by Chris 313:

Yes, I agree with that. What happens when you have a backup that's a little over 100GB. THAT would be truely painful, wouldn't it?
EXACTLY!
What if you had two computers...
Over 200GB! No thanks! Makes me glad I have an external here to do more frequent backups vs what I'd do online with 200GB worth of stuff to back up.

I'd do twice a month on my external if I had that much, while online, I'd do it once maybe every 2-3 months.

Also, you have to be aware of Comcast's combo 250GB cap when doing something that large.

Yeesh!


pokesph
It Is Almost Fast
Premium
join:2001-06-25
Sacramento, CA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast

2 recommendations

said by Chris 313:

said by dadkins:

said by Chris 313:

Yes, I agree with that. What happens when you have a backup that's a little over 100GB. THAT would be truely painful, wouldn't it?
EXACTLY!
What if you had two computers...
Over 200GB! No thanks! Makes me glad I have an external here to do more frequent backups vs what I'd do online with 200GB worth of stuff to back up.

I'd do twice a month on my external if I had that much, while online, I'd do it once maybe every 2-3 months.

Also, you have to be aware of Comcast's combo 250GB cap when doing something that large.

Yeesh!
Heh..

We have file server with 1.8TB data, 3 computers all approaching 800GB on their drives, plus a few external's all needing to be backed up.
Off-site back ups with a typical residential cable/dsl connection is all but impossible, not enough upload as well as silly caps.

as others have said, upload is becoming increasingly needed just to do routine things.. we ourselves do a lot of video and audio here and hate waiting hours to upload a simple 15 min HD vid clip.


cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7
reply to Phil

said by Phil:

said by cdru:

Please give an example where 2 or 3mbit upload isn't adequate for a residential connection.
Varies from one person to the next, but gaming servers, P2P, FTP server, streaming content from home, online backups, etc.. There are numerous reasons justifying faster uploads.
Servers are almost always forbidden from a residential connection. Whether the provision of the TOS is enforced or not is another topic.

I've streamed video and audio from home numerous times when I had a 2mbit fios connection without issues. Sure it wasn't 1080p HD with 7.1 surround sound, but picture quality and sound was more then adequate.

Are your backups really time sensitive that they MUST get there within a certain timeframe? Do you really have multi-gigabytes of data that must be backed up, in full, very frequently where a differential or incremental backup would suffice?

As I originally said, faster is always going to be nicer. My point was that for an overwhelming majority of customers, 2 or 3mbit is significantly more then what they need. They are using online backup services to backup MAYBE a gig or two of files. They aren't using it to backup their entire divx movie collection they pirated. They maybe have a game server, but it's much more likely they are just a client on someone else's server. For the hardcore pirate, hardcore gamer, or the file backuper with OCD, there are "needs" for faster speeds. But saying that 2,3,5 mbits is pathetic is wrong as the market, as a whole, just doesn't need faster and/or more symmetrical connections.

majortom1029

join:2006-10-19
Lindenhurst, NY
kudos:1

Not on Opt online boost. Web servers and email servers are allowed on boost with their ports open.



Phil
Rojo Sol
Premium
join:2001-06-11
Downers Grove, IL
kudos:2
reply to cdru

Well I'm most definitely in the minority when it comes to upload usage and I don't even run P2P apps.


kd6cae
P2p Shouldn't Be A Crime

join:2001-08-27
Palmdale, CA
reply to jadebangle

My belief is that the internet is a computer network that is two way, and the option should be available for those that want it, of having better upstream, even if on residential. We're not even using the full potential of docsis 2.0, or even ADSL's upstream potential.
Why is every single residential ISP except Verizon afraid to give users better upload? with folks such as myself wanting to do off site file backups, or stream high quality audio/video, or perhaps have uses for upstream noone's thought of yet, why not give us at least the option of allowing the technology to do the most it can for those that want to make use of it?
If one lives close enough to a DSLAM to achieve 1Mbit upstream sync, why not allow a user to get that if they want it? I agree, not all users will currently want more upload, but we shouldn't be prevented from getting it just because we don't run a business!
If cablevision can offer a 5Mbit upstream tier over the exact same cable technology I'm currently using with TWC, why isn't TWC offering me the option of a 5Mbit upstream tier? It makes 0 sense if you ask me.



tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:4
reply to fifty nine

Then those people (relitively few of the general population) may need a faster "business grade" ($$$) connection.
for the purpose of residental broadband DOCSIS (and in some cases ADSL2) are just fine and will be for years to come.



Fanfoot

@cisco.com
reply to pokesph

And if your house burns down? Or a burglar breaks in and makes off with your computer equipment?

Dude, you need offsite backup. Maybe it didn't matter when all people had on their computers were their old tax returns, but now that you're storing all your music, all your pictures, all your home movies, etc.

And the network needs to evolve as people figure this out.



Fanfoot

@cisco.com
reply to cdru

My iPod is 160GB. It is nearly full. It has music, photos and videos on it that I would not want to lose under any circumstances.

Every so often I switch computers. The way Carbonite works right now is I abandon the old backups and do new ones. Or at least this is what happened last year when I did this.

So... 160GB of data to be backed up at 2Mbps would take what, 640,000 seconds, or 177 days or about SIX MONTHS to back up. And during this time my data won't be protected. And that's assuming my connection is perfect and I don't use it for anything else.

So if I upgrade my computer every 2 years, my data will only be protected 75% of the time at BEST.

And its just "C-R-A-Z-Y" for anybody to want more than 2Mbps?

You know how stupid you're going to sound in a few years right crdu? How about you post your real name so we can all make fun of you when the future shows up?



RARPSL

join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY
reply to cdru

said by cdru:

said by jadebangle:

Its always 10/1, 20/2, 30/3 massive on the download side, pathetic on the upload side
Please give an example where 2 or 3mbit upload isn't adequate for a residential connection.
TCP/IP is a handshake protocol. This means that the receiver must tell the sender that the data has arrived successfully arrived and to send more data. Until the sender has been informed of the arrival (at the receiver) of what it has sent, it can/will not send more data. Thus depending on how fast the downlink is at the receiving side, the uplink side (and the actual receiver->sender speed of the connection between the receiver and the sender) must be fast enough to keep the downlink end saturated (ignoring the issue of the need to resend due to receive errors or dropped packets) or the downlink is going to be throttled due to the sender not being told to send more data soon enough. As you increase the download speed, you must increase the upload speed to keep pace or you will be unable to use all of the download speed capability.


cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7
reply to Fanfoot

said by Fanfoot :

My iPod is 160GB. It is nearly full. It has music, photos and videos on it that I would not want to lose under any circumstances.
Ok. Fair enough. I bet your iPod doesn't get 160GB of new content constantly though. I bet a good portion stays the same for some lengthly period of time so it really don't have to be backed up from scratch.

Every so often I switch computers. The way Carbonite works right now is I abandon the old backups and do new ones. Or at least this is what happened last year when I did this.
I don't believe Carbonite allows you to restore a full system from their service. You have to have at least a functional system first before restoring files, don't you? So you really only need to backup what is essentially your "data" files. You shouldn't have to restart your file set. Besides, when you discard an old backup, isn't that leaving you vulnerable until a new backup is complete?

So... 160GB of data to be backed up at 2Mbps would take what, 640,000 seconds, or 177 days or about SIX MONTHS to back up.
Actually, that would be about 177 hours or a little over 7 days. Math's hard I know.

And during this time my data won't be protected.
Even if you had a 10mbit connection, your data wouldn't be protected for 1.5 days. The safest thing would have been to leave your existing file set backed up until you completed your new one and verified it was valid, then delete the old one. That way you would never have to be without a backup in case something should happen to it. But under that method you really wouldn't be limited to any time limit as you'd always be protected, so I can see why you went with that way to support your argument. A wise person with limited bandwidth would have probably just backed up the changed files to begin with, which is how carbonite works by default, isn't it?

So if I upgrade my computer every 2 years, my data will only be protected 75% of the time at BEST.

And its just "C-R-A-Z-Y" for anybody to want more than 2Mbps?
No, but it's c-r-a-z-y to base an entire argument on a miscalculation. Plus I never said there was NO need for it, just that 2 or 3 mbits is ADEQUATE for an overwhelming majority of customers.

You know how stupid you're going to sound in a few years right crdu?
Pot. Kettle. Black. Before calling people stupid, check your own posts. But also consider that I may actually have some intelligence. I didn't seem to have too much problem making it through college with a comp sci degree. Sure the future may be drastically different, but I don't think so. I predict that there will be the same proportional gap between the upload and download speeds as what there is now. But my crystal ball has been a little fuzzy lately. I haven't upgraded to the new hidef ball yet.

How about you post your real name so we can all make fun of you when the future shows up?
Sure. Chris Drudge. Never have kept it a secret. But calling someone out when you yourself are an anonymous coward. I've been around here a few years and plan on being around for a few more. Feel free to come back any time and we can chat about who was right and who was wrong.


PaulHikeS2

join:2003-03-06
Manchester, NH

1 edit
reply to Fanfoot

said by Fanfoot :

So... 160GB of data to be backed up at 2Mbps would take what, 640,000 seconds, or 177 days or about SIX MONTHS to back up. And during this time my data won't be protected. And that's assuming my connection is perfect and I don't use it for anything else.

So if I upgrade my computer every 2 years, my data will only be protected 75% of the time at BEST.
Actually about 7 days, not 177.

(edit) CDRU beat me to it....faster at math I guess!
--
Jay: What the @#$% is the internet???


pspcrazy
Anime Freak

join:2008-02-06
San Diego, CA
reply to tshirt

What a smart idea! Unfortunately you have conviently seemed to have forgot that they dont offer a faster "business grade" connection, business connections simply just have a better SLA, the speeds are the same for 2x the cost, stupid imo.

--
My Anime Site - AnimeCrazy.net


Cogdis

join:2007-03-26
Floral Park, NY
reply to cdru

said by cdru:

I've streamed video and audio from home numerous times when I had a 2mbit fios connection without issues. Sure it wasn't 1080p HD with 7.1 surround sound, but picture quality and sound was more then adequate.

As I originally said, faster is always going to be nicer. My point was that for an overwhelming majority of customers, 2 or 3mbit is significantly more then what they need.
That video quality might be good for a computer screen, but some people stream to TVs and without the bandwidth the video quality looks worse as the display gets bigger. HD streaming is the future and eventually it's all anybody will use.

I realize that we can access anything even with slow upload speeds if we have the patience, but more bandwidth intensive apps are time sensitive now. A dial up modem isn't gonna cut it anymore.


Nerdtalker
Working Hard, Or Hardly Working?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-02-18
Tucson, AZ
reply to cdru

said by cdru:

Please give an example where 2 or 3mbit upload isn't adequate for a residential connection.
Oh please, don't be so absurd. First of all, it's precisely this kind of thinking which drives me crazy. Second of all, the burden to build-out networks isn't in the hands of the consumers to prove that they need more before ISPs deliver it. I guarantee in a few years, you're going to look back and think, jeez, I sound a lot like Bill Gates in that oft-too-repeated quote of his about a certain amount of RAM being more than enough for just about anyone.

The whole point is that demand always grows to fill the free bandwidth. By always, I mean always. It's simple really, what the whole argument centers around is a classical chicken-or-the-egg type question. Will web technologies that need more bandwidth pop up and wait around until speeds are adequate, or will developers make software which works under the current state of penetration and then become prevalent enough that more bandwidth becomes necessary as it gains popularity.

The answer should be so obvious.
--
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