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This is a sub-selection from Not much improvement over docsis 2.0


Nerdtalker
Working Hard, Or Hardly Working?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-02-18
Tucson, AZ
reply to cdru

Re: Not much improvement over docsis 2.0

said by cdru:

Please give an example where 2 or 3mbit upload isn't adequate for a residential connection.
Oh please, don't be so absurd. First of all, it's precisely this kind of thinking which drives me crazy. Second of all, the burden to build-out networks isn't in the hands of the consumers to prove that they need more before ISPs deliver it. I guarantee in a few years, you're going to look back and think, jeez, I sound a lot like Bill Gates in that oft-too-repeated quote of his about a certain amount of RAM being more than enough for just about anyone.

The whole point is that demand always grows to fill the free bandwidth. By always, I mean always. It's simple really, what the whole argument centers around is a classical chicken-or-the-egg type question. Will web technologies that need more bandwidth pop up and wait around until speeds are adequate, or will developers make software which works under the current state of penetration and then become prevalent enough that more bandwidth becomes necessary as it gains popularity.

The answer should be so obvious.
--
"Some people never see the light till it shines thru bullet holes." -Bruce Cockburn

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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7
said by Nerdtalker:

The whole point is that demand always grows to fill the free bandwidth. By always, I mean always.
Show me a graph of your past 24 hours of bandwidth usage with your upload pegged at your service's limit and you can prove your point. Show it at anything less then near 100% utilization and you help support mine.

I agree that if the bandwidth is available, then uses will come up for it. But I disagree that demand always grows to fill available space. If that was the case then everyone would be demanding their ISPs increase their upload speeds. But the majority of us still sit here with very asymmetrical connections. Why? Because people tolerate it because it meets their needs for what they want to pay.

If they wanted faster, symmetrical speeds then they would go with a plan that offered them, if available (e.g. FiOS's 20/20 plan), or be demanding them if they weren't available. But most residential customers don't want to pay the premium to they go on their merry way.

And by the way, billg never said the remark regarding 640k being enough.


Nerdtalker
Working Hard, Or Hardly Working?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-02-18
Tucson, AZ
said by cdru:

Show me a graph of your past 24 hours of bandwidth usage with your upload pegged at your service's limit and you can prove your point. Show it at anything less then near 100% utilization and you help support mine.
The relevance of the point doesn't hinge solely on 24/7 use of the upstream bandwidth, rather, whether functionality which occurs sporadically is contingent on there being even more upstream bandwidth than there is.

The assumption you're making here is that the average amount of stuff someone uploads can be easily spread out over the course of a day inside that 1-2 megabit window, comfortably. That doesn't always apply.

For example, I use a number of wireless networked security cameras for offsite monitoring, both at my house, other peoples houses (ones that I've recommended and setup for family, friends, e.t.c.). These things do MPEG4 640x480 streams, and a normal to high quality compression ratio uses at least 1.2-2 megabits. If you switch to MJPEG (for compatibility), that falls off even more. If you have more than one person viewing at a time, you're just guaranteeing a headache. Given the fact that I have 3, and another property has 4, you'll see that it often isn't possible to comfortably (at about 10 FPS) view more than two at a time. In situations like this (I guess another example would be placeshifting with a slingbox) the user doesn't have the convenience of simply letting the accrued bandwidth nicely integrate over the span of several hours. They need it, and they need it fast.

When I get home, if you really care, I'll show you my last 24 hours of usage pattern so you can see how viewing the camera immediately saturates both the "powerboosted" 3 megabits of upstream, and then the sagged 2 megabits that comes after.

said by cdru:

I agree that if the bandwidth is available, then uses will come up for it. But I disagree that demand always grows to fill available space. If that was the case then everyone would be demanding their ISPs increase their upload speeds. But the majority of us still sit here with very asymmetrical connections. Why? Because people tolerate it because it meets their needs for what they want to pay.

If they wanted faster, symmetrical speeds then they would go with a plan that offered them, if available (e.g. FiOS's 20/20 plan), or be demanding them if they weren't available. But most residential customers don't want to pay the premium to they go on their merry way.
I think we're going to just have to disagree here. The example you give of FIOS is an entirely different and (from a penetration point of view) exotic newcomer. Trust me, as an optical engineer, I recognize the fact that FIOS and FTTH are so clearly the way to the future, but the current asymmetric offerings of the cable networks (which, ironically as you know is Hybrid Fiber Coax, I love fiber...) are endemic because of the narrow return bandwidth in the DOCSIS 1.x and even 2.0 (and even, arguably, the 3.0 spec as the article suggests).

It seems like, if the bandwidth is there, people will find a use for it eventually. That's what I mean when I say that it always grows (albeit sometimes slowly) to fill that space.

Interesting... I learn something new every day. I had no idea that actually wasn't him. I guess he just gets a bad rap for it.
--
"Some people never see the light till it shines thru bullet holes." -Bruce Cockburn

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