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TheJoker
MVM
join:2001-04-26
Charlottesville, VA

TheJoker to Kerodo

MVM

to Kerodo

Re: Norton adds "Safe Search" (aka Ask Search) to IE & Firefox

said by Kerodo:

I really don't see what the big deal is here... I guess paranoia runs rampant.
You can read about Ask's questionable practices here:
»www.benedelman.org/spywa ··· s-banner

Dooby
Premium Member
join:2001-05-08
The Boonies

2 recommendations

Dooby to NIS2009User

Premium Member

to NIS2009User
Seems to me that people knock Symantec because it's the equivalent of Microsoft to the security industry. Personally, from my experience with NIS 2009 is that it's the BEST bit of software from Symantec in years and I have it on all my computers now. So comdemning the whole thing because of Safe Web is idiotic. Besides, Safe Web is actually quite good really.

I tried Avast and that constantly crashed my computer, and I tried Kaspersky and that was awful too (I can't remember but I think it had update problems and nagged me about reaching the server). So I decided to pay for a service and went with Norton Internet Security and I've never been happier with PC protection ever.

It's always been something with AntiVirus programs. They can be heavy on the resources, require too much manual attention to operate it properly (networks and generalities) and generally nag you to death in some way. I just don't want to micro-manage my security, thank you very much. So far with NIS 2009 (from January) I have had NONE of that, or anything that has made me unhappy. It detected and setup my network and runs in the background with minimal resources and scans regularly when the computer is idle and doesn't nag me constantly with trivial crap that I really don't care about.

Now about Safe Web, this is mentioned in the NIS package when you buy it, so what's all the f'ing surprise of it being a default installation? It does what it says it does and I like it. If you don't like it, then it's only 2 damned clicks to disable it. Click the Norton tab and deselect the facility, done.

This is just my opinion of course, but I totally recommend NIS 2009. It rocks hard.
gaslad
join:2001-12-02
Toronto, ON

gaslad

Member

The day my AV tries to install any dubious software (much less an unwanted search bar) without my express permission is the day I dump that AV.

I don't care if they call it a "search box", or claim that by integrating it into my AV it is not 3rd party software. I don't care if I can "hide" it. If I don't want it, and can't uninstall it, that AV is toast.

I've been through this with both the Comodo Firewall and the Foxit Reader. At least both these apps offered the option to not install the Ask toolbar during the installation process.

Dooby
Premium Member
join:2001-05-08
The Boonies

Dooby

Premium Member

There is an option not to install it, when you install NIS.

If you installed it accidentally, you can delete it with the Norton tool.

There is no conspiracy against you.
Kerodo
join:2004-05-08

Kerodo

Member

said by Dooby:

There is an option not to install it, when you install NIS.

If you installed it accidentally, you can delete it with the Norton tool.

There is no conspiracy against you.
There was no such option with Norton 360 v3. It just installed it without asking. I don't mind it, and I think most people are over-reacting in a paranoid manner to history, and not much else. I see nothing wrong with it, whether I choose to use it or not. 360 v3 overall is quite a superior product now. All this nonsense about the evil toolbar is just typical Symantec bashing IMO. All I can say is, if you don't like it, then don't use Norton. I think most people could care less about it, and rightly so.

Dooby
Premium Member
join:2001-05-08
The Boonies

Dooby

Premium Member

said by Kerodo:

There was no such option with Norton 360 v3.
Hmm. Did you do the standard installation or the advanced? Only in advanced does it give you the options to choose, as is the norm.

Woody79_00
I run Linux am I still a PC?
Premium Member
join:2004-07-08
united state

Woody79_00 to Kerodo

Premium Member

to Kerodo
This is not Norton bashing

Do you have any idea of Ask's past history?

lets see here, they were targeting "children" in web ads pushing the ask toolbar

not to mention in these same ads they were pushing "mywebsearch" which was bundled with it which is a nasty piece of spyware and a browswer hijacker

your gonna trust Ask? Ask spys on its users more than Google does and that is saying alot!

a toolbar has no business in a security program, NONE

it doesn't take a genuins to figure out Symantec will get a cut of PPC ads on its Ask search from Ask on clicks that come on ads from the Ask search used by Norton users

this wasn't done out of the goodness of Symantecs heart...

why did they have to incoporate a seach toolbar? atleast McAfee Site Advisor doesn't foist a toolbar on you(least last time i checked about 8 months ago)...it rates the search engine of your choice

why include a toolbar if Norton Safe Web rates msn, yahoo, and google search?....money thats why...this is dishonest....if i was a Norton user and i woke up oneday and seen they foisted a toolbar on me, i would demand a refund and dump them quickly
Kerodo
join:2004-05-08

Kerodo

Member

said by Woody79_00:

...if i was a Norton user and i woke up oneday and seen they foisted a toolbar on me, i would demand a refund and dump them quickly
So I guess we can assume that you aren't using a Norton product, and you won't anytime soon... what a surprise..
Kerodo

Kerodo to Dooby

Member

to Dooby
said by Dooby:

said by Kerodo:

There was no such option with Norton 360 v3.
Hmm. Did you do the standard installation or the advanced? Only in advanced does it give you the options to choose, as is the norm.
I must've done a standard install then. Thanks for clarifying that.

Nimbus
Premium Member
join:2008-11-27
Moreno Valley, CA

1 edit

Nimbus to Woody79_00

Premium Member

to Woody79_00
said by Woody79_00:

why did they have to incoporate a seach toolbar? atleast McAfee Site Advisor doesn't foist a toolbar on you(least last time i checked about 8 months ago)...it rates the search engine of your choice
Not only does McAfee also foist, it beat Symantec to market with this entire "secure search" concept several months ago with a partnership with Yahoo!. And, the option to make Yahoo! your default search engine is pre-selected for you at installation. At least Norton didn't try that little game with Ask.

By the way, when I upgraded SiteAdvisor last year, the search box was installed and Yahoo! became my default search tool. I was never offered the option to decline. Note that the FAQ states that if you have already accepted the EULA (you have an earlier version installed), the update automatically installs these "features". McAfee was soon sent packing.

"Why do I have a McAfee M icon, and/or a Yahoo! search icon, in my web browser toolbar?":

»service.mcafee.com/faqdo ··· 3Dsearch
SafireDonkey
Premium Member
join:2006-10-29
89000

SafireDonkey to NIS2009User

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to NIS2009User
Norton Removal Tool is their only "program" is used in the past years, and I'm glad I did.

Candoo3
join:2005-01-24

Candoo3 to Kerodo

Member

to Kerodo
said by Kerodo:

said by Mele20:

said by Kerodo:

It is, you can turn it off any time....
The user should not have to turn it off. It should NOT be there by default. If the user wants it then they should have to install it. There is a HUGE difference between the two.
Again, you're assuming there's something wrong with it. I don't see the problem.
The problem and/or concern that you're missing, is that it installs without asking the user IF they WANT it installed. This is something that a user expects of Freeware or Shareware, not a purchased product from a supposedly respected company. Even Freeware/Shareware generally gives you the option to opt out.

With my install, I used the web upgrade from 2008 to 2009 back in the fall. I had recently purchased 2009 retail for the key as my subsciption was running out. I didn't have to re-install, just change the key. Obviously this new crap was installed during a web update (NOT upgrade). Nothing informed me the "extras" were being installed. I'm a seasoned user, and I spent some time trying to figure out where the "extra" came from, before I discovered the topic here. For the not-so-seasoned user, whom it is probably being targeted at, guaranteed they don't, and won't ever have a clue. IMHO, that becomes a trust issue. I should NOT have to spend my time trying to figure out where an add-on came from, and how to turn it off. Simple, and as Mele20 said, that is the huge diff.

Name Game
Premium Member
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI

Name Game to NIS2009User

Premium Member

to NIS2009User
Out of the box WinXp Home when it first came out had no firewall active even though there was one made of it..the poor user had to put the WinXP Home CD in the drive and go through hoops to install it. Not many did or could since they did not even get an Install CD with the hardware package they bought. Bad move on Microsoft's part. Even disastrous for some users.

It took Microsoft all the way until they released WinXP SP2
for them to turn the firewall on by default. They did not tell anyone..most user never even knew it had occurred. During the SP2 installation you could not opt-in or opt-out.

Installing all these AV suite now days..turns off that firewall not telling people..and when you uninstall their Suites..which is a pain since many still do not completely uninstall..some do not even turn the XP firewall back on for the user.

I am still peeved at Microsoft for the out-of-the-box error of omission.

The symantec/ask thingie is a midstream addition "feature" for some of their clients in the cycle of the users paided up edition..the proof in the pudding will be for all those new users and this feature. I am not hard over on the marriage..or the way they rolled it out. At least they are keeping up with the competition..as people "lease" their software and pay for the updates.
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

1 recommendation

Mele20

Premium Member

said by Name Game:

Installing all these AV suite now days..turns off that firewall not telling people..and when you uninstall their Suites..which is a pain since many still do not completely uninstall..some do not even turn the XP firewall back on for the user.
I'm happy to report that testing Avira 9 Suite beta, I have noticed that each time I have installed the Suite with the firewall included that it has been CLEARLY explained during the install that I have Windows firewall turned on and that having two firewalls on at the same time can cause conflicts resulting in loss of protection. The installer asks me if I would I like it to turn off the Windows firewall. Then when I go to UNinstall Avira 9 beta, the uninstaller asks me if I would like it to turn the Windows firewall on and explains that I need to do this because I am removing Avira's firewall. Both installer and uninstaller also explain that this will require a reboot. I think Avira is ahead of most other AV in the responsible and clear manner in which they handle this issue.
Kerodo
join:2004-05-08

Kerodo to Candoo3

Member

to Candoo3
said by Candoo3:

The problem and/or concern that you're missing, is that it installs without asking the user IF they WANT it installed. This is something that a user expects of Freeware or Shareware, not a purchased product from a supposedly respected company. Even Freeware/Shareware generally gives you the option to opt out.

With my install, I used the web upgrade from 2008 to 2009 back in the fall. I had recently purchased 2009 retail for the key as my subsciption was running out. I didn't have to re-install, just change the key. Obviously this new crap was installed during a web update (NOT upgrade). Nothing informed me the "extras" were being installed. I'm a seasoned user, and I spent some time trying to figure out where the "extra" came from, before I discovered the topic here. For the not-so-seasoned user, whom it is probably being targeted at, guaranteed they don't, and won't ever have a clue. IMHO, that becomes a trust issue. I should NOT have to spend my time trying to figure out where an add-on came from, and how to turn it off. Simple, and as Mele20 said, that is the huge diff.
Yes, I understand all that, and your concerns, but I just don't see it that way or share them. Where do you draw the line? The Ask stuff is installed as another "feature", along with the rest of the program features. I look at it as such, just another feature of the program. The only reason you don't like it is because you think it's a BAD feature. It has an evil history. I seriously doubt Symantec would jeaopardize their products by installing something evil. Why not object to many of the other "features" of NIS/NAV or 360? How about SONAR? Shouldn't be be asked if we want that installed? Or maybe we should also be asked if we desire the Explorer right click scan feature? When does it end?

You're installing the Norton product, and you get what that entails. Simple enough as far as I'm concerned. If one objects to any part of it, then just stop using it and move on.

All this objection and complaining is just far into the realm of anal behavior as far as I can see... Time to get a life folks...
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

1 edit

Mele20

Premium Member

It is precisely because of the junk like this toolbar in Norton that many folks avoid Norton. As for the shell extension to be made optional or SONAR, sure, why not? With Avira, only the core module is not optional. All other modules (including Guard) can be separately installed or declined. Plus, the user can EASILY, at ANY time, change their mind and install a module they declined during the initial install of Antivir or, they can uninstall a module that they decide they don't want, and none of this means uninstalling Antivir and reinstalling. It is simple and quick to make Antivir how YOU the USER want it to be. Why should it be acceptable for Symantec to ram stuff down users throats...especially unwanted toolbars? Symantec could make Norton like Avira and their users would be a lot happier if that happened. (Plus, they would likely experience an upsurge in users if they gave users more control).
Arup7
join:2007-12-09

Arup7 to NIS2009User

Member

to NIS2009User
I don't see any issue there except that Norton is a security oriented software. Quite a few legit and good programs today add the optional Ask bar and that includes Opera which is among the safest of browsers.
mvdu
Premium Member
join:2003-07-28
Collegeville, PA

mvdu to Mele20

Premium Member

to Mele20
I agree, Mele - any toolbar should have an opt-out during install.
Kerodo
join:2004-05-08

Kerodo

Member

What about the Google toolbar that gets rammed down your throat when you install Firefox? Is that evil too?
Hangetsu
join:2007-12-22
West Chester, PA

1 recommendation

Hangetsu

Member

Its a very simple choice -- If the addition of a search box (not a toolbar) bothers you, don't use Norton. They felt (right or wrong) that it would be a benefit to their users.

I personally won't be using the Ask.com search, so as long as information isn't sent to Ask.com anyway (confirmed its not), then its a non-issue IMHO. You may feel differently, and that's what other choices are for.
mvdu
Premium Member
join:2003-07-28
Collegeville, PA

mvdu

Premium Member

Firefox isn't a security product. I don't use Norton anyway, and all this stuff makes me avoid it more. It's a choice left up to each person.
Kerodo
join:2004-05-08

Kerodo to NIS2009User

Member

to NIS2009User
Yep, to each his own as they say.... that's why we have so many choices. There's something to please everyone.
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20 to Kerodo

Premium Member

to Kerodo
said by Kerodo:

What about the Google toolbar that gets rammed down your throat when you install Firefox? Is that evil too?
What Google toolbar? The last time I installed Fx was on Vista last May and I didn't get any Google toolbar. I would have been furious if I had. I don't even think it took me to Google which it used to do until you changed your home page. I even block mozilla.com, firefox.com, getfirefox.com, ostats.mozilla.com, etc. in HostsMan because last year the Mozilla Foundation decided to spy on their users on these sites. Luckily, they have not extended that to the official addons site...yet.
Longboard
join:2005-04-13
australia

2 recommendations

Longboard to NIS2009User

Member

to NIS2009User
So; from Symantec:
»www.wilderssecurity.com/ ··· tcount=1
Well well.

Grail Knight

Premium Member
join:2003-05-31
Valhalla

Grail Knight to Kerodo

Premium Member

to Kerodo
What Google Toolbar?

I have never had Google Toolbar installed along with Fx.

Perhaps Fx was obtained from a site other then mozilla.com?

Are you referring to Google Search engine of which there are also a few others included with Fx that a user can delete or add engines as they see fit?
Hangetsu
join:2007-12-22
West Chester, PA

Hangetsu

Member

The default search engine in Firefox's search box is Google. Its not a toolbar per se, just a search box you can type a search into without having to go to a specific search page.

Its no different than the Ask.com search with Norton. Its not a toolbar, just a search box. And both can be turned off.

Grail Knight

Premium Member
join:2003-05-31
Valhalla

Grail Knight

Premium Member

I know that but thanks.

I have a feeling the poster just confused toolbar and the search box on the navigation toolbar is all.

Name Game
Premium Member
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI

1 recommendation

Name Game to NIS2009User

Premium Member

to NIS2009User
If I can see just one less person running to all the great highjackthis and malware help forums because of the Symantec/Safe Search marriage..I say good on ya Symantec..cause I still see too many people asking for help in those forums who use your products updated and paided for and the USER still gets whacked.( and I keep book on many of them Forums). So as many of you cry out there "but symantec did not ask me first"..I focus on a safer internet for everyone.
Kerodo
join:2004-05-08

Kerodo to Hangetsu

Member

to Hangetsu
said by Hangetsu:

The default search engine in Firefox's search box is Google. Its not a toolbar per se, just a search box you can type a search into without having to go to a specific search page.

Its no different than the Ask.com search with Norton. Its not a toolbar, just a search box. And both can be turned off.
Exactly my point, thanks for saying it in a bit more understandable fashion...

MeDuZa
join:2003-06-13
Austria

MeDuZa to Arup7

Member

to Arup7
said by Arup7:

I don't see any issue there except that Norton is a security oriented software. Quite a few legit and good programs today add the optional Ask bar and that includes Opera which is among the safest of browsers.
Opera does add the optional Ask bar?
You may enlighten me please. I'm in trouble finding that Ask-bar with the latest Opera 10.00 alpha installed. Can't find it on earlier versions neither.
Opera added Ask.com to their longer search engine list (for revenue issues) you can choose from or delete or supplement with any search engine of your choice. That's all. No Ask bar I can detect.
If you know more let us know