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« The Luddites are coming, the Luddites are coming!  
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Bit
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reply to Eat Me
Re: Here's the problem

You certainly have widespread abuse of vehicles, from drunk driving as previously mentioned to speeding, to running red lights. By your logic they should be banned because of widespread abuse and this abuse results in 10,000's of deaths every year.


Eat Me

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said by Bit See Profile :

You certainly have widespread abuse of vehicles, from drunk driving as previously mentioned to speeding, to running red lights. By your logic they should be banned because of widespread abuse and this abuse results in 10,000's of deaths every year.
In other "free" bands such as 2.4GHz and 900MHz it is literally filthy as a sewer with spectrum pollution. The difference between those spaces and white space devices is that white space devices broadcast on actual TV channels, versus 900MHz and 2.4GHz where there isn't much of anything important.

But I do have to ask, how do you propose the FCC is going to handle enforcement if this gets out of hand?

At least with illegally modified vehicles the cops can pull them over. With illegally modded white space devices, it will be not as easy, plus the FCC has shown that it is not interested in any serious effort at enforcement. It will be like the wild west with everyone stepping all over each other and no one giving a shit.


Bit
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2 edits
Please...this isn't about interference. This is about an industry lobby not wanting new competitors. The reason they're bitching about this is the same reason they spent millions lobbying against the satellite radio merger.

They don't give two squirts of piss about "fringe" folks. They only concerned with stopping new competition for their membership.

Meanwhile I live and work in densely populated areas and don't suffer in the slightest from so-called sewer-like "spectrum" pollution with my 900MHz, 2.4GHz or 5GHz devices.


BF69

join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN

reply to Eat Me
said by Eat Me See Profile :

In other "free" bands such as 2.4GHz and 900MHz it is literally filthy as a sewer with spectrum pollution. The difference between those spaces and white space devices is that white space devices broadcast on actual TV channels, versus 900MHz and 2.4GHz where there isn't much of anything important.
which channels? specifically which MHz range is this supposedly going to affect? Do you even know?


Eat Me

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said by BF69 See Profile :

said by Eat Me See Profile :

In other "free" bands such as 2.4GHz and 900MHz it is literally filthy as a sewer with spectrum pollution. The difference between those spaces and white space devices is that white space devices broadcast on actual TV channels, versus 900MHz and 2.4GHz where there isn't much of anything important.
which channels? specifically which MHz range is this supposedly going to affect? Do you even know?
Sure I do. And I know exactly how to render these devices ineffective.

Furthermore, a signal of -114dbm while usable for me with a high gain antenna (which would bring it up above -114dbm) would basically give the green light to a white space device to fire up and pollute away.

I'm sure just like cell phone jammers someone will just make a WSD jammer (it's not that hard) to emit a signal just long enough to render WSD devices in the area ineffective.

This is yet another reason to say NO to WSD's, because they can be shut off very easily.

Finally, testing of these devices was conducted in a very slipshod manner with the FCC again just relying on a half assed test to make a decision. Not surprising when the agency is packed with lawyers and lobbyists who have no clue about RF in the real world.


Eat Me

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reply to Bit
said by Bit See Profile :

Please...this isn't about interference. This is about an industry lobby not wanting new competitors. The reason they're bitching about this is the same reason they spent millions lobbying against the satellite radio merger.

They don't give two squirts of piss about "fringe" folks. They only concerned with stopping new competition for their membership.

Meanwhile I live and work in densely populated areas and don't suffer in the slightest from so-called sewer-like "spectrum" pollution with my 900MHz, 2.4GHz or 5GHz devices.
As a current sat radio customer (XM), I'd say that the merger has made things a lot worse. They screwed up half the music channels and are now raising the price for second receivers. Since they're now a monopoly, if I want sat radio I can't speak with my feet.

Broadcasters absolutely give a damn about fringe areas. That's the reason many are requesting power increases post analog shutoff. There's a little thing called ratings in this business that matter.


Bit
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I've very happy with the merger cause now I don't have to have 2 radios to get Stern and MLB. Meanwhile the NAtB wasn't protesting the merger because they wanted to protect you from evil...it's because a combined service is a stronger competitor against terrestrial radio.


BF69

join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN

reply to Eat Me
said by Eat Me See Profile :

said by Bit See Profile :

Please...this isn't about interference. This is about an industry lobby not wanting new competitors. The reason they're bitching about this is the same reason they spent millions lobbying against the satellite radio merger.

They don't give two squirts of piss about "fringe" folks. They only concerned with stopping new competition for their membership.

Meanwhile I live and work in densely populated areas and don't suffer in the slightest from so-called sewer-like "spectrum" pollution with my 900MHz, 2.4GHz or 5GHz devices.
As a current sat radio customer (XM), I'd say that the merger has made things a lot worse. =
if it wasn't for the merger neither would exist right now.


BF69

join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN

reply to Eat Me
said by Eat Me See Profile :

Sure I do. And I know exactly how to render these devices ineffective.
I would like to know which TV channels would be getting interference. Since you seem to know.

I'm sure just like cell phone jammers someone will just make a WSD jammer (it's not that hard) to emit a signal just long enough to render WSD devices in the area ineffective.
So then using your logic cell phones should be banned. So people won't use cell phone jammers.


Eat Me

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
reply to Bit
What a surprise. Another Stern fan who doesn't mind trashing sat radio for Howard.

qworster

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4 edits
reply to Eat Me
Re: Here's the problem

said by Eat Me See Profile :

said by Bit See Profile :

You certainly have widespread abuse of vehicles, from drunk driving as previously mentioned to speeding, to running red lights. By your logic they should be banned because of widespread abuse and this abuse results in 10,000's of deaths every year.
In other "free" bands such as 2.4GHz and 900MHz it is literally filthy as a sewer with spectrum pollution. The difference between those spaces and white space devices is that white space devices broadcast on actual TV channels, versus 900MHz and 2.4GHz where there isn't much of anything important.

But I do have to ask, how do you propose the FCC is going to handle enforcement if this gets out of hand?

At least with illegally modified vehicles the cops can pull them over. With illegally modded white space devices, it will be not as easy, plus the FCC has shown that it is not interested in any serious effort at enforcement. It will be like the wild west with everyone stepping all over each other and no one giving a shit.
BOY are you wrong-and in bed with the big guys! MILLIONS OF USERS use both bands you have commented about every day-SUCCESSFULLY!! If you take at the number of users in those bands (wireless routers and access points, cordless telephones, audio/video devices and countless other devices) and divide by the size of the two bands in mHz, you'd see that there are literally MILLIONS of users per mHz! How can you in good conscience compare this to low band VHF where under 50 DTV stations will result in 30 mHz of prime VHF spectrum to mostly lay fallow-spectrum that could benefit THOUSANDS of AM radio stations, among others?

White space is a GOOD idea-and the NAB should spend less time fighting it and more time wasting their time and money promoting IBOC-which interferes with fellow broadcasters FAR WORSE then white space ever would!


Bit
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000

2 edits
reply to Eat Me
XM's music channels sucked ass pre merger. Don't like it, cancel.


Eat Me

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
They had a ton more subs than Sirius did before Stern came on board, so they were doing something right.


Eat Me

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reply to BF69
With a share price of 13 cents today I don't think they'll be around much longer.

Sirius was the failing one. If it wasn't for stern they'd be in the digital dustbin and maybe XM would pick up the subs. XM had more subs and a higher share price before Stern came on board Sirius and brought on the knuckle draggers and basically ruined the industry.


P Ness
You'Ve Forgotten 9-11 Already
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join:2001-08-29
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reply to Eat Me
said by Eat Me See Profile :

What a surprise. Another Stern fan who doesn't mind trashing sat radio for Howard.
because that has anything to do with the issue, i am sure he is just a mindless howard stern slave.

the reason for the problems now has more to do with the contracts of both companies and not the merger...the cost would have caused both companies to be in the same situation now instead of the combined company.

Also their debt cost increased 150% because of the destruction of our banking system. not because of the merger.

But you are just a mindless slave to whom, that you keep spouting off this retoric without even investigating the real facts?

"Since they're now a monopoly"

sigh,

Sorry but they ruled its not a monopoly so give it up. if you do not like the music go to the other 700 placed you can get music from. i cancled 2 extra recievers and listen now to www.theradio.com...same music...same service.

GG


Eat Me

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Sirius was dying, and rightfully so. They were basically terrestrial radio delivered via satellite - too many DJs talking during the music, and a shallow playlist. Their stock was about $5 and their subscriber numbers were a fraction of what XM's was.

Then along came Howard Stern, and his minions of knuckle draggers. Sirius attracted a lot of subs because of him, and the rightfully deserved death penalty for a crappy business model was delayed. Problem is that Howard cost Sirius a lot of cash that they didn't have. Then along came the merger and Sirius figured they'd be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. Problem is that XM subs liked how XM was, and Sirius changed it all up, dropping channels, adding these annoying talking DJs during the music etc.

Now the stock price is $0.13 and they're likely not to survive. I say kill them now and be done with it. Let Stern go to the internet and webcast for all I care.

quote:
Sorry but they ruled its not a monopoly so give it up. if you do not like the music go to the other 700 placed you can get music from. i cancled 2 extra recievers and listen now to www.theradio.com...same music...same service.
Oh sure, the FCC was right about a lot of things, like fining CBS for the whole Janet Jackson nipple thing, eh?


Eat Me

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reply to BF69
said by BF69 See Profile :

I would like to know which TV channels would be getting interference. Since you seem to know.
Probably nearly all of them around here, since at the ground level they are below -114dBm since they are blocked by trees and hills. Well except the religious and Korean broadcasters that are close by.

quote:
So then using your logic cell phones should be banned. So people won't use cell phone jammers.

Cell phone jammers are already illegal but tons of people use them because they are fed up the cell phone nuisance.

I predict that WSD jammers would be used in much the same manner. In fact all I'd need is really a TV transmitter which isn't that hard to get.


Eat Me

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reply to qworster
said by qworster See Profile :

BOY are you wrong-and in bed with the big guys! MILLIONS OF USERS use both bands you have commented about every day-SUCCESSFULLY!! If you take at the number of users in those bands (wireless routers and access points, cordless telephones, audio/video devices and countless other devices) and divide by the size of the two bands in mHz, you'd see that there are literally MILLIONS of users per mHz! How can you in good conscience compare this to low band VHF where under 50 DTV stations will result in 30 mHz of prime VHF spectrum to mostly lay fallow-spectrum that could benefit THOUSANDS of AM radio stations, among others?

White space is a GOOD idea-and the NAB should spend less time fighting it and more time wasting their time and money promoting IBOC-which interferes with fellow broadcasters FAR WORSE then white space ever would!
2.4GHz WiFi devices are limited to milliwatts and low gain rubber duck antennas. If you take apart a typical home router's antenna it is just a piece of wire. Don't forget that 2.4GHz is mostly LoS. It is very limited in the area that will cover and that it will interfere. But try using a 2.4GHz cordless phone in a heavily populated area like NYC. That's why DECT phones are being used now, because 2.4GHz is saturated with WiFi.

About moving AM stations to low VHF. I agree that IBOC is a disaster, but if you can't get people to buy a $40 (free) converter box to watch digital TV, how are you going to get them to buy a VHF radio?


Bit
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3 edits
reply to Eat Me
Yeah, XM was good as making deals with the car industry, making exclusive deals denying Sirius competitive access (eg GM and Honda). It certainly wasn't their horrible commercial filled programming or horrible Oprah channel (that never has Oprah) or the lame Stern wannabes Opie and Anthony XM tried to charge extra for but had to give up on; eventually just making them free and raising rates on all XM subs.

Meanwhile, despite not having the big lucrative car contracts that XM did, Sirius' post-Stern growth smoked XM to the point that Sirius acquired XM and not the other way around. Now I get Sirius' far superior programming in my XM monopolized Acura and superior on-air talent like Stern, Mad Dog and ex-KROQ jocks (from when L.A. radio was the best in the nation).

XM even with their subscriber number agreed to be bought because they saw the writing on the wall...they were going to be destroyed by Sirius as Sirius made more auto contracts and easily outstripped XM in new subscriber adds.

I understand that there were a couple of fans of XM's programming, but in the long run XM would not have survived. XM was the AOL of satellite radio.
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Forums » NAB Sues FCC Over White Space Broadband« The Luddites are coming, the Luddites are coming!  
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