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Smithson

join:2009-03-05
08215-2539

[speed/latency] My Verizon DSL connection is throttled (?)

I will first issue a disclaimer. I am not accusing Verizon of anything, I am simply relating my personal experience with my Verizon DSL connection.

Whether it is due to an intentional, artificial process, or some other factor, my maximum Verizon broadband connexion download speed is capped at 200 kbps. It doesn't matter what, from where, or when I am downloading, I have a maximum 200 kbps download speed.

I'll get a few issues out of the way:

1. I do not anticipate anywhere near the advertised download speeds. All Internet providers are blatantly dishonest about what they will and can deliver in the way of speed. That's a given.

2. I am connecting a single computer directly to the Internet through a Westell 6100 modem. No wireless routers or networks.

3. I have used several different PCs and Laptops on this connexion and always achieve the same result. A 200 kbps download cap.

4. I am not a techy, but hardly a computer illiterate. My systems are all less than 6 months old, and tweaked to peak efficiency. I even clear my old prefetch and browsing history data daily. I have tried computers on the internet connexion in question with both XP and Vista operating systems. Always the same result.

5. When running speed tests with Verizon's own on-line speed testing tool I am told I have 1.5 Mbps download speed. I get a similar result using DSL reports own speed test. However, if I run the test whilst concurrently downloading, the test results change dramatically. The results of my download test speeds drop precipitously and in direct proportion to my current download's rate of data transfer. If I am downloading a file at 50 kbps, then the test results show a 700 kbps download speed. If I am downloading at my 'max' 170 to 200 kbps rate, then the speed test shows a download speed of 300 kbps! My modem also reports a 1.7 mbps transfer rate, so the problem does not lie with my modem. And my download speeds do not improve when I turn off my firewall and Anti-Virus. (Avast)

Now, am I wrong to assume something or someone is throttling my bandwidth? Limiting me to a maximum 200 kbps? Or am I missing something here?

If I try to browse the Internet whilst concurrently downloading at my max 170-200 kbps transfer rate, the pages won't even load. My internet connexion simply doesn't have any resources once I have taxed that 200 kbps cap.

I contacted Verizon on-line and spoke at some length with a technician after working my way through the myriad of overseas customer service personnel. The tech ran a line test, and asserted my connexion was working fine, and at a 1.7 kbps rate of transfer. Rubbish! FIOS is not available in my area of South Jersey, but Verizon advertises several tiers of Broadband speed. I decided I would upgrade to their best package and see if there was any improvement in my rate of transfer. The tech told me he'd connect me to someone who could help me order the upgrade. The same tech came back on the line and informed me a colleague had told him I already have the best package available for my area. Best package available? 1.5 kbps?

This makes me suspicious that my neighbourhood's data pipe/node is highly congested and that the infrastructure is over-extended, and thus Verizon is micromanaging our area's data transfer speeds. I have no doubt my connexion is being throttled at 200 kbps.

If this were the case, how can I prove it? Because if Verizon is artificially limiting my download speed to 200 kbps max, then I have a legitimate grievance. None of us expect the advertised (up-to) speeds, but if my absolute max is set at 200 kbps? Why should I be paying 40 dollars per month for a broadband package which suggests speeds somewhat beyond dial-up?

If someone cannot provide an innocent explanation for this phenomenon, Verizon and their entire customer base will be hearing about my experience. I am not a passive consumer.

Any advice or suggestions would be much appreciated. I ran a DSL Reports line test. Here: »/linequality/7···/2496715

Tollhouse

join:2008-07-15
Wallback, WV

1 recommendation

you are getting what you are paying for. You are making a mistake many of us have made (hell, i've made the same mistakes and i've done tech support for various isp's for 3+ years).

you are mixing up Bytes with Bits. You have a 1.5MegaBIT connection and are downloading at 200kyloBYTES.

In all actuality, you are getting MORE than you are paying for. You should be getting about 155-166kbps on your downloads and you are getting 200.

Enjoy!

Smithson

join:2009-03-05
08215-2539

3 edits
@Tollhouse. Enlightening. I probably should have figured that out. I just called Verizon. Indeed it appears I already have their maximum download package. 200 kbps? Are they kidding? Unless I sell the house and move into my area's FIOS zone, I must sadly resign myself to these semi-Dial-up rates of transfer.

And...Shouldn't the Verizon tech have pointed out that 200 kbps 'was' equivalent to 1.5 Mbps when I initially called about this issue?

Cheers! Mate.

JohnA
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Pittsburgh, PA

Speeds are measured in bits, but a bit is useless, in and of itself. A Byte contains 8 bits, and are the useful measurement in anything you've downloaded. Yes, using bits for speeds makes it a larger, more impressive, number.

Smithson

join:2009-03-05
08215-2539

1 edit
@JohnA - My speed test stats report between 1.5 and 1.7 Mbps.
1 byte = 8 bits. I get an average 180 kbps download, but let's say for simplicity sake I get a 'round' 200. 8 x 200 = 1600 (1.6 Mbps) Thanks to both you and Tollhouse for helping me see the forest for the trees. I am disappointed, but at least satisfied to know everything is as it should be. Thanks to DSL reports as well for this helpful service.

Cheers!

Smithson

JohnA
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Pittsburgh, PA

When you look at your downloads, Capital B is Byte, small b is bit.


Smith6612
Premium,MVM
join:2008-02-01
North Tonawanda, NY
kudos:24
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
·Frontier Communi..

1 edit
reply to Smithson
As explained above, it's just a confusion between bite and bytes. If you know how many bytes make up a kilobyte, same with how many bits make up a kilobit (about 1024 if you want to be rough), 8 kilobits equals a Kilobyte, and 1024 kilobits equals a Megabit. 1024 Kilbytes equals a Megabyte.

At optimal conditions, you should pull the following speeds in KiloBYTES (KB/s) sustained on a Verizon Provisioned line.

768kbps package (old!)

90.6KB/s Download
17KB/s Upload

1Mbps/384Kbps Package
128KB/s Download
49KB/s Upload

1.5Mbps/384kbps speed (is the reduced version of the 3Mbps package, can also be a very old package if long term customer)
188KB/s Download
49KB/s Upload

3Mbps/768kbps package
370KB/s Download
90.7KB/s Upload

5Mbps/768kbps package (reduced 7.1Mbps package)
630KB/s Download
90.7KB/s Upload

7.1Mbps/768kbps Package
890KB/s Download
90.7KB/s Upload

Smithson

join:2009-03-05
08215-2539

1 edit
@Smith6612

1.5Mbps/384kbps speed (is the reduced version of the 3Mbps package, can also be a very old package if long term customer)
188KB/s Download
49KB/s Upload



This is my current speed. I have been told by several Verizon technicians that this is the Max speed available for my area. Although I think this is rather sad commentary on the state of our US communications infrastructure and the greed and irresponsibility of the Cable and Telcom industry, I accept my plight.

However, if 1.5 Mbps (280 Kbps) is the max speed Verizon can provide me, then why am I paying the same price as my brother 5 miles down the road who receives 3 Mbps? I feel like I am paying for something I am not getting and being cheated. Verizon needs to adjust its rates for it's customers located in poorly serviced areas. i.e. areas where the data pipe/node is overly congested due to Verizon's disinterest in upgrading its infrastructure. But why should they have any interest when they can charge me the same price for 180 kbps as someone who receives twice that.

I did manage to get my bill lowered a little after I discovered Verizon On-line had added an unauthorised service to my account: The Broadband security package. Something I did not order and that no broadband user with an anti-virus programme and a firewall on their system needs.

I guess I'll have to sell my house and move two towns over to enjoy the blessings of FIOS...lol
I would rely on Internet cafés before resorting to ConCast.

Thanks for all the input. I should have realised the bit/Byte issue, but we all have those...Duhhh! moments in life. Even ordinarily clever chaps can, on occasion, be manipulated by deceptive corporate marketing tactics.

Smithson.

Cheers!


Jodokast96
Stupid people really piss me off.
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
said by Smithson:

This is my current speed. I have been told by several Verizon technicians that this is the Max speed available for my area. Although I think this is rather sad commentary on the state of our US communications infrastructure and the greed and irresponsibility of the Cable and Telcom industry, I accept my plight.

However, if 1.5 Mbps (280 Kbps) is the max speed Verizon can provide me, then why am I paying the same price as my brother 5 miles down the road who receives 3 Mbps? I feel like I am paying for something I am not getting and being cheated. Verizon needs to adjust its rates for it's customers located in poorly serviced areas. i.e. areas where the data pipe/node is overly congested due to Verizon's disinterest in upgrading its infrastructure. But why should they have any interest when they can charge me the same price for 180 kbps as someone who receives twice that.
That's what you agreed to when you signed up for the service. And if you think it's because you are located in a poorly serviced area and it's from congestion, you really don't know anything about how DSL works. It's distance limited, and by agreeing to the TOS (it's covered this for at least the 5 years I've had service) for the "up to 3mb" service, you agree that because it's distance limited, those speeds are not guaranteed and may result in a lower provisioned speed.

Smithson

join:2009-03-05
08215-2539
That's what you agreed to when you signed up for the service. And if you think it's because you are located in a poorly serviced area and it's from congestion, you really don't know anything about how DSL works. It's distance limited, and by agreeing to the TOS (it's covered this for at least the 5 years I've had service) for the "up to 3mb" service, you agree that because it's distance limited, those speeds are not guaranteed and may result in a lower provisioned speed.

If you want Internet service in my area, you really have no other option but to blindly accept the 'terms of service' because the American telecommunications industry is a monopoly. I have three choices: 1. Accept Verizon's terms. 2. Accept Concast's even worse terms. Or 3. get Dial-up - which is virtually useless. Do you think the customer service rep. reads you the fine print over the phone when you open an account? The standard terms of service contract basically says we (the corporation) will do whatever we want, but we'll try not to be too blatantly unreasonable in order to keep the payments coming in.

DSL is distance related? What does that mean? Please enlighten me. I am always eager to become less ignorant. Distance in relation to what? My brother, who also has Verizon DSL, lives 5 miles from me. He can send information to me at 400+ kbps, and I can send information to him at less than half that rate. Our respective computers are equidistant apart, so if the discrepancy in our download speeds has nothing to do with Verizon's hardware or infrastructure, why are my neighbourhood's max DSL download speeds capped at 180 kbps? I am not getting 'up to' anything. I am artificially throttled at 180 kbps max because the data pipe in my neighbourhood simply cannot handle the transfer rates a higher bandwidth allowance would create. I do not live on top of the Himalayas. My house is just as close to the main highway and utility poles as my brother's. Verizon has told me: 1.5 mbps is the 'only' package available in my area. I am not a Microsoft certified computer specialist or Geek Squader, but I'm not completely stupid either. The datapipe in my area is obviously over-congested, and our bandwidth is being micromanaged.

I have a Max 1.5 mbps download package, the only package available to me. My brother has a 3 mbps package (and he really does get those download speeds) and we're both paying the same price. That was my complaint.

I await further corporate mumbo jumbo.

Smithson.

JohnA
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Pittsburgh, PA
said by Smithson:

DSL is distance related? What does that mean? Please enlighten me. I am always eager to become less ignorant. Distance in relation to what?
Distance in relation to your CO (central office, where your line comes from, and the DSLAMs your internet service is connected to reside). The length of your wire has resistance to the electrical pulses traveling on it. That creates attenuation of the signal. The farther it is, the more attenuation (signal loss). The margins in your stats are actually a ratio of the signal/noise on the line at the modem. As the signal shrinks in relation to the noise the margins lower. Numerically 10 is a decent margin, but at @6 you will experience problems/disconnects.

You can pull the transceiver stats, and post them if you want and someone will look at them. Post your brother's too if you have them. The differences should be obvious.


Jodokast96
Stupid people really piss me off.
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
reply to Smithson
said by Smithson:

If you want Internet service in my area, you really have no other option but to blindly accept the 'terms of service' because the American telecommunications industry is a monopoly. I have three choices: 1. Accept Verizon's terms. 2. Accept Concast's even worse terms. Or 3. get Dial-up - which is virtually useless.
The same as the rest of us. That you entered into it blindly without reading the fine print is your fault, no one elses. Take some responsibility for your own inactions in not reading any further.

said by Smithson:

Do you think the customer service rep. reads you the fine print over the phone when you open an account?
Did you ask them to? Did you do any research into what you signed on to? Did you go to the website and read the TOS for yourself while you still had 30 days to cancel service if you were unhappy with it?

said by Smithson:

The standard terms of service contract basically says we (the corporation) will do whatever we want, but we'll try not to be too blatantly unreasonable in order to keep the payments coming in.
Again, it was your choice to accept it or not. If you were that unhappy with the terms, then you didn't have to agree with them. But of course, you never really read them now, did you?

said by Smithson:

DSL is distance related? What does that mean? Please enlighten me. I am always eager to become less ignorant. Distance in relation to what? My brother, who also has Verizon DSL, lives 5 miles from me. He can send information to me at 400+ kbps, and I can send information to him at less than half that rate. Our respective computers are equidistant apart, so if the discrepancy in our download speeds has nothing to do with Verizon's hardware or infrastructure, why are my neighbourhood's max DSL download speeds capped at 180 kbps? I am not getting 'up to' anything. I am artificially throttled at 180 kbps max because the data pipe in my neighbourhood simply cannot handle the transfer rates a higher bandwidth allowance would create. I do not live on top of the Himalayas. My house is just as close to the main highway and utility poles as my brother's. Verizon has told me: 1.5 mbps is the 'only' package available in my area. I am not a Microsoft certified computer specialist or Geek Squader, but I'm not completely stupid either. The datapipe in my area is obviously over-congested, and our bandwidth is being micromanaged.
You may not be completely stupid, but you have ZERO clue as to how DSL works. Not just Verizon DSL, ANY DSL. There is no over-congestion (not that it isn't possible; but far more likely with cable) or micromanagement of speed.

said by Smithson:

I have a Max 1.5 mbps download package, the only package available to me. My brother has a 3 mbps package (and he really does get those download speeds) and we're both paying the same price. That was my complaint.
Answered at least 3 times above.

said by Smithson:

I await further corporate mumbo jumbo.
Nothing corporate about it. Just some plain old consumer due diligence.

Smithson

join:2009-03-05
08215-2539
SMITHSON:"I have a Max 1.5 mbps download package, the only package available to me. My brother has a 3 mbps package (and he really does get those download speeds) and we're both paying the same price. That was my complaint."

"Answered at least 3 times above."

So your answer is that: Verizon can do whatever they want and if I don't like it I have the option to go without an Internet connexion? That would be sound advice if I as a consumer had any viable options. It's Verizon, Concast, or Dial-Up. 'In my opinion' Concast is the greediest company on the planet, and I refuse to deal with them. Dial-Up isn't a viable option in the 21st century. So it's Verizon or nothing. There is a communications monopoly in this country. Fact. Companies such as Concast and Verizon have not kept up with the pace of Internet technology as have such countries as Japan and Denmark, and that is also a fact. The American communications infrastructure is outdated and inadequate to meet the needs of our contemporary digital world. Your self-satisfied hyperbole and dismissive tone do nothing to discredit my assertions, which are common knowledge to anyone who doesn't listen to Verizon's marketing waffle or have a stake in defending it.

As for the pricing issue: Basically you are suggesting that if I go to the produce market and the guy in line ahead of me is charged 1.00 per pound for Iceberg lettuce (there is not a special sale), but I am charged 1.00 per half pound of the same exact lettuce, I should either accept the discrepancy without complaint or go to another produce outlet?

And I understand exactly how DSl works. A data-pipe can't be congested or a node doesn't have a max capacity? Are you kidding me?

Cheers!

Smithson.

Smithson

join:2009-03-05
08215-2539
reply to JohnA
@JohnA

Thank you for the informative and well considered reply. My resentment is related to the fact that Verizon can only provide a 1.5 mbps package for my area, but is charging me the same rate as my brother who Verizon can provide with a 3 mbps package. My brother and I live 5 miles apart. Am I wrong to suggest Verizon should perhaps standardise it's pricing structure? I'm not talking about the bait and switch set period promotional 'bargain' rates. But the every day rates. I pay roughly 40 dollars for 180 kbps max transfer, my brother pays the same for double that.

As for the distance issue?: I can download at my max rate of 180 kbps whether the uploading server is located in the UK, Australia or across the street, so I am still not sure how the information you have provided relates to why my neighbourhood's data transfer rate is capped at a precise 180 kbps. Another poster is suggesting this cap is not a result of Verizon's artificially shaping the traffic in my area or managing our data transfer rates. Really? Hmmm...

Best regards,

Smithson.

Eldega

join:2008-08-17
East Elmhurst, NY
reply to Smithson
It does seem that you think that a DSL connection is shared among a neighborhood data line, like cable.
DSL subscribers have a dedicated connection, and so you're more likely to get the speeds you are paying for.

I would suggest you take a read at this link:
»computer.howstuffworks.com/dsl1.htm


birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9

1 edit
reply to Smithson
I think Smith6612 had the clue in his post about speed packages.

The distance-related issue: the longer the distance between you and your Central Office, the lower the bandwidth you can get reliably. I would make a guess your brother either has a different exchange or CO than you, or is a lot closer to it than you are. Distance is length of wire, not as the crow flies. And, to make a phone line useable at longer distances, there may be taps or load coils, that are great at voice frequencies, but kill the higher frequencies used for DSL signal.

So, Verizon used to have 1 DSL package up to 1.5M/368K, but then they came out with the DSL Lite at 768K/128K, and if you were close enough to the CO 3.0M/768K.

Then they upped the speeds for the existing packages. That's when they went to ADSL2 or whatever it is now. You can get 1M/384K (used to be 768K/128K), or 3M/768K (used to be 1.5M/384K), or 7.1M/768K (used to be 3M/768K). You signed up for a package, they tried to deliver it, but sometimes it couldn't be done reliably. They either bumped you down a tier, or you accepted the best you could get from the higher tier.

If you are close to the CO and you can get 7.1M, but you sign up for 3.0M because it's cheaper, yes your speed is capped. But if your line conditions are weaker so the best you can get is 6.0M instead of 7.1, your line is capped at 7.1 but your line can't transmit more than 6.0. In this scenario you are not throttled (well, except to 7.1).

The 5M/768K package evolved because there were people who said they couldn't get 7.1M so why were they paying so much for it. Sort of like you're saying with 3 and 1.5

So to say it again slightly differently: The equipment in the CO is throttled to your speed tier, and the line conditions affect what you actually receive up to that throttle limit.

Getting the best speed is not always easy. The database said my line was only 4,000 feet, but the best I could get was 1.5M/384K back in 2004. I switched to Speakeasy who got me up to 3M/768K probably because they had better equipment in the CO. In 2006, I switched to FiOS when it became available.

Your complaint about the monopoly -- like there's anything you or I could do about that.

It's not a broadband monopoly if you can get Comcast. And I'd venture to say there might be another CLEC DSL provider available to you, but that's what you'd need to check out if you want.

My approach is to look at what's available and work with it in the confines of what I'm willing to pay. Based on your description through the several posts in this thread, I'd say you're probably getting as good as you can get based on line conditions. You may be able to get better, but you'd need to sweet-talk tech support to get a truck roll to check lines. But if the length doesn't support the speed you want, all you'll get is "that's the best you can get."

[edit to add] See the discussion in this thread »[service tier(s)] 1.5 to 3 free upgrade? It may shed a little more light on what you're dealing with.


Jodokast96
Stupid people really piss me off.
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
reply to Smithson
said by Smithson:

So your answer is that: Verizon can do whatever they want and if I don't like it I have the option to go without an Internet connexion?
Not at all. You have a choice. The same exact choice I and most of the others here have. Whether you feel it's a good one isn't relevant.

said by Smithson:

In my opinion' Concast is the greediest company on the planet, and I refuse to deal with them.
And that is a choice you've made. No one mandated you had to use Verizon.

said by Smithson:

There is a communications monopoly in this country. Fact.
100% False. What single company controls everything?

said by Smithson:

Companies such as Concast and Verizon have not kept up with the pace of Internet technology as have such countries as Japan and Denmark, and that is also a fact. The American communications infrastructure is outdated and inadequate to meet the needs of our contemporary digital world.
Not totally true either. Penetration may not be as great, but those countries aren't using any technologies that are any more advanced than anything here. And they haven't had anywhere near the subsidies nor the vast areas to cover as in other countries.

said by Smithson:

Your self-satisfied hyperbole and dismissive tone do nothing to discredit my assertions, which are common knowledge to anyone who doesn't listen to Verizon's marketing waffle or have a stake in defending it.
You do a good enough job of discrediting yourself. The only stake I have in Verizon is the inernet connection they offer me. Do you hear me crying because I can't get 7.1?

said by Smithson:

As for the pricing issue: Basically you are suggesting that if I go to the produce market and the guy in line ahead of me is charged 1.00 per pound for Iceberg lettuce (there is not a special sale), but I am charged 1.00 per half pound of the same exact lettuce, I should either accept the discrepancy without complaint or go to another produce outlet?
Uh, yes. But don't leave out the important part. That sign stating that if you don't meet certain requirements, that will be the price you pay telling you that before you get to the register.

said by Smithson:

And I understand exactly how DSl works.


No, you really don't understand how it works. As evidenced by:

said by Smithson:

A data-pipe can't be congested or a node doesn't have a max capacity? Are you kidding me?
Never said that. As a matter of fact I did say that it can happen. But that's not what's happening here, but you either just don't get it or refuse to listen to what's being told to you.

JohnA
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Pittsburgh, PA
reply to Smithson

I'm out. Have a nice day.


Jodokast96
Stupid people really piss me off.
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
kudos:2
said by JohnA:

I'm out. Have a nice day.
Can't say I blame you there.

VirtualLarry
Premium
join:2003-08-01
Reviews:
·DSL EXTREME
reply to Smithson
said by Smithson:

As for the pricing issue: Basically you are suggesting that if I go to the produce market and the guy in line ahead of me is charged 1.00 per pound for Iceberg lettuce (there is not a special sale), but I am charged 1.00 per half pound of the same exact lettuce, I should either accept the discrepancy without complaint or go to another produce outlet?
It's more like they are charging $1 for a head of lettuce, whether or not they are one pound or a half pound.
And the guy ahead of you in line just got the last one pound head, and you're left with the half-pound heads.
Them's the breaks.

This entire thread is a circus of cluelessness.

Smithson

join:2009-03-05
08215-2539

1 edit
reply to Smithson
"This entire thread is a circus of cluelessness."

I am here looking for clues and enlightenment and never represented myself as possessing a masters in Internet technology. If I was interested in simply bashing Verizon, there are many, many sites where I could do this to a deafening roar of applause. I didn't notice that this website was named 'DSL experts & Verizon fans only non-technicians keep out dot com.' I thank the posters such as Birdfeedr who have provided serviceable information rather than scorn and criticism. Simply presenting facts to counter my alleged 'misapprehensions' would have been far more productive than simply telling me how stupid and clueless I am.

FIOS is inching it's way in my direction. Until the glorious day it arrives at my door, I'll resign myself to my third world Internet service.

Hopefully we can leave of here without any further sniping. But I understand that this is a form of recreation for some people.

Cheers!

Smithson.


tim_k
Buttons, Bows, Beamer, Shadow, Kasey
Premium,VIP
join:2002-02-02
Stewartstown, PA
kudos:40
said by Smithson:

FIOS is inching it's way in my direction. Until the glorious day it arrives at my door, I'll resign myself to my third world Internet service
You have more options than many of us. I have two, EVDO or satellite. Both slower and more expensive than what you can get.

said by Eldega:

It does seem that you think that a DSL connection is shared among a neighborhood data line, like cable.
DSL subscribers have a dedicated connection, and so you're more likely to get the speeds you are paying for.

I would suggest you take a read at this link:
»computer.howstuffworks.com/dsl1.htm
DSL is shared, only it's shared at the DSLAM. The difference is you will usually sync at full speed all the time, but you won't be able to route or download at full speed when the DSLAM is congested.
--
RIP my babys Buttons 1/15/94-2/9/07 & Beamer 7/24/08, Buttons, Buttons video, Beamer


Dolgan
Premium
join:2005-10-01
Sun Prairie, WI
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to Smithson
quote:
I am here looking for clues and enlightenment and never represented myself as possessing a masters in Internet technology. If I was interested in simply bashing Verizon, there are many, many sites where I could do this to a deafening roar of applause. I didn't notice that this website was named 'DSL experts & Verizon fans only non-technicians keep out dot com.'
You brought upon yourself with your own snide comments and misstaements.

quote:
FIOS is inching it's way in my direction. Until the glorious day it arrives at my door, I'll resign myself to my third world Internet service
Once again you misaccurately portray yourself as a broadband have not. You have at least 2 choices for service, where many have no broadband choice. And you wonder why people are sniping?


Jodokast96
Stupid people really piss me off.
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
said by Dolgan:


quote:
FIOS is inching it's way in my direction. Until the glorious day it arrives at my door, I'll resign myself to my third world Internet service
Once again you misaccurately portray yourself as a broadband have not. You have at least 2 choices for service, where many have no broadband choice. And you wonder why people are sniping?
»Everything's amazing, nobody's happy


tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:9
Reviews:
·G4 Communications
·Fairpoint Commun..
·Hollis Hosting

1 edit
reply to Smithson
To Summarize:

1) Communication networks are specified in bits per second. Computers work on chunks of data. Speed is reported in bytes per second. 1-Bps (byte per second) = 8-bps (bits per second). This is not a conspiracy it is an artifact of history of both industries.

2) DSL, unlike Cable, is a point-to-point link between customer and DSL access multiplexer (DSLAM). DSLAM is normally located at telephone switching office but may also be in a remote terminal (RT).

3) DSL is distance limited. Circuit characteristics and crosstalk from hundreds of other circuits in the same cable limit maximum distance to about 18,000 feet. Shorter the circuit the faster DSL is able to transport data.

4) Beyond DSLAM traffic is combined with other customers. Normally communication takes place at near speed of light but if network gets congested packets get delayed or in extreme cases dropped. Recovery mechanisms built in to DSL and the Internet hid most of these problems. They only become apparent in extreme cases.

5) If you check out Verizon web site you will notice speed is listed as up to. DSL link speed is set to either 3360/864 or 1792/448 depending on capabilities of customer’s phone line. Notice sync speed is substantial higher then marketed speed. This is done to compensate for network overhead so when customers perform speed test most of the time they get close to marketed speed.

They have a similar arrangement on 7100/768 tier where they drop speed to 5000 if circuit cannot sustain 7100. It is a trade-off for them as to how many tiers they support and inevitable confusion about speed.

6) US has chosen not to adopt a broadband policy. Broadband is largely unregulated. Companies enter market areas they think will be profitable. Competition exists but most of us have few broadband choices.

/tom


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to Smithson
said by Smithson:

@JohnA

Thank you for the informative and well considered reply. My resentment is related to the fact that Verizon can only provide a 1.5 mbps package for my area, but is charging me the same rate as my brother who Verizon can provide with a 3 mbps package.
Different companies have different policies. I believe Qwest charges two tiers: "Up to 3 Mb/s", and "Up to 7 Mb/s". What you get is determined by your distance from the DSLAM.

AT&T charges four tiers: 768 kb/s - $19.95, 1.5 Mb/s - $25, 3.0 Mb/s - $30, and 6.0 Mb/s - $35. If you are too far out to get 3.0 Mb/s, you can opt for 1.5 Mb/s for $5 a month less.

Looking at the Verizon site, they seem to have a "one price fits all users" plan: $39.99 per month. No matter which of three tiers you sign up for. So you pay the same as somebody getting as much as 7 Mb/s.
My brother and I live 5 miles apart. Am I wrong to suggest Verizon should perhaps standardise it's pricing structure?
From what I can see, Verizon has a standard price structure; more so than Qwest (two price tiers), or AT&T (four price tiers).
As for the distance issue?: I can download at my max rate of 180 kbps whether the uploading server is located in the UK, Australia or across the street, so I am still not sure how the information you have provided relates to why my neighbourhood's data transfer rate is capped at a precise 180 kbps. Another poster is suggesting this cap is not a result of Verizon's artificially shaping the traffic in my area or managing our data transfer rates. Really?
It is not about your distance from the server, but your distance from the DSLAM. At 9,156 feet (MLT estimate), I am good for 3.0 Mb/s, but not for 6.0 Mb/s (the highest tier offered by AT&T). I've run my numbers through a DMT calculator. My modem does not estimate my Max Rate (maximum synch rate), but the bin tone numbers it reports can be used to calculate an estimated Max Rate. Mine bounces between 4400 kb/s and 5200 kb/s. I could get a better Max Rate just by moving to a premises closer to the DSLAM.

No matter where, in the world, the servers are located, I can only pull at ~319 KB/s (after allowing for a 15% overhead; ATTIS doesn't compensate for overhead by raising the modem synch speed); unless the remote server is unable to keep up with me (your 96 KB/s upload would be heavily taxed by my ~319 KB/s download! But I'd have download capacity to spare.)

--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


NoelC
D S L R Bliss
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-03
Florida
kudos:1
Just one tidbit further of information from one who has worked in the datacom and telecom industries for a lifetime...

Don't try to just "divide by 8" to get Bytes-per-second from bits-per-second. It's not that simple in that there is some protocol overhead. What I mean by that is that there are additional bits involved in the communications process that do nothing but help manage the process, not carry your data.

I usually use a 10 to 1 ratio as a rule of thumb, mostly because it's a better estimate and it's quite easy.

-Noel

Smithson

join:2009-03-05
08215-2539
reply to Smithson
@Jodokast96

There are many helpful and educational posts in this thread made by thoughtful, serious minded individuals. I think Verizon would do itself a service when assigning trolls to monitor these sites to select people who are a little more sophisticated in their methods than simply belittling a poster and making him seem foolish in order to neutralise negative PR. Whatever the issue regarding dsl service packages, would you like me to present the 'facts' of how Verizon recently added their broadband security suite to my account without my consent? Verizon is obviously up to their old tricks padding customer accounts with charges related to services they did not order or even need hoping the additional charges will go unnoticed. That verizon has done this in the past is a matter of public record. Go ahead and deny this and tell me how stupid I am, and prove your real intentions on this site.

Regards,

Smithson


Jodokast96
Stupid people really piss me off.
Premium
join:2005-11-23
Erial, NJ
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL

1 edit

2 recommendations

My record on this site speaks for itself, far more loudly and with far greater weight and respect than anything coming from you. Ask around, go back to any of the threads I've posted in here over the years, and you may just see for yourself. Funny you try to label me a troll, yet it's your own behaviour that fits far better than my own. You come here out of nowhere spewing conspiracy theories, think you know more than you do, and don't care to listen to a damn word anyone tells you. You just keep hammering away with your own thoughts and beliefs, truth be damned. This last reply of yours is just more proof that you have little idea of what you are talking about. You know nothing about me, yet in your own little world, you think you do. Actuallly taking some time to do a little research on your own would quickly and easily show you how wrong you are. Here, I'll help get you started »/nsearch?q=jod···66015719. I don't give two craps about Verizon getting any negative PR, and have quite often hammered them when it was warranted. I'd point you to some of the "nice" exchanges I've had with the moron phone reps who come and post here with their holier than thou attitudes and bogus, scripted responses, and then you would see what belittling is. However, the Mods removed them long ago. If showing you exactly where your comments were wrong (after a number of people already explained things to you) makes you feel foolish and belittled, that's really not the fault of anyone here. Not one person had anything derogatory to say about you except for..............YOU. You are the one applying labels of, and I quote, "stupid", "foolish", "clueless", "belittled", and "ignorant". I never once made any such personal statement towards you. Yet that hasn't seemed to stop you from throwing derogatory labels and personal insults in my direction. The worst I've said is that you don't know jack about DSL, and I stand by that. There are enough facts in this thread to show that. When someone post BS or flat out wrong info, I will call them on it, and hope others do the same to me. It's bad enough being wrong about something, but passing on bad info is much worse, and it's not something I care to do. If I wanted to do that, I would work for Verizon, as one of those ever so helpful people you speak to when calling with a problem. I'm not saying I'm not guilty of ever doing it, but I don't like it and do my very best to make sure what I pass on is correct.

To comment on your latest complaint, yeah, they have done it in the past. A lot? I don't know. I'll be very generous here and say 30-50 instances of it mentioned in my 3+ years here (if you find it's more, share them, I'm not afraid to be shown I'm wrong). Is it right? Hell no. But if you called and easily had it removed, I don't know what more you want anyone to do. I'll say this though, if you thing Verizon DSL billing is bad, wait until you get FIOS. Lot's of nightmares there from what I hear.


birdfeedr
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-11
Warwick, RI
kudos:9

2 recommendations

reply to Smithson
I would hardly consider Jodokast a Verizon troll, as it is clear he's been a very helpful presence in this forum. But if he really *was* a Verizon troll, you'd see his efforts concentrated in Verizon forums, don't you think? If you look at his post history, that's simply not the case.

Looking at your post history, well, all I can say is welcome to DSLReports.

As for your complaint about an added package to your Verizon service, there's no denying Verizon has problems with
• a horrible billing system that's too rigid and inflexible,
• some poorly trained CSRs,
• some poorly trained level 1 TSRs, maybe higher,
• inability to pierce that barrier to get higher quality service and first-time problem resolution.

I would say it *could* be an innocent mistake. Since I've never had to deal with their computer database system, but I have heard plenty of complaints posted here, it seems like it could be a possibility.

Because there *are* call center metrics that seem to influence how long someone will stay on the phone, it *is* possible that you'll get an answer that's intended to just get you off the line.

"Evil big business with no care for the paying customer"? Maybe, but only if I need an excuse to be pissed off. Otherwise, I just pay attention to details month in, month out because mistakes and problems will always occur. Does that make me a VZ apologist or a shill or a fanboi? Don't think so, and I don't care.

Too bad there's not nearly as many people posting how they're happy with VZ service, as there are people who have problems of soe sort. Because I think there's far more of the former than there are of the latter.

Like I said, welcome to DSLReports. At least there's people here who can answer some questions. Now, just imagine if all you heard here was crickets.