Topic 'Re: Business plan neglects the broadband ISPs' in forum '' - dslreports.com http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22119549 en Sat, 11 Feb 2012 14:48:21 EDT Sat, 11 Feb 2012 14:48:21 EDT Re: Business plan neglects the broadband ISPs http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22139497
I am sure the last point you and him really didn't like...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22139497 Fri, 27 Mar 2009 16:47:24 EDT Re: Business plan neglects the broadband ISPs http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22127691 said by tubbynet:

of course, this is purely speculattion based on what we think bandwidth usage will be. who knows if they have some way of transferring information hither and yon without intensive bandwidth usage.
Onlive says bandwidth usage will be huge - about 1GB/hr.

»tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090325/···ng_games
The company puts the data usage at just under a gigabyte per hour of high-definition gaming. The only Internet application with comparable consumption is high-definition video, like movies bought through iTunes, watched on Netflix Inc.'s streaming service, or downloaded from file-sharing networks.

A service unveiled this week aims to stream video games over the Internet, setting gamers on a collision course with cable and phone companies that are seeking to curb growing demands on their networks by charging for heavy usage.

For instance, Comcast Corp., the country's second-largest ISP, limits usage to 250 gigabytes per month, and cuts off repeat violators. OnLive says its users would need to play around the clock for nearly 12 straight days to reach that.

However, other Internet service providers are trying lower limits, then charging extra for those who go over. It's not clear which approach will win out, but subscribers on low-limit ISPs could quickly find themselves paying far more for their Internet connection, particularly since many gamers spend more than 20 hours a week on a game.

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Or one could draw the conclusion that they (or he) understand the cost to businesses. These unforeseen events are game changers for businesses that have a model in place.
The simplistic view of this is unfortunately the prevailing one these days. "I want what I want when I want it" with no consideration of the ramification for these desires. If you've got a argument with his position then make it...otherwise you just look like a shill for the ignorant!




Let me ask you a question. I am a customer of Comcast Internet Services. What do you consider fair use of my Internet connection? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22127486 Wed, 25 Mar 2009 15:25:05 EDT Re: Business plan neglects the broadband ISPs http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22124219 said by compton:

said by S_engineer:

said by Skippy25:

First off you are a shill so your opinion about what is good for consumers holds little water.
you lost any credibility with the sentences that followed this remark!



No, he hasn't lost any credibility with that statement. The reason why is every time a new service is announced there is a group of people here who take the position that the service is unfair to the ISP. When these same people time after time take very simplistic positions that favors the ISP at all cost then a reasonable conclusion could be that they are shill.
Or one could draw the conclusion that they (or he) understand the cost to businesses. These unforeseen events are game changers for businesses that have a model in place.
The simplistic view of this is unfortunately the prevailing one these days. "I want what I want when I want it" with no consideration of the ramification for these desires. If you've got a argument with his position then make it...otherwise you just look like a shill for the ignorant!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22124219 Wed, 25 Mar 2009 01:21:16 EDT Re: Doesn't really sound possible http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22123554 said by Kearnstd:

its a bad model because people expect a game console to be useful if the net is up or not. if my net is down i cant play WoW, but i can sure know my Xbox and PS2/PS3 will still load up a game in single player mode and distract me while the net gets worked on.
Yes but the big idea in this particular situation is the same one Blizzard has. Even though your connection is down and you can't play, your still paying your monthly fee. ;)

Then again considering not one person who replied to this article knows anything about how this really works, how do we all know that they don't have single player games for offline mode like Steam does?
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"I like to reffer to myself as an Adult Film Efficienato." - Stuart Bondeck]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22123554 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 22:46:34 EDT Re: Doesn't really sound possible http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22123485 said by tiger72:

said by Kearnstd:

its a bad model because people expect a game console to be useful if the net is up or not. if my net is down i cant play WoW, but i can sure know my Xbox and PS2/PS3 will still load up a game in single player mode and distract me while the net gets worked on.
This I can totally agree with.



Then don't buy the service. When you buy the service you know it depends on your Internet connection. If the possibility of your Internet service being interrupted is a deal breaker then it's not for you. What's so hard about that. I and many millions of people have VOIP phone service. We know that it depends on our Internet service, but we still got it anyway, because Internet service is very reliable these days. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22123485 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 22:31:03 EDT Re: Business plan neglects the broadband ISPs http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22123419 said by S_engineer:

said by Skippy25:

First off you are a shill so your opinion about what is good for consumers holds little water.
you lost any credibility with the sentences that followed this remark!



No, he hasn't lost any credibility with that statement. The reason why is every time a new service is announced there is a group of people here who take the position that the service is unfair to the ISP. When these same people time after time take very simplistic positions that favors the ISP at all cost then a reasonable conclusion could be that they are shill. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22123419 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 22:19:10 EDT Re: Business plan neglects the broadband ISPs http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22122737 said by Skippy25:

First off you are a shill so your opinion about what is good for consumers holds little water.
you lost any credibility with the sentences that followed this remark!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22122737 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 20:17:38 EDT Re: Doesn't really sound possible http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22122429 said by Ahrenl:

Agreed. Playing against the computer is fun for only the five minutes it takes to intuite the algorithm that sets its strategy.
I guess you have not played the Killzone 2 AI. Their AI is the first that really impressed me. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22122429 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 19:18:28 EDT Re: Doesn't really sound possible http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22122428 said by Nightfall:

The whole idea of using "big iron servers" to do all the AI, graphics, and so on and dumping just the graphics to your TV does sound cool. I just don't see how possible it is. I guess we will see how the product looks when (if) it is released.
I think its very much possible (explore the concept of Xclient/Xserver), however, the bandwidth requirements are pretty high EVEN for an application like firefox. Possible yes, usable? Probably not. This will defiantly be something interesting to look for though. They may even just use the Xclient/Xserver idea...we will see.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22122428 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 19:18:20 EDT Re: Doesn't really sound possible http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22122058 said by Bootes:

But the vast majority have crappy stories.
The vast majority of people in multiplayer are crappy as well.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22122058 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:06:15 EDT Re: Doesn't really sound possible http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22121888 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22121888 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:27:59 EDT Re: Doesn't really sound possible http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22121842 said by Ahrenl:

Agreed. Playing against the computer is fun for only the five minutes it takes to intuite the algorithm that sets its strategy.
Which is only true if your doing something stupid like playing a FPS deathmatch game with bots.

Single player typically revolves around a STORY. You do realize some games have quite amazing plots right?
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Forum Posts:7500]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22121842 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:18:26 EDT Re: Business plan neglects the broadband ISPs http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22121832 said by Skippy25:

First off you are a shill
Every time the accusation of industry shill is trotted out, this will be the reply:

"This mode of reasoning is a logical fallacy known as ad hominem: attacking the person presenting the argument, instead of pointing out a flaw in their actual argument. It's a fallacy because even if the criticism of the person is true, his argument may still be valid. You can only tell if the argument is valid by examining the actual argument to see if it is actually valid.

Attacking the person instead of the argument they present is intellectually lazy. It's a substitute for thinking. It's also 100% flawed reasoning: you don't arrive at the conclusion from the argument presented."
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2. The consumer paying for unlimited service should be able to use their unlimited service as they see fit. It's not the consumer's fault that their ISP's network is oversold. Hell, even with data caps, consumers have the right to use up their data caps for whatever service they want. The proportion of the bandwidth is irrelevant. How is this any different than me using bittorrent 24/7, usenet 24/7, netflix 24/7, or downloading the entire Steam catalog? What I use that bandwidth for is irrelevant.
I agree. In addition I feel that the overage charges if/when I go over the cap should not be more than the charges for the connection with cap. IOW: If I hypothetically pay $50/month for my connection and have 250GB/Month cap then if I use 500GB this month, I should pay NO MORE THAN (and probably much less than) $50 for my 250GB overage.

I am keeping this simple (and not suggesting the fairer method of Roll-Over usage in lieu of the current "Use It or Lose It" system for your PAID FOR usage up to the Cap). I am being sold 250GB of usage for my $50. Thus 250GB of extra usage is worth ONLY $50 given that that was the cost of the first 250GB (and allocating nothing to the cost of the connection/etc). Since the connection/etc is a sunk cost (ie: I pay it no matter what my usage is), I do not see why the overage (which has had that cost FULLY PAID from the initial charge) should not just be based on a $0 fixed cost with all the usage being allocated to the usage. If fact, if I add a 2nd modem NOW to my account, I get the same charge on the modem as on my original one (and get the same bandwidth and cap as the first modem so why is the charge for overage on the original modem more than if I had two modems [ie: Was two separate customers each at just under the 250GB/Month cap]?).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22121765 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:06:11 EDT Re: Business plan neglects the broadband ISPs http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22121087
The costs of communications capacity are much greater than the costs of adding computational ability at the end point and it is likely that things will stay this way for the foreseeable future. Centralizing computational ability in exchange for shifting massive additional burden onto the communications pipe makes no economic sense.

I also have a intellectual tendency that loathes the idea of everything in the cloud. It's a rehash of an outdated client/server for everything model. Back in the day most computational ability was controlled by a small cadre of high priests running the data center. Why would anyone want to go back to those days? Because they think it is going to save them a few hundred dollars every couple of years upgrading their hardware at home? You think it won't cost you many times over what you save?
Concentrating control and ownership of computational ability is the opposite of the direction we should be moving. The personal computer was enormously liberating, it unleashed massive amounts of innovation and the decentralized ownership and control of computing it provides has been immensely beneficial to all of us. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22121087 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:05:41 EDT Re: Business plan neglects the broadband ISPs http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22120628
Second, if a bulk of the processing is done at the server end then only screen refreshes are used much like a virtual terminal then the bandwidth used would be minimal.

Lastly, the rules do need to change. The ISP's need to become the dumbpipes they are and stop refusing to acknowledge this.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22120628 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:50:58 EDT Re: Doesn't really sound possible http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22120569 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22120569 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:41:16 EDT Re: Business plan neglects the broadband ISPs http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22120519 said by ThrowDemsOut:

But Onlive's business plan isn't reflecting the reality of broadband use and the caps. You can talk all day about how ISPs shouldn't have caps(and that is refusing to accept reality too), but they do, and Onlive is doomed if they don't take that in to account. Maybe they are waiting for the idiots in the government to change the rules for them.
of course, this is purely speculattion based on what we think bandwidth usage will be. who knows if they have some way of transferring information hither and yon without intensive bandwidth usage. additionally, one must challenge the norms put forth for any change to occur. the internet is changing and if the isps don't see that, then it will be the job of the customers to *make* them see this. sure, it will be rough for a little bit, but it is the only way in the long run.

q.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22120519 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:33:53 EDT Re: Business plan neglects the broadband ISPs http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22120448 said by tiger72:

1. I guarantee Onlive isn't paying for a consumer "unlimited" service. They are probably doing what other broadband-centric models have followed (Steam, Netflix) by negotiating low per/GB pricing. To put it more simply, they are paying for their consumption on their end.
2. The consumer paying for unlimited service should be able to use their unlimited service as they see fit. It's not the consumer's fault that their ISP's network is oversold. Hell, even with data caps, consumers have the right to use up their data caps for whatever service they want. The proportion of the bandwidth is irrelevant. How is this any different than me using bittorrent 24/7, usenet 24/7, netflix 24/7, or downloading the entire Steam catalog? What I use that bandwidth for is irrelevant.
But Onlive's business plan isn't reflecting the reality of broadband use and the caps. You can talk all day about how ISPs shouldn't have caps(and that is refusing to accept reality too), but they do, and Onlive is doomed if they don't take that in to account. Maybe they are waiting for the idiots in the government to change the rules for them.
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its a bad model because people expect a game console to be useful if the net is up or not. if my net is down i cant play WoW, but i can sure know my Xbox and PS2/PS3 will still load up a game in single player mode and distract me while the net gets worked on.
i only like to play with actual other people, so i could care less about single player games.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22120163 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:37:01 EDT Re: Business plan neglects the broadband ISPs http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22120134 Now services such as this give the ISPs the excuse to lower caps even further under the guise of a bandwidth crunch, expediting the the initiation of overage costs. This will hurt the mass consumer.

[/My Ms. Cleo moment]
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"When I was in junior high school, the teachers voted me the student most likely to end up in the electric chair."---Sylvestor Stallone]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22120134 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:33:02 EDT Re: Doesn't really sound possible http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22120000 said by Kearnstd:

its a bad model because people expect a game console to be useful if the net is up or not. if my net is down i cant play WoW, but i can sure know my Xbox and PS2/PS3 will still load up a game in single player mode and distract me while the net gets worked on.
This I can totally agree with.
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"What makes us omniscient? Have we a record of omniscience? ...If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning."
-United States Secretary of Defense (1961-1968) Robert S. McNamara]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22120000 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:11:17 EDT Re: Doesn't really sound possible http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22119993 --
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22119993 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:10:03 EDT Re: Business plan neglects the broadband ISPs http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22119961 said by S_engineer:

said by tiger72:

said by ThrowDemsOut:

This is a really stupid business plan in that it transfers the heavy lifting(all that extra bandwidth consumed) to the broadband ISPs without any consideration of added costs on their part.

And any people playing games on this service will quickly hit the broadband caps that are becoming ever more prevalent.
You're totally right. Because the consumer AND "Onlive" aren't paying ISP's for their bandwidth.
totally

Oh wait, they are.
Its irrelevant if they're paying ISPs or not because of the disproportionate amount of bandwidth to be used. This was the excuse for imposing caps. If ISPs decided to market additional bandwidth to an enterprise like this it would undercut their argument about a bandwidth crunch.
1. I guarantee Onlive isn't paying for a consumer "unlimited" service. They are probably doing what other broadband-centric models have followed (Steam, Netflix) by negotiating low per/GB pricing. To put it more simply, they are paying for their consumption on their end.
2. The consumer paying for unlimited service should be able to use their unlimited service as they see fit. It's not the consumer's fault that their ISP's network is oversold. Hell, even with data caps, consumers have the right to use up their data caps for whatever service they want. The proportion of the bandwidth is irrelevant. How is this any different than me using bittorrent 24/7, usenet 24/7, netflix 24/7, or downloading the entire Steam catalog? What I use that bandwidth for is irrelevant.
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"What makes us omniscient? Have we a record of omniscience? ...If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning."
-United States Secretary of Defense (1961-1968) Robert S. McNamara]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22119961 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:04:40 EDT Re: Business plan neglects the broadband ISPs http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22119859 said by tiger72:

said by ThrowDemsOut:

This is a really stupid business plan in that it transfers the heavy lifting(all that extra bandwidth consumed) to the broadband ISPs without any consideration of added costs on their part.

And any people playing games on this service will quickly hit the broadband caps that are becoming ever more prevalent.
You're totally right. Because the consumer AND "Onlive" aren't paying ISP's for their bandwidth.
totally

Oh wait, they are.
Its irrelevant if they're paying ISPs or not because of the disproportionate amount of bandwidth to be used. This was the excuse for imposing caps. If ISPs decided to market additional bandwidth to an enterprise like this it would undercut their argument about a bandwidth crunch.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22119859 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:41:13 EDT Re: Business plan neglects the broadband ISPs http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22119793 said by ThrowDemsOut:

This is a really stupid business plan in that it transfers the heavy lifting(all that extra bandwidth consumed) to the broadband ISPs without any consideration of added costs on their part.

And any people playing games on this service will quickly hit the broadband caps that are becoming ever more prevalent.
You're totally right. Because the consumer AND "Onlive" aren't paying ISP's for their bandwidth.
totally

Oh wait, they are.
--
"What makes us omniscient? Have we a record of omniscience? ...If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we'd better reexamine our reasoning."
-United States Secretary of Defense (1961-1968) Robert S. McNamara]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22119793 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:31:06 EDT Business plan neglects the broadband ISPs http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Business-plan-neglects-the-broadband-ISPs-22119714
And any people playing games on this service will quickly hit the broadband caps that are becoming ever more prevalent.
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I just don't see how possible it is.I agree. Everyone was complaining about controller lag in KillZone 2, which IMO, was extremely mild. I'd imagine something like this would introduce the potential for major controller lag unless you had a very low latency connection and the server was next door.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22119594 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:55:36 EDT Re: Doesn't really sound possible http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22119585 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22119585 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:53:50 EDT Doesn't really sound possible http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22119549 --
My domain - Nightfall.net]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Doesnt-really-sound-possible-22119549 Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:47:37 EDT