dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc
uniqs
43

funchords
Hello
MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA

funchords to JohnInSJ

MVM

to JohnInSJ

Re: Bandwidth Limits/Congestion Management - All discussion here

said by JohnInSJ:

then Comcast's - doesn't point out in big bold letters that your speed is limited if you happen to be watching HDTV...
I think I need a source for this one.
funchords

funchords to JohnInSJ

MVM

to JohnInSJ
said by JohnInSJ:

Verizon says no caps, *EVER*, on FiOS.
I need a source for this one, too. What I've heard from Verizon has always been couched in the "for now" and "no plans" present. They've always and intentionally left the future unclear.

JohnInSJ
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

JohnInSJ to funchords

Premium Member

to funchords
Uverse source - DSLR

»AT&T Makes New 18Mbps U-Verse Tier Official
JohnInSJ

JohnInSJ to funchords

Premium Member

to funchords
Ok, maybe that is too strong.

This is what I read

»/faq/13323

As usual... no caps, until they decide to add them via their "we can change the AUP"

funchords
Hello
MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA

funchords to JohnInSJ

MVM

to JohnInSJ
Okay, I misinterpreted what you said, and you said it correctly. This was my error.

(I thought you were saying that Comcast was quietly limited when subscribers were watching HD ... my misread.)

IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC

IPPlanMan to funchords

Member

to funchords
That's still one better than having no clear indication from Comcast that the cap will ever be raised....

Resolutions on cameras and thus the size of the photo files/movies are constantly increasing... That's just one thing that's going to make users more likely to hit the cap.

This is aside from the newly available channels of HD content: iTunes/Netflix Streaming, etc.

Like it or not... the solution is metered billing, just like any other utility that delivers a quantifiable service: Power, Water, Gas.

If you're a usage hog, you pay for what you use. And the provider is able to collect based on that usage and invest in itself so that it can provide an adequate level of service to all.

Comcast, as a de facto monopoly in the cable space, has no interest in investing in itself to support this kind of use the way that the market wants it to. Instead of having a model that would derive revenue from so called "excessive use" or even higher level usage levels through alternative media sources (iTunes/Apple TV, Netflix Streaming, etc), they'd rather use the 250 GB cap to prevent and squash those alternative media sources from taking a foothold and threatening their Cable TV business.

You don't see Verizon doing this with DSL.
You don't see Verizon doing this with Fios.

Comcast is using the Cap to protect their cable division from competition.

Those higher speed Docsis 3.0 tiers are still capped! That's ridiculous, and it shows that that Docsis 3.0 isn't changing a damn thing.

Getting these Docsis 3.0 tiers is like buying a Ferrari with a 1 gallon gas tank. It's incredibly expensive too... and are you really going to notice the "speed" over 250GB of usage? I, for one, highly doubt it. You'll just get to your Cap, the same as everyone else.

Yes, it really is that simple. FiOs can't make it here to DC soon enough, and it's music to my ears that the system is being built right now.

JohnInSJ
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

1 recommendation

JohnInSJ

Premium Member

said by IPPlanMan:

Comcast, as a de facto monopoly in the cable space, has no interest in investing in itself to support this kind of use the way that the market wants it to.
You keep making this claim - but there's nothing to support it. Download 500GB of linux ISOs. Be a primary torrent seed for every linux distro and serve out several TB of ISOs. You'll negatively impact the node just the same as you would for any other use, and get flagged just the same. Heck, back up several TB of disk to the internet 24/7.

Comcast could give a rat's behind what you use the pipe for, so long as you're not blowing the node.

As has been pointed out before DSL and FiOS don't have that particular congestion issue. They'll run into upstream issues and the caps will come there just as soon as everyone hops on and starts blowing their cost models out of the water too.

Yes, it's really that simple.

IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC

3 edits

IPPlanMan

Member

said by JohnInSJ:
said by IPPlanMan:

Comcast, as a de facto monopoly in the cable space, has no interest in investing in itself to support this kind of use the way that the market wants it to.
You keep making this claim - but there's nothing to support it.
I can absolutely provide support for this:

1) The Slingbox iPhone application has just been submitted to the Apple iTunes app store, and when it is released, expect a huge jump in upstreaming traffic. (which counts towards the cap by the way.)
2) Netflix Streaming and Apple TV/iTunes downloads are extremely popular.
3) Need I also mention Hulu?
4) What about video conferencing?
5) What about Remote Access like Go to My PC, etc.?

Comcast is unwilling to provide market level support for market channels such as these that do not enable it to recoup actual revenue, and it's because they charge a flat rate. I've mentioned these, and more are popping up all the time.

Apparently, Comcast can only be "profitable" if you use less than 250 GB per month of bandwidth.

Of course, this stupid cap doesn't seem to be keeping Comcast from bumping the download speeds up over 20MB up to 50MB.... How utterly pointless that is given the cap.
And since they're selling you a speed that is up to 20+ or 50MB, they honestly don't care if it actually reaches that or not. They only care that you don't use it more than 250GB per cycle. Figure that one out...

Metered billing... that's the answer that Comcast doesn't want to hear.

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium Member
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

DarkLogix

Premium Member

Its real simple
there is a management infastructure that likely has some High up exec that sees that people are being cut off for high usage and that the FL attorney gen is pressing charges

so he says to him self ok if we say a number for how much they can use then we might not have to pay the FL attorney gen

next he says well my harddrive is 250GB so I don't think people will use more than that in a month

then he tells all to put in this cap and ticks off people

I think this is what happened

IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC

1 edit

IPPlanMan

Member

said by DarkLogix:

Its real simple
...
Sounds entirely possible to me...

And we all know that hard drives haven't grown at all in size or come down in cost in the last 6 months...

Think that will ever happen with Comcast? I doubt it...

Every day that goes by, 250 GB gets you less and less of the internet...

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium Member
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

DarkLogix

Premium Member

Ya you can buy a 2tb drive for like $300 now
but many new computers are still sold with 80 and 160 gb drives
so some exec likely thinks he has a big 250gb drive and thinks thats plenty

as for me just pay for a busi account with statics and your set

joetaxpayer
I'M Here Till Thursday
join:2001-09-07
Sudbury, MA
552.8 23.8

joetaxpayer

Member

said by DarkLogix:

Ya you can buy a 2tb drive for like $300 now.
I've seen 1.5TB seagate drives for $119. I'd think new PCs are shipping with 1TB drives. Can you even buy a 250GB any more? What do they cost? $15?

sturmvogel6
Obama '08
join:2008-02-07
Houston, TX

sturmvogel6

Member

said by joetaxpayer:
said by DarkLogix:

Ya you can buy a 2tb drive for like $300 now.
I've seen 1.5TB seagate drives for $119. I'd think new PCs are shipping with 1TB drives. Can you even buy a 250GB any more? What do they cost? $15?
Using 1.5 TB drives ? Hmmm, how many pictures and emails could that store ? What an "abuse", everyone knows that the "median" drive capacity is 40 GB, right ?

/sarcasm (just trying to be Comcastic)

EG
The wings of love
Premium Member
join:2006-11-18
Union, NJ

1 recommendation

EG

Premium Member

I don't think that the capacity of one's HD is really a factor here.. ?
Expand your moderator at work

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium Member
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

DarkLogix to joetaxpayer

Premium Member

to joetaxpayer

Re: Bandwidth Limits/Congestion Management - All discussion here

said by joetaxpayer:

said by DarkLogix:

Ya you can buy a 2tb drive for like $300 now.
I've seen 1.5TB seagate drives for $119. I'd think new PCs are shipping with 1TB drives. Can you even buy a 250GB any more? What do they cost? $15?
at work we just bought a brand new computer with a 160gb drive (and added a 2nd drive for cloning)(uesr gets alot of dead drives)
it was also available with 80, 250, 320, 500
and laptops tend to still have smaller drives

sure most of us when we build a computer would but a 1.5 or a 2 TB but at a business we spend more for server storage not end-user storage (because more data thats on the server in raid and backed up daily the less that can be lost)

I don't think a 40gb can be bought anymore bust as for 250gb
»www.newegg.com/Product/P ··· hInDesc=
DarkLogix

DarkLogix to EG

Premium Member

to EG
said by EG:

I don't think that the capacity of one's HD is really a factor here.. ?
ya but uper managment types don't think like normal people
Expand your moderator at work

btfgw
@comcast.net

2 recommendations

btfgw to DarkLogix

Anon

to DarkLogix

Re: Bandwidth Limits/Congestion Management - All discussion here

said by DarkLogix:

ya but uper managment types don't think like normal people
Neither do many of the posters in this thread, for that matter.

sturmvogel6
Obama '08
join:2008-02-07
Houston, TX

sturmvogel6

Member

said by btfgw :
said by DarkLogix:

ya but uper managment types don't think like normal people
Neither do many of the posters in this thread, for that matter.
Truth in advertising. Trying to use what we have purchased. Asking about the usage meter 3 months after the metered model went into effect.

Imagine the horror.

joetaxpayer
I'M Here Till Thursday
join:2001-09-07
Sudbury, MA
552.8 23.8

joetaxpayer to EG

Member

to EG
said by EG:

I don't think that the capacity of one's HD is really a factor here.. ?
It may not, in reality, but perception is a lot.

I sit (a few years back) with my 120GB drive, and if I hear of a 100GB cap don't I think, "wow, I can download enough to fill the drive nearly every month. Anyone who demands more is either a pirate or streaming porn 24/7."

Now, with a couple TB drives, and legal streaming (I think we decided 5GB/2hr movie, no?) the 250GB seems not so large.
I happened to not be a NetFlix subscriber, but with TiVo in a few rooms, I could be one day.

I offer this just to illustrate how the drive can impact one's thinking, right or wrong.

JohnInSJ
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

1 recommendation

JohnInSJ

Premium Member

said by joetaxpayer:

legal streaming (I think we decided 5GB/2hr movie, no?)
No.
HD stream is 1.5GB/hour (which is still a shade high, I believe, but could be possible for 1080p h.264 mpeg... 720p would run 1gb/hour. SD is .33 GB/hour)

So if all you do is stream legal video all day, you get
5.5 hours/day HD/1080p (1.5GB/hour)
8.33 hours/day HD/720p (1GB/hour)
25.25 hours/day (LOL!) SD (.33GB/hour)
Before you hit your 250GB cap.

Of course, you'll also be imaging your 3TB of hard drives to free cloud backup, and your 7 housemates will be streaming video, spending $600/mo on itunes, seeding every linux distro on bittorrent, and whatever else you can think of, so your actual use will be about 10-20X the cap
Expand your moderator at work

joetaxpayer
I'M Here Till Thursday
join:2001-09-07
Sudbury, MA
552.8 23.8

joetaxpayer to JohnInSJ

Member

to JohnInSJ

Re: Bandwidth Limits/Congestion Management - All discussion here

said by JohnInSJ:

HD stream is 1.5GB/hour
I'll take your word on that. Seems low to me as TiVo recordings seem to run 5GB/hr and I thought that was already subject to some kind of compression.
Given your numbers, 133 hrs = 200GB. Is it so beyond believing that a family who just signs up for NetFlix (during the summer when nothing else is on) starts averaging 4hrs a day, between the parents and their 2.5 kids? Kids do crazy things (remember "Go Ape" the Planet of the Apes marathon, all 5 movies in one day?) My example is contrived a bit, but still in the range of a normal possibility.

JohnInSJ
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

1 recommendation

JohnInSJ

Premium Member

Tivo records mpg2, or likely at a higher quality then you can stream from Netflix. Normal "HD" streamed is h.264 mpeg (mpeg4) which (as we posted elsewhere above) runs anywhere from 1 to 1.5GB/hour for 720p or 1080p. This is the "HD" video you stream from Netflix (after all, they pay for bandwidth too), or get from iTunes.

OTA Broadcast HD (as a counter-point) is anywhere from 5-8GB/hour (if you record the ts yourself.)

We've beaten this horse so many ways its not even funny. Sure, you can come up with ways a family of 4 does nothing but watch streaming netflix all day, each on their own PC (wow, sign me up for that family, sounds GREAT!)

They could do it, but they'd run out of HD content in 2.5 months, if they watched every last DOG on netflix.

Just do it.

IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC

IPPlanMan to joetaxpayer

Member

to joetaxpayer
I think you've made a great point....

Funny how all of these arguments come down to assuming that no one does anything else with their connection but stream HD...

I guess regular downloading is not considered part of residential use....
I guess online backups are not considered residential use....
IPPlanMan

1 recommendation

IPPlanMan to JohnInSJ

Member

to JohnInSJ
I'll say it again and again.... because I still don't think it's getting through.

Every day that goes by, 250 GB gets you less and less of the internet.... File sizes are constantly increasing as quality goes up for the content itself.

In fact, given the expansion of the internet's content, the dollar-value proposition of 250GB capped usage becomes worse and worse every day....

That, my friend, is an inarguable fact.

JohnInSJ
Premium Member
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

1 recommendation

JohnInSJ

Premium Member

quote:
I'll say it again and again
No argument there!

A full and balanced life might include more then the internet

250GB is the cap today. No doubt the cap will go up. Heck, no doubt you can use more then 250GB today, and still might be just fine.

No one is suggesting that 250GB is going to be a reasonable cap in 5 years. I'm not, anyway. Higher speeds, more competition, upgrades to the network, and yes, broad demand from more then 1% of the user base will indeed drive the caps higher.

But it's not today. Today, the great massive bulk of users won't come near it, so its a non-issue for them and comcast.

That, my friend, is an inarguable fact.

And we do another lap around the dead horse.