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JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

1 recommendation

reply to IPPlanMan

Re: Bandwidth Limits/Congestion Management - All discussion here

said by IPPlanMan:

Comcast, as a de facto monopoly in the cable space, has no interest in investing in itself to support this kind of use the way that the market wants it to.
You keep making this claim - but there's nothing to support it. Download 500GB of linux ISOs. Be a primary torrent seed for every linux distro and serve out several TB of ISOs. You'll negatively impact the node just the same as you would for any other use, and get flagged just the same. Heck, back up several TB of disk to the internet 24/7.

Comcast could give a rat's behind what you use the pipe for, so long as you're not blowing the node.

As has been pointed out before DSL and FiOS don't have that particular congestion issue. They'll run into upstream issues and the caps will come there just as soon as everyone hops on and starts blowing their cost models out of the water too.

Yes, it's really that simple.


IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman

join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC
kudos:1

3 edits

said by JohnInSJ:

said by IPPlanMan:

Comcast, as a de facto monopoly in the cable space, has no interest in investing in itself to support this kind of use the way that the market wants it to.
You keep making this claim - but there's nothing to support it.
I can absolutely provide support for this:

1) The Slingbox iPhone application has just been submitted to the Apple iTunes app store, and when it is released, expect a huge jump in upstreaming traffic. (which counts towards the cap by the way.)
2) Netflix Streaming and Apple TV/iTunes downloads are extremely popular.
3) Need I also mention Hulu?
4) What about video conferencing?
5) What about Remote Access like Go to My PC, etc.?

Comcast is unwilling to provide market level support for market channels such as these that do not enable it to recoup actual revenue, and it's because they charge a flat rate. I've mentioned these, and more are popping up all the time.

Apparently, Comcast can only be "profitable" if you use less than 250 GB per month of bandwidth.

Of course, this stupid cap doesn't seem to be keeping Comcast from bumping the download speeds up over 20MB up to 50MB.... How utterly pointless that is given the cap.
And since they're selling you a speed that is up to 20+ or 50MB, they honestly don't care if it actually reaches that or not. They only care that you don't use it more than 250GB per cycle. Figure that one out...

Metered billing... that's the answer that Comcast doesn't want to hear.
--
"We're going to start at one end of (Fallujah), and we're not going to stop until we get to the other. If there's anybody left when that happens, we're going to turn around and we're going to go back and finish it."
Lt. Col. Pete Newell: 1st Inf. US Army


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3

Its real simple
there is a management infastructure that likely has some High up exec that sees that people are being cut off for high usage and that the FL attorney gen is pressing charges

so he says to him self ok if we say a number for how much they can use then we might not have to pay the FL attorney gen

next he says well my harddrive is 250GB so I don't think people will use more than that in a month

then he tells all to put in this cap and ticks off people

I think this is what happened



IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman

join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC
kudos:1

1 edit

said by DarkLogix:

Its real simple
...
Sounds entirely possible to me...

And we all know that hard drives haven't grown at all in size or come down in cost in the last 6 months...

Think that will ever happen with Comcast? I doubt it...

Every day that goes by, 250 GB gets you less and less of the internet...
--
"We're going to start at one end of (Fallujah), and we're not going to stop until we get to the other. If there's anybody left when that happens, we're going to turn around and we're going to go back and finish it."
Lt. Col. Pete Newell: 1st Inf. US Army


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3

Ya you can buy a 2tb drive for like $300 now
but many new computers are still sold with 80 and 160 gb drives
so some exec likely thinks he has a big 250gb drive and thinks thats plenty

as for me just pay for a busi account with statics and your set



joetaxpayer
I'M Here Till Thursday

join:2001-09-07
Sudbury, MA

said by DarkLogix:

Ya you can buy a 2tb drive for like $300 now.
I've seen 1.5TB seagate drives for $119. I'd think new PCs are shipping with 1TB drives. Can you even buy a 250GB any more? What do they cost? $15?


sturmvogel
Obama '08

join:2008-02-07
Houston, TX

said by joetaxpayer:

said by DarkLogix:

Ya you can buy a 2tb drive for like $300 now.
I've seen 1.5TB seagate drives for $119. I'd think new PCs are shipping with 1TB drives. Can you even buy a 250GB any more? What do they cost? $15?
Using 1.5 TB drives ? Hmmm, how many pictures and emails could that store ? What an "abuse", everyone knows that the "median" drive capacity is 40 GB, right ?

/sarcasm (just trying to be Comcastic)
--
Obama '08. Will help resolve the terrible broadband issues we have that put us so far behind other countries.


EG
The wings of love
Premium
join:2006-11-18
Union, NJ
kudos:9

1 recommendation

I don't think that the capacity of one's HD is really a factor here.. ?

Expand your moderator at work


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to joetaxpayer

Re: Bandwidth Limits/Congestion Management - All discussion here

said by joetaxpayer:

said by DarkLogix:

Ya you can buy a 2tb drive for like $300 now.
I've seen 1.5TB seagate drives for $119. I'd think new PCs are shipping with 1TB drives. Can you even buy a 250GB any more? What do they cost? $15?
at work we just bought a brand new computer with a 160gb drive (and added a 2nd drive for cloning)(uesr gets alot of dead drives)
it was also available with 80, 250, 320, 500
and laptops tend to still have smaller drives

sure most of us when we build a computer would but a 1.5 or a 2 TB but at a business we spend more for server storage not end-user storage (because more data thats on the server in raid and backed up daily the less that can be lost)

I don't think a 40gb can be bought anymore bust as for 250gb
»www.newegg.com/Product/ProductLi···hInDesc=


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to EG

said by EG:

I don't think that the capacity of one's HD is really a factor here.. ?
ya but uper managment types don't think like normal people
Expand your moderator at work


btfgw

@comcast.net

2 recommendations

reply to DarkLogix

Re: Bandwidth Limits/Congestion Management - All discussion here

said by DarkLogix:

ya but uper managment types don't think like normal people
Neither do many of the posters in this thread, for that matter.


sturmvogel
Obama '08

join:2008-02-07
Houston, TX

said by btfgw :

said by DarkLogix:

ya but uper managment types don't think like normal people
Neither do many of the posters in this thread, for that matter.
Truth in advertising. Trying to use what we have purchased. Asking about the usage meter 3 months after the metered model went into effect.

Imagine the horror.
--
Obama '08. Will help resolve the terrible broadband issues we have that put us so far behind other countries.


joetaxpayer
I'M Here Till Thursday

join:2001-09-07
Sudbury, MA
reply to EG

said by EG:

I don't think that the capacity of one's HD is really a factor here.. ?
It may not, in reality, but perception is a lot.

I sit (a few years back) with my 120GB drive, and if I hear of a 100GB cap don't I think, "wow, I can download enough to fill the drive nearly every month. Anyone who demands more is either a pirate or streaming porn 24/7."

Now, with a couple TB drives, and legal streaming (I think we decided 5GB/2hr movie, no?) the 250GB seems not so large.
I happened to not be a NetFlix subscriber, but with TiVo in a few rooms, I could be one day.

I offer this just to illustrate how the drive can impact one's thinking, right or wrong.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

1 recommendation

said by joetaxpayer:

legal streaming (I think we decided 5GB/2hr movie, no?)
No.
HD stream is 1.5GB/hour (which is still a shade high, I believe, but could be possible for 1080p h.264 mpeg... 720p would run 1gb/hour. SD is .33 GB/hour)

So if all you do is stream legal video all day, you get
5.5 hours/day HD/1080p (1.5GB/hour)
8.33 hours/day HD/720p (1GB/hour)
25.25 hours/day (LOL!) SD (.33GB/hour)
Before you hit your 250GB cap.

Of course, you'll also be imaging your 3TB of hard drives to free cloud backup, and your 7 housemates will be streaming video, spending $600/mo on itunes, seeding every linux distro on bittorrent, and whatever else you can think of, so your actual use will be about 10-20X the cap
Expand your moderator at work


joetaxpayer
I'M Here Till Thursday

join:2001-09-07
Sudbury, MA
reply to JohnInSJ

Re: Bandwidth Limits/Congestion Management - All discussion here

said by JohnInSJ:

HD stream is 1.5GB/hour
I'll take your word on that. Seems low to me as TiVo recordings seem to run 5GB/hr and I thought that was already subject to some kind of compression.
Given your numbers, 133 hrs = 200GB. Is it so beyond believing that a family who just signs up for NetFlix (during the summer when nothing else is on) starts averaging 4hrs a day, between the parents and their 2.5 kids? Kids do crazy things (remember "Go Ape" the Planet of the Apes marathon, all 5 movies in one day?) My example is contrived a bit, but still in the range of a normal possibility.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

1 recommendation

Tivo records mpg2, or likely at a higher quality then you can stream from Netflix. Normal "HD" streamed is h.264 mpeg (mpeg4) which (as we posted elsewhere above) runs anywhere from 1 to 1.5GB/hour for 720p or 1080p. This is the "HD" video you stream from Netflix (after all, they pay for bandwidth too), or get from iTunes.

OTA Broadcast HD (as a counter-point) is anywhere from 5-8GB/hour (if you record the ts yourself.)

We've beaten this horse so many ways its not even funny. Sure, you can come up with ways a family of 4 does nothing but watch streaming netflix all day, each on their own PC (wow, sign me up for that family, sounds GREAT!)

They could do it, but they'd run out of HD content in 2.5 months, if they watched every last DOG on netflix.

Just do it.



IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman

join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC
kudos:1
reply to joetaxpayer

I think you've made a great point....

Funny how all of these arguments come down to assuming that no one does anything else with their connection but stream HD...

I guess regular downloading is not considered part of residential use....
I guess online backups are not considered residential use....
--
"We're going to start at one end of (Fallujah), and we're not going to stop until we get to the other. If there's anybody left when that happens, we're going to turn around and we're going to go back and finish it."
Lt. Col. Pete Newell: 1st Inf. US Army



IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman

join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to JohnInSJ

I'll say it again and again.... because I still don't think it's getting through.

Every day that goes by, 250 GB gets you less and less of the internet.... File sizes are constantly increasing as quality goes up for the content itself.

In fact, given the expansion of the internet's content, the dollar-value proposition of 250GB capped usage becomes worse and worse every day....

That, my friend, is an inarguable fact.
--
"We're going to start at one end of (Fallujah), and we're not going to stop until we get to the other. If there's anybody left when that happens, we're going to turn around and we're going to go back and finish it."
Lt. Col. Pete Newell: 1st Inf. US Army



JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

1 recommendation

quote:
I'll say it again and again
No argument there!

A full and balanced life might include more then the internet

250GB is the cap today. No doubt the cap will go up. Heck, no doubt you can use more then 250GB today, and still might be just fine.

No one is suggesting that 250GB is going to be a reasonable cap in 5 years. I'm not, anyway. Higher speeds, more competition, upgrades to the network, and yes, broad demand from more then 1% of the user base will indeed drive the caps higher.

But it's not today. Today, the great massive bulk of users won't come near it, so its a non-issue for them and comcast.

That, my friend, is an inarguable fact.

And we do another lap around the dead horse.


joetaxpayer
I'M Here Till Thursday

join:2001-09-07
Sudbury, MA
reply to IPPlanMan

said by IPPlanMan:

I think you've made a great point....

Funny how all of these arguments come down to assuming that no one does anything else with their connection but stream HD...

I guess regular downloading is not considered part of residential use....
I guess online backups are not considered residential use....
Thanks, glad you got it.
John didn't care too much for my one example, I understand that. At some point IPTV will be real, and maybe the 4 hours a day for 4 people (total, not each) won't seem like I'm constructing some pathetic family. The MRS and I average 15 hrs a week, and half of those are while on a treadmill. I'm not glued to the set. either way, I am sure Comcast will have detailed statistics about how the median numbers are creeping up, and they'll have to make some tough decisions.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

quote:
make some tough decisions.
Not tough at all to move the cap up. It's just a number representing some point where 99% of the users comfortably are under it.

Like you said, it just goes up as overall demand does.

They have traffic shaping (whatever they call it, de-prioritized scheduling?) already in place to address the local neighborhood congestion. The goal likely is always to skim off the 1% who use way more then the 99%, no matter what "way more" means.


IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman

join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC
kudos:1

1 edit

said by JohnInSJ:

Not tough at all to move the cap up. It's just a number representing some point where 99% of the users comfortably are under it.

Like you said, it just goes up as overall demand does.

I disagree...

The cap has officially been at 250GB since October 1st of last year...

And before it was official, I'm sure that it was somewhere around that as well... for how many years going on?

I've seen the US Government move faster than this...
--
"We're going to start at one end of (Fallujah), and we're not going to stop until we get to the other. If there's anybody left when that happens, we're going to turn around and we're going to go back and finish it."
Lt. Col. Pete Newell: 1st Inf. US Army


IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman

join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC
kudos:1
reply to sturmvogel

Couldn't agree more....



espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Vitelity VOIP

1 recommendation

reply to IPPlanMan

said by IPPlanMan:

The cap has officially been at 250GB since October 1st of last year...

And before it was official, I'm sure that it was somewhere around that as well... for how many years going on?
You might have missed it, but a couple pages back sortofageek See Profile posted a FAQ link that includes post links to 2003 where people reported getting "the letter" (the precursor to "the call") for traffic volumes as low as 80GB/mo.

»Comcast High Speed Internet FAQ »Does Comcast have bandwidth use limits?

Clearly the situation has changed over the years.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to IPPlanMan

quote:
The cap has officially been at 250GB since October 1st of last year...
Wow... nearly 6 months... it will NEVER change!

Check back in a year. It will be higher. Perhaps, really really, you are on the high end of usage among all Comcast customers? Naw, it can't be you.