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Sparrow
Crystal Sky
Premium
join:2002-12-03
Sachakhand
| [Serious] UK developers in the EU + In October 2008, I moved from New York to Varna, Bulgaria. I absolutely love it here, but have not learned the language at all since it is always easy to find someone who speaks at least enough English to live easily day-to-day.
There are very few Americans here, but quite a good size group from the UK. Most come here to retire or speculate in what "was" a great market a few years back. Now, of course, the RE crash is beginning its bottoming out here.
I am slowly making the acquaintance of other UK nationals through a couple who opened a local bistro here, but whose primary work is development and RE sales.
Being straightforward is one of my liabilities in life, and I would sincerely appreciate some input and general opinions about the average British attitude toward being upfront and transparent. I have no intention of being rude or derogatory, and the group whom I have met so far I have found to be much more friendly than New Yorkers, pleasant, and open-minded.
As a purely general and theoretical question, can I assume most Brits ARE as transparent and upfront (as I am seeing them now), and refrain from BS in business dealings? I found it extremely refreshing to meet a group of people at the bistro who certainly do not seem to stand on ceremony, which is the way I like my friends and acquaintances to be.
I would also appreciate any tips or pointers concerning "typical Yank behavior" that may put the British off.
Any helpful input or suggestions will be much appreciated.
Thanks so much!
Leah
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"Be simple, be earnest and spread that simplicity throughout everything you do." | |
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nemo1966
join:2005-11-15
England | Re: [Serious] UK developers in the EU + Say, Please and Thank You... oh and don't shoot at them  and you'll be fine.
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Sparrow
Crystal Sky
Premium
join:2002-12-03
Sachakhand
| Re: [Serious] UK developers in the EU + Thanks Nemo! I think I can handle that to the satisfaction of everyone concerned!! 
Ironically, the reason I ask is because we were discussing the habits of Bulgarians in general at the bistro, and we agreed that we are dumbfounded by some of the cultural differences.
It never hurts to ask just to check one's own behaviour from time to time, as what may be completely appropriate and polite to an American, may turn another on their heels.
Ah, see! There is a difference - us New Yorkers are used to being shot at! 
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"Be simple, be earnest and spread that simplicity throughout everything you do." | |
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jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-03
Reston, VA
| Leah,
I think it might likely be dependent on just what sort of ex-pats you're encountering in Bulgaria. Here, in Reston, VA, (and especially in my own neighborhood), they're all quite friendly and polite, possibly not quite so gregarious as the natives. I think many of 'ours' are people who first came to the US on business, liked what they saw and with whom they dealt and decided to resettle here. Generally speaking, it's cheaper to live in the US than in the UK; I suspect the same is true of Bulgaria (like Spain?). I think many of them like the fact that Government is far less intrusive on their lives in the US (or Bulgaria) than in the UK, especially these days. They are a bit skittish about the level of violence in American society, however. (I suspect that's why they tend to settle in the ex-urban areas here rather than in the central cities or deep countryside.)
I find it very hard (either here in the US or when I'm in the UK) to tell you specifically what they may find distasteful. They're perfectly willing to tell you what they like (or dislike) about America, but they're quite reticent on being obvious about how they react to you as an individual.
They don't particularly care for American super-patriots, especially those who believe that America has some sort of 'manifest destiny' to spread 'freedom and democracy' throughout the world. After all, the Brits have been there, done that -- and they know how it eventually ends. (Ever notice how few countries have actually adopted the American concept of democracy?) Apparently, the American super-patriot must be fairly common abroad. I've often found a presumption that I'm one of them, which it takes some time and experience to disprove.
Similarly, they don't particularly care for the super-religious American stereotype, especially those that feel they've a mission to evangelize the rest of the world to their chosen variety of Christian fundamentalism.
The Brits may be just as loyal to the UK and just as religious as any American, but they tend to keep it to themselves.
Actually, I think dave may be the person you really need to hear from on this subject.
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Regards,
Joseph V. Morris | |
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Sparrow
Crystal Sky
Premium
join:2002-12-03
Sachakhand
| Re: [Serious] UK developers in the EU + Hello Joseph,
Thank you for chipping in.
Most of the people whom I've encountered so far are in our age group, self-admittedly middle-class, comfortable, obviously decently educated, properly and pleasantly reserved, but also, as mentioned above, much friendlier than New Yorkers. I felt completely at home with the group, (albeit I feel at home with any group).
There was also one North Carolinian in the group and I had to laugh at myself for not recognizing his accent.
Most came here initially on visits/vacations prior to Bulgaria joining the EU because of the low cost and beautiful beaches (Varna is a seaport city). Looking back five years, real estate here, at that time, was what any of us would consider a steal. People who were looking for vacation homes, retirement or speculators came in droves. Bulgaria, still in bandages from the break of 1991, sold at what we would consider rock-bottom prices, and it caught on.
After their ascension to the EU two years ago, and the lev (Bulgarian currency) was pegged to the euro, prices are what even I consider abnormal for the average income of a Bulgarian. The average income here is approximately 300 euros a month, with utilities on par with what I paid in NY. In some cases, food prices are higher here than in NY as well. Chicken cutlets that I used to purchase for $1.99 on sale in NY, cost at least three times that here. Cotton skirts that I could pick up for $10 in NY cost 50 euros here!
Anyway, you know I am not a flag-waving Yankie under any circumstance, and I can't say I miss a single thing (except my cats and plants that had to stay behind) from home.
As with any group, religion and politics are always hot-topics and should naturally be avoided. I agree that religion should be a private affair as well and not being a staunch patriot, I guess I am good on that ground.
Except for those under 30 and especially my high school students, I have to say I did not expect Bulgarians to be as closed-minded and cold as I am experiencing. The fallout from the old regime will not clear the air for at least the next 10 to 20 years. There is virtually no law enforcement here, bribes are considered part and parcel of any transaction that requires a stamp of approval, contracts of any sort are virtually worthless, and taking anyone to court is almost a joke, because the court system is corrupt as well.
However, on the other side of the coin, if one has a place in a village not too far away from the centers and has a comfortable income, one can live quite well here without having the fear of someone always looking over your shoulder as is the case in the US and the UK. Laws are quite lax here and with a small bribe, heads turn in the other direction.
Immigration is at the whim of the local authorities, and I can thankfully report that we were in and out with a 10.70 leva fee (about 5.50 euros) and given carte blanche to finish up the details at our leisure. I did not need to extend my visa as anticipated, because we are married for more than two years already. I was extraordinarily lucky as I have heard horror stories. The biggest expense we will incur is for translation of our documents.
Because I am currently tutoring Bulgarian students, I am becoming more aware of the corruption in the school system as well. It would make your head spin. The kids are my best and most reliable source of information.
One thing I certainly have in common with the British ex-pats is that we can not fathom the stubbornness of the average Bulgarian. My case was the rule, not the exception. My experiences are considered "normal" here, and that is scary, you must admit.
By the way, if you know of anyone looking for a great price on a custom-built villa about 40 kilometers out of Varna, let me know.
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"Be simple, be earnest and spread that simplicity throughout everything you do." | |
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jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-03
Reston, VA
| Re: [Serious] UK developers in the EU + Okay, okay,
Most 'democracies' have some form of parliamentary system rather than our tri-partite national government of three independent and technically co-equal branches (executive, legislative, and judicial), each with specified zones of authority. Members of the US Judiciary are nominated by the Executive but most be confirmed by the Senate, members of the House and Senate normally require election by the electorate with a majority (which brings us to the increasingly common run-off elections, followed by a Court battle as to which votes are legitimate), and normally the President is elected by the Electoral College which most commonly reflects the candidate with a plurality in each State (but this is completely left to the discretion of the individual States, a right that Florida threatened to exercise in 2000).
We also have a federal system of national, State, and local government with each level having different amounts of autonomy. (And the degree of autonomy between State and local government varies from State to State in the US.)
Technically, only the people are sovereign here.
On the other hand, many Americans do not understand the distinction between Head of State and Head of Government; it's the same person here.
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Regards,
Joseph V. Morris | |
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jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-03
Reston, VA | Re: [Serious] UK developers in the EU + Oh, I keep forgetting . . . they don't teach you guys about the American Revolution, do they?
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Regards,
Joseph V. Morris | |
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wonko3fc
Verbum sat sapienti
join:2001-06-02
UK
 ·BT Broadband
| Re: [Serious] UK developers in the EU + No point mucker, that was an internal dispute between North and Southern Fried Chicken if memory serves - did you mean the 'scuffle' for Independence by chance?That you would have got anyway as at the time, the US was considered the least important of our far reaching empire and had you waited a few more years we'd have given it to ya! Could have saved a few lives - still, it's the 'merkin way | |
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jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-03
Reston, VA | Re: [Serious] UK developers in the EU + So, . . . you were planning on surrendering all along?
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Regards,
Joseph V. Morris | |
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jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-03
Reston, VA
| Re: [Serious] UK developers in the EU + Now that we've completely trashed Sparrow's thread, I forgot that you guys don't teach game theory either.
Lest we forget, "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game." (But I think you already know that, don't you? )
Now (and with a tip o the hat to the French, of course), the current American paradigm is as follows:
1) Wait until a lot of people have already been killed
2) Intervene when everyone already involved is getting exhausted.
3) Kill a lot more people.
4) Get bored, declare victory, pick up our marbles and go home.
5) Revel in our gory, err, glory, that is.
Got that?
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Regards,
Joseph V. Morris | |
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Sparrow
Crystal Sky
Premium
join:2002-12-03
Sachakhand
| Re: [Serious] UK developers in the EU + said by jvmorris  :Now that we've completely trashed Sparrow's thread, I forgot that you guys don't teach game theory either. Lest we forget, "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game." (But I think you already know that, don't you? ) Now (and with a tip o the hat to the French, of course), the current American paradigm is as follows: 1) Wait until a lot of people have already been killed 2) Intervene when everyone already involved is getting exhausted. 3) Kill a lot more people. 4) Get bored, declare victory, pick up our marbles and go home. 5) Revel in our gory, err, glory, that is. Got that? Dear, dear Joseph, you are incorrigible aren't you? But, I shall graciously tip-toe away and allow your imposition. Found a great apartment today, so nothing is going to ruffle me little feathers.
By the way, you have the policy pinned down succinctly. Bravo.
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"Be simple, be earnest and spread that simplicity throughout everything you do." | |
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jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-03
Reston, VA
| said by wonko3fc :Oh I dunno, I've suddenly lost interest and become fascinated with "Randy JV"!!!??!!?!??!?!?!??!?? So what's that all about?. . . Randy was long ago and (now) far away. Think he was here on BBR/DSLR, but I'm no longer positive about that.
On the other hand, there were some old posters in this very Forum that I'd really like to see start posting again. Unless they're 'lurkers' who now sign in anonymously, I doubt we will see them again (and pardon me if I don't name them).
I owe (both of) these guys a lot, but I don't know how to contact them anymore.
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Regards,
Joseph V. Morris | |
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wonko3fc
Verbum sat sapienti
join:2001-06-02
UK
·BT Broadband
| said by Sparrow :Being straightforward is one of my liabilities in life, and I would sincerely appreciate some input and general opinions about the average British attitude toward being upfront and transparent.
Hello Leah and welcome.
General comments and none directed at you as I'm certain you've learnt this already.
Typical causes for concern of Brits in the form of 'merkins goes like this:
Cut the vol of your voice) by about 98% when talking and DO NOT yell across the room because there is someone you also want to talk to over there - tip try moving closer!
Try not to compare everything with what you have 'back home' diff country, diff culture and rules - suck it up
If you are lost, uncertain or needing assistance whilst traveling, do not stand in the middle of the through fair proclaiming to non existent persons unknown that you don't know what/where/how etc. Do use eyes and ears to ascertain the information or help kiosk/poster/map or, in the event there are other English speakers on the bus, train what ever, try listening to where they may be going and then follow them if appropriate.
Try not to be to defensive of US foreign policy or even domestic one for that matter. Most Europeans (IMHO) tend to secretly think to 'the land of the free' as something of a joke and the more you tell us about it, the funnier it gets - the joke of course being upon you as you've not spotted it yet.
Oddly (although you have probably found this out already) not everyone in the world buys everything on Visa/Amex/Master card and Dollar$ are not universal - although that in turn depends upon where you are.
Chat with your Brit buddies over there and ask them what they find irritating about 'merkins too! I'm certain they will enlighten you, especially if you buy them a few drinkies...
Other than that you should be fine for the most part.Oh, learn and keep in mind what Irony is too! | |
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Sparrow
Crystal Sky
Premium
join:2002-12-03
Sachakhand
| Re: [Serious] UK developers in the EU + Thanks so much wonko3fc , for making my day. Your comments helped a great deal.
1. Cut the vol of your voice by about 98% when talking and DO NOT yell across the room because there is someone you also want to talk to over there - tip try moving closer!
1a. Perfect! For years I have been asked to "speak up" as I happen to be very soft spoken and abhor speaking across large tables, let alone screaming across rooms.
2. Try not to compare everything with what you have 'back home' diff country, diff culture and rules - suck it up
2a. Don't miss a damn thing back in the US, except band-aids that stick for more than 15 minutes, and the ex-pats import their band-aids from the UK as I do from the US.
3. If you are lost, uncertain or needing assistance whilst traveling, do not stand in the middle of the through fair proclaiming to non existent persons unknown that you don't know what/where/how etc. Do use eyes and ears to ascertain the information or help kiosk/poster/map or, in the event there are other English speakers on the bus, train what ever, try listening to where they may be going and then follow them if appropriate.
3a. Real men NEVER get lost - even though I am female, I follow the male rule.
4. Try not to be to defensive of US foreign policy or even domestic one for that matter.
4a. What is there to be defensive of?
5. Most Europeans (IMHO) tend to secretly think to 'the land of the free' as something of a joke and the more you tell us about it, the funnier it gets - the joke of course being upon you as you've not spotted it yet.
5a. It is a joke, and I am not laughing...
6. Oddly (although you have probably found this out already) not everyone in the world buys everything on Visa/Amex/Master card and Dollar$ are not universal - although that in turn depends upon where you are.
6a. Hmm, I had a credit card once - about 30 years ago. The first time I used it was the last (and I shall never forget this). I purchased 3 dresses for $35 each that I certainly did not need, and when the bill came in, I very quickly realized that credit cards could be dangerous to one's pocketbook, and promptly cut the card in two. Never had one since. I am of the mind set that if I can not pay cash, I don't buy it. I have two bank (debit) cards, one American, one Bulgarian, and use them only to withdraw cash from an auto-teller. With the fluctuation of the dollar and the lev pegged to euro, I think in levs and euros. I believe the "almighty dollar" lost its sanctity when the gold standard of $32 an ounce suddenly became history in the early 70's.
7. Chat with your Brit buddies over there and ask them what they find irritating about 'merkins too! I'm certain they will enlighten you, especially if you buy them a few drinkies...
7a. Good. I thrive in an atmosphere of constructive criticism .
8. Other than that you should be fine for the most part. Oh, learn and keep in mind what Irony is too!
8a. Ironically, there is one thing I miss from the US - the BBC comedies that I looked forward to every Friday night on the local public television, and the BBC mystery series.
My husband has a collection of P.G. Wodehouse that I curl up in a chair with to compensate for the above loss. Just finished, "Carry On, Jeeves" and about to begin, "Jeeves and the Feudal Spirit."
♣ [My kind of humor...] ♣ and ♣ [ click me] ♣
Okay, running late here and have an appointment in 45 minutes - 15 minutes away and not dressed yet!!
Ciao!
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"Be simple, be earnest and spread that simplicity throughout everything you do." | |
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Sparrow
Crystal Sky
Premium
join:2002-12-03
Sachakhand
| Re: [Serious] UK developers in the EU + Heavens, nothing condescending at all. JV may be able to shed light on what raises my hackles! Remember Randy, JV?!
I hold to the theory that at birth I was misplaced during the stork delivery routine somewhere between the east and west.
See, you gave me invaluable insight into Wodehouse. Now instead of raising a toast to him and making a fool of myself, I can rather inquire of the chap next to me, his opinion on such-and-such of Wodehouse. Good tip.
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"Be simple, be earnest and spread that simplicity throughout everything you do." | |
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jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-03
Reston, VA
| Hey! How'd you manage to sneak this in without my noticing it?
said by wonko3fc :. . . JV there is nearly home but still can't quite let go sometimes must be the frequent return trips he makes... Still, we have high hopes for him. Maybe you could pass him a few tips Well, it's true that I can walk into Wales from Quarry House, but I've yet to find a place over there with decent public transport to the railheads necessary to get down to London (or even into a decent-sized town). And, since my Better Half doesn't drive, that's a bit of an impediment.
Actually, you probably should be just as happy that I go back to the States occasionally. I do all my serious hell-raising in the US at the moment.
[Ed]
Oh forgot about P.G. Wodehouse that's a tricky one. Very funny indeed yet alas he made a few errors of judgement between 39 & 45 and this has somewhat soured his reputation. As such I think we (brits) are a little uncomfortable with him but we do like his work. Jurys still out on that one...
And Chesterton? (Got a hard-copy compendium of the Father Brown stories last autumn.)
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Regards,
Joseph V. Morris | |
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