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Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
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1 recommendation

A film worth it?

said by Karl :

If true, it begs the question whether the revenues of a film studio are worth disrupting the revenue streams, connectivity, and 911 services for dozens of other companies.
Absolutely not.

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA
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Re: A film worth it?

And is it worth a FBI investigation? IMO, NO.

Let the MPAA/RIAA hire their own chumps.

dcurrey
Premium
join:2004-06-29

Re: A film worth it?

They do. They are called US Government and all its related branches.

FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5
said by hopeflicker:

And is it worth a FBI investigation? IMO, NO.
The studio spent $100 million dollars making this movie. That automatically makes it of interest to the FBI - very high profile and an easy win to track down the leaker.
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Noah Vail
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Lorton, VA
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Re: A film worth it?

If this raid is a direct response to the Wolv-Leak, do you approve of it?
NV

FFH5
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Tavistock NJ
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Re: A film worth it?

said by Noah Vail:

If this raid is a direct response to the Wolv-Leak, do you approve of it?
NV
It wasn't.

But IF it was and the FBI convinced a judge that a search & seizure warrant was justified, I would have no problem with it. Of course, if the FBI exceeded their authority and seized MORE than what was authorized, then damages should be awarded and a reprimand against the FBI agents exceeding their warrant should be pursued internally at the FBI.
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Noah Vail
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·Bright House

Re: A film worth it?

said by FFH5:

But IF it was and the FBI convinced a judge that a search & seizure warrant was justified, I would have no problem with it. Of course, if the FBI exceeded their authority and seized MORE than what was authorized, then damages should be awarded and a reprimand against the FBI agents exceeding their warrant should be pursued internally at the FBI.
That's a pretty good answer.

We're still wargaming here. Continue to assume it's a MPAA related raid.

Next question:
How confident are you that the FBI was careful and prepared enough to make certain (as they could be) to cause as little impact as possible?

NV
--
In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people.
I call it the Crapture.

FFH5
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Tavistock NJ
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Re: A film worth it?

said by Noah Vail:

That's a pretty good answer.

We're still wargaming here. Continue to assume it's a MPAA related raid.

Next question:
How confident are you that the FBI was careful and prepared enough to make certain (as they could be) to cause as little impact as possible?

NV
Not being there and only basing an answer on the purported FBI actions on the CLAIMS of the targeted individual, I have no idea. If & when more info on both actions taken by the FBI and on the reason the raid targeted the site could you answer if the FBI exceeded their warrant.

But, in general, I expect the FBI did only what they were authorized to do and took care to do no more than that.
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Noah Vail
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·Bright House

Re: A film worth it?

said by FFH5:

But, in general, I expect the FBI did only what they were authorized to do and took care to do no more than that.
Authorization = Ethical?

Ohhh. Not good.

We're determining the ethics of having one business suffer a penalty, at the loss of another. I'd think you've been around enough to know that a big enough stink will get all the authorization there is: Whether it's merited or not.

Now then:
We've no need for further endless disclaimers.
We've Authorized the assumption of an MPAA driven raid; remember?
Since it's Authorized, whatever we do is Perfectly OK!

Silly.

said by FFH5:


Not being there and only basing an answer on the purported FBI actions on the CLAIMS of the targeted individual,
I have no idea. If & when more info on both actions taken by the FBI and on the reason the raid targeted the site could you answer if the FBI exceeded their warrant.
So as long as it doesn't exceed warrant limitations, any UNNECESSARY damage done by the FBI is a GOOD THING.

My question was "How confident are you that the FBI was careful and prepared enough to make certain (as they could be) to cause as little impact as possible?

To which you replied: "I have no idea".
If you had confidence in the FBI, you'd probably know about it.
That tells us that you do not have inherent confidence in this agency.
There's nothing in you that presumes that the FBI conducts themselves in an ethical and moral manner.
You also indicate that as long as they operate within some politically driven guidelines, measurable damage to unconnected parties is not worth considering.

And that seems to be OK with you.

Wow.

Remind me again. Who is the government supposed to be serving?
Here's a hint:
It's supposed to be the same,
as who is ultimately supposed to benefit
from the existence of large and powerful corporations.

Nv
--
In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people.
I call it the Crapture.
DufiefData

join:2006-06-13
Gaithersburg, MD
It is absolutely worth it -- this is a theft that could cost an American company tens- to hundreds of millions of dollars. It's a gross theft of intellectual property and creative material and it has to be stopped.

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
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Long Beach, CA
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Re: A film worth it?

said by DufiefData:

It is absolutely worth it -- this is a theft
Hey! look, there's that word again.
Badonkadonk
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·Dish Network

1 edit

Re: A film worth it?

said by hopeflicker:

said by DufiefData:

It is absolutely worth it -- this is a theft
Hey! look, there's that word again.
Yeah, it's a knee jerk reaction by people when they call infringement theft. I suppose theft is much more glamorous sounding and attention getting than infringement.

That being said, theft is a possibility if the person without authorization took the media on which the movie was stored.

Matt3
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Jamestown, NC
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said by hopeflicker:

said by DufiefData:

It is absolutely worth it -- this is a theft
Hey! look, there's that word again.
Yep, there it is again. If you watch this and don't go see it at full price, it's theft. If you watch it and then go see it, eh, if I was a movie studio I wouldn't care.
Badonkadonk
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Reviews:
·Dish Network

Re: A film worth it?

said by Matt3:

said by hopeflicker:

said by DufiefData:

It is absolutely worth it -- this is a theft
Hey! look, there's that word again.
Yep, there it is again. If you watch this and don't go see it at full price, it's theft. If you watch it and then go see it, eh, if I was a movie studio I wouldn't care.
It's not theft according to any legal definition. But, I suppose in DSR-World you can be your own lexicographer. So, proceed with your imaginary definitions . . .

Matt3
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1 recommendation

Re: A film worth it?

said by Badonkadonk:

It's not theft according to any legal definition. But, I suppose in DSR-World you can be your own lexicographer. So, proceed with your imaginary definitions . . .
Of course not. Oh, oops, except for this minor bill passed in 1999:

»www.techlawjournal.com/cong106/c···ault.htm

Note, the title of one of the included bills: S 1257, Digital Theft Deterrence and Copyright Damages Improvement Act.

I'd say that would fall under "any" legal definition. This copyright infringement isn't theft mantra is really old and lame. Every time it comes up, there is a new example dug up that refutes it.
Badonkadonk
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Re: A film worth it?

lol. Please. Just because the title of a bill has the word theft in it, you think copyright infringement is theft? The title has little to do with the legal elements necessary to prove infringement. Show me the legal elements in the copyright statues that talk about theft.

I've been doing IP law for 15 years and never have we called it theft. Point me to a published opinion where a plaintiff won the case by pleading copyright infringement as theft. You won't find one.

Really what gets old is the clueless spouting off without any basis for their positions.

Matt3
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Jamestown, NC
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1 recommendation

Re: A film worth it?

said by Badonkadonk:

I've been doing IP law for 15 years and never have we called it theft.
Even the courts can't decide what it is. The line can only be seen by those who choose to ignore it, or those who have such a narrow definition because they work in the field.

To the average person, it is theft. Period.
Badonkadonk
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Naperville, IL
kudos:5

Re: A film worth it?

Oh, so now we've gone from a legal definition to an average person definition. Okay, whatever fits with your argument, go for it.

Bottom line is that copyright infringement as the laws are written presently is not theft. Period.

FFH5
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Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

Re: A film worth it?

said by Badonkadonk:

Oh, so now we've gone from a legal definition to an average person definition. Okay, whatever fits with your argument, go for it.

Bottom line is that copyright infringement as the laws are written presently is not theft. Period.
Copyright infringement is mostly a legal & technical term. Theft, besides being a legal term, is also a generic term meaning to take something(goods, services, reputation, etc) that does not belong to you. Both terms can be used to apply to copyright infringement.

Those who go ballistic over using the word "Theft" when applied to copyright infringement, I suspect just don't like to see themselves as THIEVES, but don't see the same negative connotation in being called copyright infringers. It carries less moral weight against their actions.
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hopeflicker
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1 edit

Re: A film worth it?

said by FFH5:

said by Badonkadonk:

Oh, so now we've gone from a legal definition to an average person definition. Okay, whatever fits with your argument, go for it.

Bottom line is that copyright infringement as the laws are written presently is not theft. Period.
Copyright infringement is mostly a legal & technical term. Theft, besides being a legal term, is also a generic term meaning to take something(goods, services, reputation, etc) that does not belong to you. Both terms can be used to apply to copyright infringement.

Those who go ballistic over using the word "Theft" when applied to copyright infringement, I suspect just don't like to see themselves as THIEVES, but don't see the same negative connotation in being called copyright infringers. It carries less moral weight against their actions.
Tell me, how does it feel to steal money out of the pockets of TV networks when you fast forward through them pesky commercials? ohhhh, such taboo that i speak
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Badonkadonk
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Reviews:
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said by FFH5:

Copyright infringement is mostly a legal & technical term. Theft, besides being a legal term, is also a generic term meaning to take something(goods, services, reputation, etc) that does not belong to you. Both terms can be used to apply to copyright infringement.

Oh, please do teach me more!

Those who go ballistic over using the word "Theft" when applied to copyright infringement, I suspect just don't like to see themselves as THIEVES, but don't see the same negative connotation in being called copyright infringers. It carries less moral weight against their actions.
Or maybe some are attorneys that know better . . .

FFH5
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Re: A film worth it?

said by Badonkadonk:

]Or maybe some are attorneys that know better . . .
I have never met a lawyer yet that understood morality. It seems to be drummed out of them in law school.
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Badonkadonk
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1 edit

Re: A film worth it?

Get off your high horse. I've always fought copyright infringement as a lawyer. I've always been wary of many of the transport methods that clearly are used for infringement, even though there are legitimate uses.

Until you know me and how I think, keep your generalizations to yourself.

Bit00
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000

1 recommendation

What about Core IP? What about Core IP's customers? Who is going to compensate them for their losses?

When it turns out that Core IP had nothing to do with it, the MPAA membership and FBI should be liable to reimburse Core IP and their customers for this avoidable interference in their business.
JoelC707
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Lanett, AL
kudos:5

Re: A film worth it?

I absolutely 100% agree with you and was coming here to ask that very same question. Let alone the businesses that have lost countless thousands or millions because of this, what about the 911 issues they caused? I'd hate to be the one that has to explain this when inevitably someone has been inconvenienced or worse by the lack of phone/911 service because of this.

And regarding the other businesses colocated there, there needs to be some kind of procedure in place to prevent collateral damage. The FBI had NO BUSINESS turning everything off like they did. I'd be willing to bet they stormed in at gunpoint and flipped every breaker they could find without any regards for what it might do. I realize most of them aren't computer savvy but I'll bet they don't do that again if it ruins the very data they needed to make the case because they caused a head crash on the drive.

Noah Vail
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·Bright House

Re: A film worth it?

Like everyone else on Earth, Law Enforcement isn't perfect.

If law enforcement escapes some sort of deterrent against poor judgment, we'll have more poor judgment from law enforcement.

It's a lot easier to support LE Agencies when I can trust them.

NV
--
In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people.
I call it the Crapture.

biggbrother
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Providence, RI
said by Bit00:

What about Core IP? What about Core IP's customers? Who is going to compensate them for their losses?
No one. It's called being "caught up" in a criminal investigation by the government. It's a way of life and happens to thousands of legitimate businesses every year.

If you own a convenience store and a criminal runs through your store with police in tow... guess what? Your closed for business and the yellow tape goes around it until further notice.

If you own rental property and the police come into your tenant's unit and kick down the doors and tear up the place, they ARE NOT going to reimburse you.
--
"Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them." -- George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Bit00
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join:2009-02-19
00000

Re: A film worth it?

"Caught up". This goes way beyond caught up.

Bit00
Premium
join:2009-02-19
00000
Copyright infringement isn't theft. It's copyright infringement.
lacklusterbb

join:2009-03-12

Re: A film worth it?

Actually, amendments to the copyright act have made copyright violations a criminal act in the U.S. It's unfortunate, but US lawmakers, at the urging of lobbyists for the film and music industry will probably keep ramping up the criminal penalties in response to uncontrollable actions in foreign countries that turn a blind eye to copyright violations. The US-based film and music industry has little influence in those countries (and most likely never will). Although the media in the US doesn't focus on it, we have plenty of working poor people in this country (and that number is swelling), but our government doesn't look at issues like price gouging or monopolistic practices that encourage price gouging. Foreign governments that turn a blind eye on copyright infringement generally believe their citizens shouldn't have to pay what western copyright holders charge, even though their citizens are benefiting from opened US trade and the shifting of jobs from the US to their countries. The movie studios and music industry had best look at their business models as more and more US-based production disappears. When the majority of the citizenry in this country are working minimum wage jobs, they're going to have a hard time giving away their product here, let alone selling it at inflated prices.

mod_wastrel
iamwhatiam

join:2008-03-28
kudos:1
When it involves someone taking some 99 cent songs, they like to call it copyright infringement. When it involves multi-million dollar movies, they call it IP theft. I generally hold to the old school, traditional definition: taking something that doesn't belong to you that wasn't given to you by its owner has always been theft. Of course, that's what the FBI warnings attached to movies tell you. It is disappointing, though, to see the FBI in bed with the Maf-IAAs... no good will come of it. I also have no doubt that the movie was "released" by the film's PR agents because they know that doing so will only increase the film's gross--loads of free advertising. (Of course, if the film's a stinker... meh.)

FFH5
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Re: A film worth it?

said by mod_wastrel:

I also have no doubt that the movie was "released" by the film's PR agents because they know that doing so will only increase the film's gross--loads of free advertising. (Of course, if the film's a stinker... meh.)
Do you really think the PR guys would do that and THEN call in the FBI to investigate and risk being arrested?
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mod_wastrel
iamwhatiam

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Re: A film worth it?

Uhhh, yeah! They (and who is "they"? you tell me) have more than one guy in PR (by a lot I expect)... it only takes one (and maybe it wasn't a PR guy--all the same to me), with or without someone's "blessing". I never said I thought they were particularly intelligent, and I already know they're not trustworthy.

Also, I'm only being slightly facetious. I mean, I don't think someone "on the outside" broke in to some vault and stole it. Yep, I'll wager that it was an inside job.

Regardless, it's a film I may never see, so I'm remarkably unconcerned.

Bit00
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join:2009-02-19
00000

1 edit
It's simple copyright infringement.

The xxAA folks want to call everything "theft" to over sensationalize it.

swhx7
Premium
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia
Of course it's worth investigating. But it doesn't justify trampling on the rights and property of lots of innocent citizens or companies, and imposing large costs on them, when the investigation could be handled more intelligently by tracing the path of the leaked release in non-destructive ways.

Noah Vail
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·Bright House
said by DufiefData:

It is absolutely worth it -- this is a theft that could cost an American company tens- to hundreds of millions of dollars. It's a gross theft of intellectual property and creative material and it has to be stopped.
So then, you'd voluntarily bring your company's business to a halt, for a week or more, if it would aid an MPAA affiliate investigate a leak after the fact?
NV
--
In my perfect religion, a giant hole appears and sucks up all the lousy people.
I call it the Crapture.

••••••
Kearnstd
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1 edit
what right does the FBI have to shut those servers off? Core IP should have said no we will not power down current customers.

one movie is in no way at all worth more then even one business customer's connection.

Core IP should sue the MPAA, the studio and the FBI for the value of all refunds their contracts will likely require them to pay their customers.

•••