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Straphanger
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join:2001-12-08
Whitestone, NY

Straphanger

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Circuit Breaker Issue

After a bit of a snafu with the decades old wiring in the house, we had to wire up a few new circuits to parts of the house using external conduits and boxes.

The electrician who did it had to hook up several new breakers to our box for the new circuits. The issue was that he could only find 30 amp breakers while the other breakers in the box are rated for 20 amps. He said that we could use the circuits with the 30 amp breaker but recommended us switching to 20 amp breakers.

Unfortunately, our house uses old Type Q breakers that can't be found in many places locally. The best a local hardware store had was a dusty 20 amp Type Z that had been sitting on the shelf for years selling for $30. I was able to find used 20 amp Type Q breakers on eBay for about $10 each.

Is it really worth the trouble to switch from the current 30 amp breaker to a 20 amp breaker?

mackey
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join:2007-08-20

mackey

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Yes!!! As it is now, unless he used #10 wire (unlikely), the wiring will overheat and could cause a fire and the breaker will not trip. If teh wire is only #14, you need 15A breakers not 20A. It needs to be #12 for a 20A breaker.

nunya
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Your electrician did a disservice by leaving this in tact. He should not have left with 30A breakers on 20A circuits.
This is a code violation and safety hazard.

Sounds like you were (are) due for a panel change. Used breakers are a last resort or temporary (overnight) fix. There comes a point when you are throwing good money after bad. What brand is your panel?
nunya

nunya

MVM

What has me very concerned is Zinsco / GTE / Sylvania called some of their breakers "Q". These panels have known issues and should be replaced. Any electrician worth his salt would have identified this issue and made you aware before starting work. Since this "electrician" was so nonchalant about walking away with your circuits improperly protected, I'd look elsewhere. Licensed, Bonded, Insured. Not just words.

Savant
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Toronto

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As was mentioned, this is a safety hazard. You ask if it is "worth the trouble" to change it out. Ask yourself if it is "worth the trouble" to have a fire and live out of a hotel while your house is repaired.

Technically those breakers should all be 15 amps if they are on 14 gauge wire. You need to hire a proper electrician, one who knows how to follow electrical code, and get him to look over your panel. It sounds like there are plenty of safety issues that need fixing.

voiplover
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Portsmouth, NH

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My advice: Ask your neighbors to stock up on marshmallows!

Straphanger
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Whitestone, NY

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Well the breakers I found on eBay were these: »cgi.ebay.com/ZINSCO-20-A ··· 20.l1116
I doubt there's any new breakers of this type anymore since I've yet to see them online or in a store.

Looks like I won't have a choice for now but to get these as a temporary measure.

The electrician suggested that the panel be replaced with a newer model but it's going to be a fairly big job due to the space restrictions in the basement. We're going to need some time to move stuff around and see if we can get another person to do it.

Our entire house is basically not up to code anyways since it is 80+ years old. I believe it was grandfathered in with the old rules. We are looking at a total renovation, including all new electrical, but that's not for another year or so. Going to take a lot of time to sort that all out.

rex0
join:2002-02-10

rex0

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You might want to have a look at »inspect-ny.com/electric/ ··· nsco.htm

Nick_L
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join:2003-01-22
Pittsburgh, PA

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said by Straphanger:

The electrician suggested that the panel be replaced with a newer model but it's going to be a fairly big job due to the space restrictions in the basement.

We are looking at a total renovation, including all new electrical, but that's not for another year or so. Going to take a lot of time to sort that all out.
That is unfortunate, as what you describe could definately be a large fire risk. Unfortunately real life sometimes intrudes on best intentions. Start saving now, replace the box asap. Persnoally, I wouldnt wait for the whole house remodel, the box can be upgraded, and the new wiring added later.

In the meantime, what is connected to these circuits? I suggest making sure there is nothing on them that would pull a large load, ie. anthing that heats, any motors, large electronics. The problem is that these things could, in combination with other things, easily overload the capacity of the wire while not exceeding the breaker rating. Poof, FIRE.

Also, perhaps you could post a pic or two of the wire that the electrician used, so one of the experts here could tell you if those 20 amp breakers would be any safer.

Nick

Savant
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There is 'up to code' and there is 'dangerous'. Unfortunately this falls into the later category.

For example, the code will require a minimum number of plugs on a given wall, depending on distance to doors, width of wall etc. If my house was not 'up to code' in this regard, I probably wouldn't lose too much sleep about it.

However, running too much current on a wire that can't handle it isn't just a 'code' issue, it's plain dangerous. Once you reach a certain point the wire WILL fail, and something bad WILL happen.

It's quite possible that the 20 amp breakers in your panel are not up to code either. Often, in older homes, people upgraded breakers from 15 amps to 20 amps instead of changing the wiring. With so much electrical equipment, the old circuits couldn't handle the load. While 14 gauge wire can handle 20 amps of current, it leaves no room for overload. As such, that gauge of wire is only rated for 15 amp breakers.

So what you need the electrician to check, BEFORE you go and buy any new breakers, is the gauge of the wire running to every breaker in your panel. Only once you verify that should you act on it.

14 gauge wire = 15 amps
12 gauge wire = 20 amps
10 gauge wire = 30 amps

As for the debate about the safety of the panel itself, that's another matter entirely. My suggestion would be to have the electrician (carefully) remove all the breakers in the panel and check for signs of damage. If they are all OK then you can likely change the panel in the next year when you do your renovation. However, it is too dangerous to leave this '30 amp' situation, and popping in 20 amp breakers is no better if the wire is 14 gauge. You need to verify the size of the wire BEFORE you do anything else. Once that is done you need to make sure the breakers match the appropriate gauge of wire it is supplied with.

Straphanger
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I looked at a few websites and older threads about replacing the entire circuit breaker panels and it looks like it'll run up to a couple thousand dollar range. This is a two-family house so there's a second breaker panel to replace too (though the first floor residents barely use any power at it is). I think the breaker is from the 70's when the house received a mini-renovation from the previous owners. I'll look for the box brand tomorrow.

There's nothing too energy consuming currently on the circuits now. Mostly ceiling lamps, table lamps, a laptop, and several clock radios. In the kitchen, there is a microwave and portable washing machine but we were told that as long as we don't use them both at once (which we never do anyways), we'd be okay until we could acquire a 20 amp breaker.

I will try and get some pictures of the circuit box and the wiring tomorrow. I would think he's using 12 gauge wire but I didn't get a good look at it when he was installing it.
KirkyInCT
join:2008-11-04
Higganum, CT

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Color is probably good enough.

White - 14g
Yellow - 12g
Orange - 10g

whizkid3
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Queens, NY

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Receptacles and typical residential lighting circuits should never be over 20 amps. The so-called electrician should not have done this, knowing both that it is a code violation and a fire and shock hazard.

As others have posted, these Zinzco breakers themselves are dangerous fire hazard, which is why you don't find them anymore. Buying them on e-bay is not a solution (but is better than having 30A breakers on 20A or 15A circuits). It has nothing to do with the age of your house, or grandfathered codes (which don't apply in NYC to new or re-wired circuits - they must follow the current code, NEC 2005).

Any competent electrician could replace that panel for less than $1000 - even in NYC. You should do it asap. It doesn't need to wait for the remodel (in which case, if you wait, you may not have a house to remodel).

cowboyro
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join:2000-10-11
CT

cowboyro

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said by whizkid3:

Any competent electrician could replace that panel for less than $1000 - even in NYC. You should do it asap. It doesn't need to wait for the remodel (in which case, if you wait, you may not have a house to remodel).
$1800-2500 in CT. I had my panel replaced last year and was given several quotes.
30A breakers on 15A circuits can be dangerous if big loads are connected.

mattmag

join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois

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said by KirkyInCT:

Color is probably good enough.

White - 14g
Yellow - 12g
Orange - 10g
You can't depend on the color of the jacket to tell you the wire gauge. Too many variables there... Best way is to identify the labeling on the outer sheath and then you know for sure.

Straphanger
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Click for full size
This is what my mess of a circuit box looks like. There's few identifying stickers on the box itself other than that one Zinsco silver sticker, which was on the other circuit box (for the first floor).

I don't actually know what the heck is going on in here. I forgot about the blue 15 amp breakers but I think they're connected to the oldest circuits in the house (parts where the house's original 2-prong plugs are). From what I can tell, he rigged two of the three new circuits he installed to the 30 amp breaker as a temporary fix. The third circuit he wired to an empty 20 amp breaker.

It looks like he ran black 12 AWG wires from the second floor down to the basement circuit box. It gets a bit tricky once you get onto the second floor though. I opened up a couple switches and junction boxes (since everything is outside the wall) and saw that he connected the black wires running from the basement to red wires to distribute among the switches and receptacles. As best I can tell, the red wires are visibly thinner and seem to be marked 14 AWG on the jacket. I have no idea why he changed from black to red to distribute power...possibly a cost cutting measure? There is one other orange wire (marked 12 AWG) going into the kitchen, presumably for the microwave/washing machine, but I have to go check on that later.

So it's a bit of a messy wiring job here. Any thoughts on this?

I will be flipping through the yellow pages this weekend to find someone else who can replace the entire circuit box. I just hope there's enough space in the cramped closet the box is in now.

superdog
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Another "quick fix" that may work for now is to put everything that has been done incorrectly onto a sub-panel. You could then size out a breaker of perhaps 30amp that feeds the panel and put 15 or 20 amp breakers in the new panel to get the correct amperage rating for the wires installed.

I am NOT an electrician and I have no idea if doing this would even be code, but in my mind it has to be safer?.

cowboyro
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CT

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said by mattmag:

You can't depend on the color of the jacket to tell you the wire gauge. Too many variables there... Best way is to identify the labeling on the outer sheath and then you know for sure.
x2. Especially with old cables. Mine are ALL white.

Savant
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said by Straphanger:
So it's a bit of a messy wiring job here. Any thoughts on this? I will be flipping through the yellow pages this weekend to find someone else who can replace the entire circuit box. I just hope there's enough space in the cramped closet the box is in now.
I'm sure you would have room to replace it. Why not grab some L x W measurements of the box (from the outside metal edges) and post them here. We can then offer some choices.

I'm not keen on that broken 20 amp breaker (just below the main breaker) you have in there. I know there is no feed on it, but slap some electrical tape over the hole just to be on the safe side until it is removed. I don't see any stove/dryer/hot water connections, are all your major appliances on gas?

I noticed a distinct lack of ground wires in the box. While this is common in older homes, you need to make sure that any receptacles that are installed (that are not two-prong receptacles) are protected by a GFCI receptacle. (Or you can use GFCI breakers, but they are more expensive, however they are easier to work with since you don't have to worry about whether you miss any plugs.) I'd advise that you spend a few bucks and buy something like this. While I use the Ideal version myself, there are cheaper versions available at your local Home Depot or Lowes etc. Once you have it, read up on the various lights so you know what is 'normal/correct', and then start plugging it in around the house. Check in particular for no ground connection and hot/neutral reversed conditions. You will want to fix these problems at the same time as replacing the panel. (While you can't test two prong receptacles with that tester, something tells me that you probably don't have too many left in the house.)

I also don't see a connection to ground for the panel itself. Is that red wire in the top left (the one not cut) running to the cold water pipe or ground source? If so, it's too small and it really should be marked. (That cut wire should have a marrette or tape on it, or be bent back out of the way to be safe.) If changing the panel, the ground wire will have to be brought up to code if it is not.

In the end, unless you can verify that a circuit run is 12 gauge throughout the entire run, you will want to make sure the breaker is a 15 amp breaker. As you found, there is 12 gauge in the panel but 14 gauge further down the circuit. This is a recipe for danger if left on a 20 amp breaker. Better safe than sorry, put in 15 amp breakers for any circuit that isn't specifically supposed to have a 20 amp breaker for a specific purpose. (Like a water heater, air conditioner, kitchen counter GFI etc.)

Glad to hear you are acting on this.

nunya
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That cluster-f$%& (a.k.a. as your panel) needs to be replaced. BTW, that is typical of a Zinsco panel. Never enough room to work with.
New panels have a larger footprint, but have more room for the wirework. It appears your existing panel doesn't have enough spaces now anyway.
It looks as if it might be a bit of bitch to replace because of the conduit entrances, but that is stuff for the electrician to worry about, not you.
Prices vary by region, but around here that would be in the $1K-2K range. The service ahead may be outdated too.
I'd have the work done by the previous "electrician" inspected as well. If the wire changes gauges, it must be protected for the smaller gauge.

whizkid3
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Queens, NY

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Unfortunately (regarding the service) like most older homes in Queens, the service is underground, daisy-chained from house-to-house, with the only way it can be upgraded is by Con-Ed either running utility poles down the street; or doing an underground upgrade on the entire block. (Fat chance of getting a service upgrade, unless the poles already run down your street.) Plus the typical size of the houses in most of Queens (including Strap's neighborhood) and the use of gas appliances, don't require anything more than 100A.

The grounding is through the service conduit (notice the grounding bushing). It was done via the metallic panel. Chances are when his house was built, all of the circuits were armored cable or conduit (or both). Thus no need for equipment grounding wires. The bonding connection could be hidden by the breakers or can be in either the meter pan or splice box (to connect to the next house) below the panelboard.

This electrician, and probably quite few others over the years, added branch circuits without grounding.

The panel is a mess and should be updated for quite a few reasons. Panel upgrades are generally less than $1000. The few here that mentioned $1800 plus, are probably including a service upgrade as well. (Except for cowboyro, who will quickly comeback and refute this - its his style of bragging.)

mattmag

join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois

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As the pros have noted, the box needs to go. I can't imagine a competent electrician taking a 12AWG circuit and branching it to 14AWG, and then on top of that, connect it to a 30A breaker....yowwie.

Now, I can tell you this horror story from first-hand experience about a Zinsco panel;

When I purchased my house several years ago, it came "equipped" with a 100A main double-row Zinsco box with the same breakers yours has, just two rows of them. I knew they were junk, and planned to replace it soon, and had that factored into my purchase offer. I had taken a cursory glance at it, and it seemed to be "OK" for now.

Well, for now turned into RIGHT now one day when my wife called me at work and said "All the power went off in the house". I replied OK, and told her it was still on in my end of town, but it can happen where just a portion of town goes out. No biggie... Then I got to thinking and worrying, and went home to check. What I found still amazes me... The main breaker had tripped. Not usually a good sign. So, I get to looking closer, and placed my hand on the main to attempt a reset, and damn near burned my fingers off!

It was hot as hell, and looking closer found that the entire top surface of the main was fried black, and pieces were totally missing, plus I could see down INSIDE the breaker since the holes were so big. NICE! Turns out all the stories are VERY true. The Zinsco panels used a "folded" metal contact in the breaker to grab onto the main lug rails. This folded metal would expand and contract with use from heating, and each time it expanded, it never quite contracted as far as it expanded. So....eventually there is almost no contact between the main lug and the breaker, and it makes ALL KINDS of heat, literally baking it into dust.

Short version again-----get it replaced SOON!


Straphanger
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I'll try to get measurements and pictures of the enclosure itself tomorrow.

All my major appliances (stoves, water heater, central heater) are all natural gas. The only "major" appliances I have would be a microwave, portable washing machine, and my computers. There are two air conditioners but only for a couple months a year.

The lack of a ground wire had always been an issue for me. The electrician took note of it but as whizkid3 pointed out, the box is grounded and so are all the conduits connected to it. The way I check for a ground right now is to plug in a Belkin surge protector, which lights up red when no ground is detected. So far, this hasn't been an issue with the new circuits that were set up. I will look at Home Depot and see if they have the EZ Check circuit tester for a decent price. There is a place selling it for $23 online.

There was a lack of three prong receptacles in the house but that has been corrected with the new circuits. The part of the house that lost power were all older two prong circuits. I don't have any idea what that cut red wire on the top left is for. It might be the remnants of the old circuit that blew out.

I would like to get a 15 amp breaker but it doesn't look like anyone has it available anymore in the type I need. I guess a 20 amp breaker is better than a 30 amp breaker for now while I wait to install a new circuit breaker panel. Need to collect a few estimates before I go ahead with it, since it is a fairly big job. I would need to replace two panels (one for each floor of the house) so this would run me in the $2000 area?

Also, will major appliances, such as the microwave, air conditioner, or dehumidifier, be affected by having only 15 amps available instead of 20?

cacroll
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Martinez, CA

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cacroll

Premium Member

said by Savant:

14 gauge wire = 15 amps
12 gauge wire = 20 amps
10 gauge wire = 30 amps
said by Straphanger:

Also, will major appliances, such as the microwave, air conditioner, or dehumidifier, be affected by having only 15 amps available instead of 20?


If you have 14 gauge wire, you don't have 20A, you have 15A.

If a major appliance draws over 15A, with a 14 gauge wire and a 20A breaker, the wire becomes a heating element, and you have a fire. And, yes, the major appliances (and the other appliances too) will be affected.

Savant
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said by Straphanger:
Also, will major appliances, such as the microwave, air conditioner, or dehumidifier, be affected by having only 15 amps available instead of 20?
All of those appliances run normally on 15 amp circuits just fine. There is a simple way to validate this by looking at the label on it. If it doesn't show the input amps, then it will show input wattage. A regular 15amp line will carry up to ~1800 watts when the voltage is 120v. So as long as the device doesn't use more than that, it will work on a 15 amp circuit just fine.

The only problem happens when you put a number of high current devices on a circuit and run them at the same time. For example, let's say your microwave takes 1200 watts and you plug in an air conditioner that takes 1000 watts. In this case you will blow the breaker because the total current draw exceeds the available current on that line.

As I noted, if you have a 14 gauge wire, it will only carry up to 15 amps (~1800 watts @ 120v) on it before being considered to be overloaded.

Think of a wire like a inner-tube. They all have a 'max pressure' that they can handle. So long as you don't exceed that pressure the tube is fine. Exceed it and there is a chance the tube will blow. It may not blow right away, it may blow when you are least prepared for it. In the case of a wire the 'blow' is an electrical fire.

I don't think it should cost $2000. Even if you change both panels, the bottom line is that it's more labor that is the big cost. The panel kits are fairly cheap by today's standards.

Here is an example of something I think will fit, just grabbing from Home Depot for sake of ease...

Cutler-Hammer Disconnect/Loadcenter: $55 (includes 100A main breaker)

Assembled Depth (In Inches) : 4.25 In.
Assembled Height (In Inches) : 18.75 In.
Assembled Width (In Inches) : 15.75 In.
Has room for 12 breakers. Extra 15AMP single breakers are $3.50 each

For your sub-panel on the other floor, it doesn't need a main breaker since it would have a main breaker in the main panel. So you only need a distribution panel.

Cutler-Hammer Loadcenter: $35 (includes five 15AMP breakers)
Extra breakers are same as above.

I personally prefer SquareD, but they cost more.

While the above is just an example, and not a quote, I think you can see that parts are not going to be the big cost here. The lion's share of cost will be labor, which you will need to get a quote on. Just make sure you deal with a licensed shop so you don't run into any problems down the road.

nunya
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A 12 space panel would be ridiculous. The Zinsco that's there has 10.
Have a panel installed with 20 ckts. minimum. Hell, the smallest panel I will install is 24 spaces. Normally 30 on a 100A and 40 on a 200A.
Product lines vary by contractor (whoever installs it). I carry Siemens and Eaton (Cutler-Hammer).
I quit installing Square-D years ago. Overpriced and cheaply made. I think most of their residential stuff got "Home Depot-ized".

wilbilt
Pronto Resurrected
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join:2004-01-11
Oroville, CA

wilbilt

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said by nunya:

I quit installing Square-D years ago. Overpriced and cheaply made. I think most of their residential stuff got "Home Depot-ized".
...or counterfeited...

I have a similar Zinsco panel outdoors that is the main service for my property. I had a similar issue as mattmag See Profile with an arced main breaker about 15 years ago. I obtained another breaker and installed it on a different spot on the bus. It has been doing fine since, but I still keep an eye on it.

I really need to upgrade to a more modern design when cashflow permits. I'm sure the county will make me replace the entire power pole, so it will be more than a $200 weekend project.

whizkid3
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said by Straphanger:

The lack of a ground wire had always been an issue for me. The electrician took note of it but as whizkid3 pointed out, the box is grounded and so are all the conduits connected to it. The way I check for a ground right now is to plug in a Belkin surge protector, which lights up red when no ground is detected. So far, this hasn't been an issue with the new circuits that were set up.
Unfortunately, looking at the photo's of your breaker box, its the new circuits that are most concerning. I can not see any grounding for these (with the exception of any in conduit or armored cable). The Belkin is not going to tell you if the grounds are installed properly, unfortunately. My guess is that some knucklehead, bonded the neutrals to the ground inside of the new 3-prong outlet boxes which is very wrong and dangerous, but would cause the belkin to report that its OK. The only way to check this is to actually open the boxes and visually inspect them. Its also possible that you have the receptacle grounds connected to local water pipes - also not recommended.

Savant
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Toronto

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said by nunya:
A 12 space panel would be ridiculous. The Zinsco that's there has 10. Have a panel installed with 20 ckts. minimum. Hell, the smallest panel I will install is 24 spaces. Normally 30 on a 100A and 40 on a 200A.
The ones I linked were just examples based on physical space restrictions. It's hard to know what space is available. However I agree that one should install the largest panel that can reasonably be installed for the given size of service.
quote:
Product lines vary by contractor (whoever installs it). I carry Siemens and Eaton (Cutler-Hammer). I quit installing Square-D years ago. Overpriced and cheaply made. I think most of their residential stuff got "Home Depot-ized".
Really? I've never had any problems with them. I don't want to get the thread off course, but what problems have you had. (I have heard about the counterfeit issue, but that can happen to any company that is popular. The only other issue was that AFCI problem, which was isolated.)

I think SquareD has a long way to go before we start calling them 'Federal Pioneer'.

Straphanger
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Thanks for the information on the effect of amps on appliances. I have a Kill A Watt so maybe I'll spend the weekend checking out how many amps they all draw. I usually keep the major appliances on separate circuits, never having more than one on a single circuit and usually don't have them on at the same time.

I'll try to get the dimensions tonight of the the circuit breaker box but I doubt I can fit in a panel much larger than what I have now. The current panel and the meter take up most of the vertical space in the box.

Also, I've read on some websites that I can get a whole house surge protector installed at the circuit box. Think I should do this too and how much would that add to the installation?