said by OwlSaver
In FiOS, the TV, Internet, and Phone service are all delivered over their own dedicated Fibre wavelength. In the home, Coax is used for TV and MOCA, Cat5/Cat6 is used for Internet, and Cat3 is used for phone. So, there is less contention for bandwidth.[/QUOTE :

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Not in the installs that I've seen. It's Coax into the home for Internet and Video. Then twisted pair for the phone.

My point is that they can have all the bandwith they want from the CO to the ONT but they are still tied to the same restriction as cable from the ONT to the STB.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22256940 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 07:49:42 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255081 JPL :

said by Eat Me :

said by BosstonesOwn :

---

Guess you never heard of this thing called physics and signal degradation ?

---

Signal degradation has zero to do with available bandwidth.

quote:

---

If you look at the fiber specs for the equipment they used , they are definitely not near running out of bandwidth , for them its as easy as adding another shade and using a newer ont on new subs homes.

---

Which costs money. They are already in the hole $8000 per sub.

As others have pointed out, signal degredation DOES affect bandwidth. Since signal strength drop-off happens faster at higher frequencies, most cable systems can't run at 870MHz. Some are upgrading to 1GHz service, but to get there requires a stronger signal, which equates to more boosting stations.

And that $8000 figure is patently ridiculous. Guesstimates I've seen on line put the figure at half that. But that's exactly what they are - guesstimates. And old ones at that. The cost of fiber continues to drop precipitously, and Verizon has gotten better/more efficient at doing installations, dropping cost even further.

One thing that strikes me when people criticize the cost of FiOS, they have no problem throwing out old figures in terms of cost ($4000/customer). All technology comes down in price over time (when DBS first became available, I remember seeing a DirecTV setup in a department store - price: $1000+, which included a single LNB dish and one receiver - this was before they were able to carry locals... and didn't include installation - they expected you to either do it yourself or hire someone to do it). But somehow, many of these analysts think that cost of fiber just defies gravity. Please.

There's one other side of this that people also miss. One time I had a tech over my house, and I started asking him about how FiOS works. He said that FiOS is more than just about bring fiber to your house. It's a highly automated system, that allows them to diagnose, and even fix, many problems without having to do truck rolls, saving money. That's a big aspect of FiOS - Verizon estimated that when their roll-out of FiOS is done, they're going to save $1Billion/year in reduced maintenance costs. That's probably an over-estimation, but even if they're off by 100%, and "only" save $500Million/year, that's not insigificant. Fiber doesn't degrade... it doesn't breakdown (I've seen pictures of their fiber sitting in several inches of standing water, to no ill-effect) and it's not prone to atmospheric conditions. About the only way you can affect it is to break it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255081 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:20:23 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255008 JPL :

said by iansltx :

Pretty sure it's an 860MHz equivalent. Not 1GHz but you don't need that 140 MHz since it'd be for data and that's on anoher wavelength anyhow.

That's correct - it runs ~870MHz for TV service. But there's a difference between FiOS and traditional cable on this front. First, most cable services run well below 870MHz. Second, Verizon uses all 870MHz for linear TV feeds. All other associated feeds (guide data, VOD, widgets) all come in via the IP feed, which is separate from the TV feed. As a result of that layout (and the fact that they don't have any analog service), FiOS runs with 135 QAM channels. That's what gives them the room to carry all their channels with no additional compression.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255008 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:05:32 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253136 iansltx : WDM internet would be nice, but there's no need atm. Even the new DOCSIS 3 packages can't compete with 50/20 FiOS and Verizon knows that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253136 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:20:05 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252991 patcat88 :

said by iansltx :

VZ runs phone on one wavelength, video on another, internet on another...

Thats irrelevant. It was designed that way for equipment simplification at the Central Office, not for higher speeds. Phone is only 64kbit ISDN over fiber for example.

How about WDM internet which would be the real purpose of WDM in the first place, since its impossible to overload the TV or Phone portions at the moment.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252991 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:58:47 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252957 iansltx : VZ runs phone on one wavelength, video on another, internet on another...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252957 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:53:15 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252954 iansltx : Pretty sure it's an 860MHz equivalent. Not 1GHz but you don't need that 140 MHz since it'd be for data and that's on anoher wavelength anyhow.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252954 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:52:18 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252791 PapaMidnight :

said by Eat Me :

said by BosstonesOwn :

---

Guess you never heard of this thing called physics and signal degradation ?

---

Signal degradation has zero to do with available bandwidth.

Except for the funny fact that it does. In order to compensate for Signal Degradation, one needs to increase the signal strength. What is the cost in doing so? More bandwidth usage.

Think.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252791 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:27:37 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252504 patcat88 :

said by BosstonesOwn :

If you look at the fiber specs for the equipment they used , they are definitely not near running out of bandwidth , for them its as easy as adding another shade and using a newer ont on new subs homes.

Which the equipment doesn't exist for. WDM PON is a proposal some people are throwing around the industry, ITU doesn't even recognize it, let along debated making a committee for its standard.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252504 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:46:20 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252313 AVonGauss : $8000 per sub?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252313 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:18:08 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252268 soothsayer15 :

said by Eat Me :

said by BosstonesOwn :

---

Guess you never heard of this thing called physics and signal degradation ?

---

Signal degradation has zero to do with available bandwidth.

quote:

---

If you look at the fiber specs for the equipment they used , they are definitely not near running out of bandwidth , for them its as easy as adding another shade and using a newer ont on new subs homes.

---

Which costs money. They are already in the hole $8000 per sub.

Wow. It's apparent that you have not worked in telecommunications. If you did, I feel bad for your employer.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252268 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:10:14 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252150 Eat Me : Modern HFC systems do not have long coax runs and lots of amps.

Cable companies have been gearing up and doing node splits. My node is within walking distance.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252150 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:50:19 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252103 tschmidt :

said by Eat Me :

The limitations of coax - so why is the connaction between the ONT and the Actiontec done with MoCA,

So they can reuse existing coax rather then run twisted pair. Saves them the cost of installing new customer premise wiring.

said by Eat Me :

why is FiOS using cable TV technology to deliver FiOS TV?

Quick and dirty backward compatibility with conventional CATV practice. Got them up and running with TV quickly while IPTV matures and they transition FIOS FTTP to GPON.

Was cost effective way to support TV. Verizon uses a third lambda (color) to emulate HFC CATV network. At the ONT optical signal is converted to electrical RF carried over coax.

/tom]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252103 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:41:05 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252045 OwlSaver : Cable systems use one Coax to deliver TV, Internet, and Phone service. So, they are all competing for the Coax Bandwidth.

In FiOS, the TV, Internet, and Phone service are all delivered over their own dedicated Fibre wavelength. In the home, Coax is used for TV and MOCA, Cat5/Cat6 is used for Internet, and Cat3 is used for phone. So, there is less contention for bandwidth.

A true comparison would require looking at the details from the Central Office/Head End out to the home. But, it seems to me that FiOS has much more room for growth. For example, I would expect that FiOS will always have more HD content that is at the same level of compression as the source.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252045 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:30:37 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22251974 a333 : Obviously, the bandwidth is the same as cables, but as my other post states, this bandwidth is being used to deliver video/data for ONE household, as opposed to serving hundreds of homes at the same time.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22251974 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:20:16 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22251949 submrge : I'd be interested to know (if there are any VZ techs here) what the bandwith is in MHz from the ONT to the STB. I have a feeling it's *similar* to cable - (55 to 870 MHz for the forward signal).

If it is then they have similar issues that the cable co's do with bandwith.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22251949 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:16:57 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22251939 a333 : Actually, signal degradation indirectly causes a decrease in bandwidth... this is seen in both twisted pair (DSL) and coax (DOCSIS). In twisted pair, as distance decreases, signal degradation drastically increases at higher frequencies, effectively eliminating/attenuating them. And obviously, having your range of available frequencies reduced lowers your equivalent bandwidth by quite a bit, following Shannon's Law. This is kinda the reason DSL suffers on long telephone loops. Add in stuff like load coils/bridge taps and you're in trouble.
In coax, short runs usually don't show much of signal degradation, but on long runs with tons of splitters and old cabling, attenuation/noise can sometimes reduce the available bandwidth noticeably. Not to mention, some of the higher frequencies can also be attenuated, and end up having their energy converted to heat in the coax... this has happened, and was actually a huge issue back when coax was being used in undersea cables (I'm talking way before fiber was even in the labs). They actually had to place inline amps every few miles to get around the effect, but this was a rather expensive solution. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22251939 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:15:25 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22251923 anon :

said by Eat Me :

said by BosstonesOwn :

---

Guess you never heard of this thing called physics and signal degradation ?

---

Signal degradation has zero to do with available bandwidth.

quote:

---

If you look at the fiber specs for the equipment they used , they are definitely not near running out of bandwidth , for them its as easy as adding another shade and using a newer ont on new subs homes.

---

Which costs money. They are already in the hole $8000 per sub.

Ha! where did you come up with that number? It's not even close to what the actual cost are. In the beginning it was never that high. Fiber cost of been going down consistently and the cost to run fiber to a home is roughly $750. Nowhere near $8k]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22251923 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:11:37 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22251862 a333 : The connection between the ONT and Actiontec are in fact done with MoCA, but remember, that coax is a direct line between the two devices... unlike the shared coax that serves hundreds of people with BOTH data and TV service. No one argues that coax has plenty of bandwidth...it's just that coax doesn't have quite the amount of bandwidth to share amongst entire neighborhoods. i.e. a coax connection between the ONT and router is more than sufficient to serve as a link between the two devices, but may not be nearly enough to serve hundreds of people concurrently.

And btw, a fun fact about the use of "cable" topology in VZ's network: Verizon squeezes that entire cable/video signal onto ONE wavelength. The bandwidth on that wavelength is usually just shy of the TOTAL bandwidth available on the outside plant of most cable networks. On FiOS, it's just one of the multitudes of lambdas they could use. Not to mention, this means there is a HUGE amount of room for data/IPTV/VOD.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22251862 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:00:29 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22251858 Eat Me :

said by BosstonesOwn :

---

Guess you never heard of this thing called physics and signal degradation ?

---

Signal degradation has zero to do with available bandwidth.

quote:

---

If you look at the fiber specs for the equipment they used , they are definitely not near running out of bandwidth , for them its as easy as adding another shade and using a newer ont on new subs homes.

---

Which costs money. They are already in the hole $8000 per sub. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22251858 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:00:04 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22251835 BosstonesOwn :

said by Eat Me :

Yeah right?

The limitations of coax - so why is the connaction between the ONT and the Actiontec done with MoCA, and why is FiOS using cable TV technology to deliver FiOS TV?

Why did FiOS have to drop analog from its TV service? Were they running out of bandwidth like they are throwing pot shots at the cable company for doing?

Guess you never heard of this thing called physics and signal degradation ?

Moca is done only to give the box low bandwidth usage. Perfectly fine. Especially when you control such a short piece of copper.

Ever see the limitations of ethernet on a long run of cat6 ?

Fios dropped analog because they know it was a waste of bandwidth or were willing to take the shot to get rid of the filthy whore that analog transmissions in general are. Plus the fcc gave them a wide open window to do so.

If you look at the fiber specs for the equipment they used , they are definitely not near running out of bandwidth , for them its as easy as adding another shade and using a newer ont on new subs homes.
--
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22251835 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:55:20 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22251775 Eat Me : Yeah right?

The limitations of coax - so why is the connaction between the ONT and the Actiontec done with MoCA, and why is FiOS using cable TV technology to deliver FiOS TV?

Why did FiOS have to drop analog from its TV service? Were they running out of bandwidth like they are throwing pot shots at the cable company for doing?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22251775 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:42:52 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22251685 anon : This guys is on such a high horse it's unbelievable. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22251685 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:23:40 EDT