Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25
1 edit | Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 Here is a little something i thought i would post about my theory's on maximizing dps for some rogues that feel that they are a little low. Most of this has been read on other sites but its still good to see all the answers in one place. If your dps is doing fine then this is not for you, most of this is common knowledge.
--Choosing weapons and poisons--
Assassination Spec 3.1
For Assas spec you want to have instant on your MH weapon and Deadly on your OH. With the changes to PPM (Procs per minute) you will now want a slow dagger in your MH slot for max mutilate damage. For your OH its debatable right now. If you have Sinister Revenge x2 then you can use both of them. If you have Sinister revenge and webbed death or any other dagger faster than 1.5 speed then you want to use your best dagger. The reason it is sinister revenge is equal to webbed death for OH mutilate at he moment is because of the overall mutilate damage VS focused attacks procs. Stacking deadly poison doesn't seem like an issue with Master poisoner.
Combat spec/Hat
For combat spec you want wound poison on your slow MH weapon. The same as before and same as always you want the slowest MH weapon possible. For you OH weapon you want something fast. Webbed death is optimal for someone heading into Ulduar. The OH poison should be deadly for the savage combat debuff. For combat spec your going to want fist in your MH though. Fist weapons have proven slightly better than swords or maces for combat. Maybe Ulduar will release a badass MH sword and change this though. For HaT setup it is the same except a fast OH weapon is not really required. dont want to go SLOW/SLOW but 1.8 speed is allowed because you aren't worrying about and energy regen from OH weapon procs. Fist weapons are paramount for HaT though.
--Armor Choices for entering Ulduar--
If you've been through Naxx more than a few times like the majority of players have, then you are most likely reaching a lot of BiS (best in slot) armor. The same as 3.09 your going to want to be expertise capped (26/26) on your statistic screen OR 114 with 2/2 expertise in the combat tree and 214 without weapon expertise. After expertise you want to still keep the same hit caps. As combat you should aim for 314-315 hit rating and as mutilate around 237. After you've reached the proper caps then stack attack power. Attack power is more important than Agility still even more because deadly poison now receives a 12% buff from your AP. This is why berserking>mongoose always also. Trinket choices are as follows. For combat with all other BiS 3.09 items Darkmoon Card greatness and Grim Toll are your best options. Grim toll soley because it keeps you at the hit cap. If you are missing some BiS items and still have a few pieces with hit rating on them then Fury of the Five flights is BiS for you. For mutilate its Fury and Greatness. Hat it is Fury and greatness also. I cannot stress how important it is to hold on to your 4 set bonus as long as possible. The bonus is so great is out weighs breaking it with any Ulduar tier pieces until you have a 2-set bonus. Even then it is arguably better to hold onto your 4 set until you have more and more Ulduar gear.
--Rotations--
Assassination or mutilate 3.1
Your going to want to start off with garotte if you can. Opening from stealth is important because of overkill. Immediately after garrote set up Hunger for blood and then Slice in Dice with your single combo point. After setting SnD precede to Mutilate to 4-5 combo points and set up rupture and then mutilate again to 5 combo points and evenom your SnD to full. Envenom when ever your HFB is over 4 seconds and your rupture has enough time left. Rotation prioritys are Hunger, SnD, and then Rupture. Even though your hunger is 1 min it is paramount to keep it up at all times. The damage increase is just too much. Also for heading from trash pull to trash you can refresh hunger at the last minute to keep it flowing in between pulls.
Combat 3.1
For combat spec your going to want to open as fast as possible. Garrote is nice but if it is slowing you down opening from stealth isnt nearly as important for combat spec. Once you charge in immediately sinister strike and with 2 combo points setup SnD and then Sinister strike to 5 points and setup rupture. After this just continue to keep up rupture and slice n dice. SnD has priority and Eviscerate when you can. For multiple mobs you want to time Killing spree with Blade Flurry. Make sure that you trick of the trade before letting off Killing spree or Blade Flurry. Save Adrenaline rush for those cluth moments when you need the most out of your DPS.
Honor Amongst Thieves (HaT) 3.1
This rotation is really different from the other two because there isn't really a set in stone setup. Open with premed and start of with one hemo and then setup SnD. After SnD i rolling Hemo and get 5 combo points and set rupture. Weave rupture and SnD in with evis spamming if you are feeling combo point starved feel free to hemo. You want to get the most out of the combo points so always drop 5 point eviscerates if you have the chance. Priority is Slice in dice and then rupture. Vanishing during combat not only resets your aggro but it gives you the damage buff for 6 seconds and allows you to throw on a garrote. I recommend this.
For all rogue dps on sustained fights tricks of the trade is your best friend. If there is more and one rogue in the group i recommend setting up a ToTT rotation and have other rogues use the buff on your ever time its up and you in turn use it on another rogue. If threat becomes an issue though just keep it on the tank. Living is always first priority.
--Glyphs Specs Etc.--
Assassination spec 3.1
This spec has stayed pretty much the same. The only change is using Master Poisoner over Turn the tables. For glyphs your going to want Hunger for Blood, Mutilate, and Rupture.
»talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogue=0···ion=9767
Combat spec 3.1
Huge improvements came for combat spec in 3.1. Hybrid Fist/Sword, Mace/Sword specs are no longer viable. You want two of the same weapons in hand. The spec has gotten a lot tighter with the added haste to Elusiveness. You HAVE to get the three points in elusiveness and this leaves only one extra combo point to play around with. I recommend getting either Throwing spec or Endurance. Either choice is your preference and it doesn't affect your overall dps. Also for now the best dps spec is dropping three points in Ruthlessness and putting those into imp poisons because of the high proc chance of wound from your slow MH weapon and the damage from DP being increased. For Glyphs your going to want, Sinister Strike, Killing Spree, and Rupture or SnD if your newer to the rotation its your choice.
18/51/2
»talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogue=0···ion=9767
HaT 3.1
Hat spec has stayed exactly the same from 3.09 and it is still the best single target rogue dps. Although it depends heavy on group make-up this is a good off spec for any rogue with a slow MH fist weapon. HaT spec is going to want to glyph Eviscerate, Rupture, and Slice and Dice.
»www.wowhead.com/?talent#fhfZ0gc0···VzAc:kuf
Trash DPS for those who care
As far as maximizing you overall damage your gonna want the slowest weapons possible in both hands for fan of knives damage, tricks of the trade is paramount. I recommend getting the macro for ToTT on your Target, Focus, or Target of target in case you forget to focus the main tank before trash it will save your life. For daggers Sinister Revenge x2 and for those without daggers you want slow fist weapons in both hands. There is an easy weapon switch macro that allows you to put on two slow weapons for trash pulls. Remember though, switching weapons resets your global cool down so i do not recommend doing it in the middle of constant damage. If there is a boss that has downtime to run to another set of adds though, by all means switch weapons but remember to switch back afterwards. Instant poison for mutilate or Wound poison for combat should be applied to both hands if you are using a second set of weapons. Combat spec can maximize damage with killing spree and blade flurry. If you want to MAX dps on trash then use your second spec with glyph of fan of knives and for mutilate blow cold blooded at the point when there are the maximum amount of mobs on screen. The importance of trash dps is debatable but for some raid groups it is very important and in Ulduar i recommend bringing your "A" game for all encounters, boss and mob alike.
ToTT Macro for your focus target
/cast [target=focus,help] Tricks of the Trade
Weapon switch macro
/equipslot 17 [Insert weapon name here]
Reverse this to your usual weapon and make another button to switch back
Final Thoughts, last tips, etc..
Using potions of speed and flask is highly recommended. Timing potions is very important. Save if for when you need to really do the most DPS. For bosses with damage modifiers (Malygos). Save it for the time when you are going to do the most damage. For food you can short yourself a few points on a stat and then make it up with a food buff. Although i recommend getting all caps through gear in case you die and have to be battle rezzed, its still an option though. I cannot stress the importance of Tricks of the trade. In my opinion its the best level 80 ability added to rogues in WotLK. Saving ToTT for when your about to do the most damage on un-aggroed mobs will keep you alive and in turn give you the most out of your dps. Cloak of the shadows through shit on the ground and vanish if you pull threat. If vanish is down then evasion tank if you have to. Never and i mean NEVER depend on evasion though. Ive been caught with my pants down more and enough times to know that evasion is busted when it comes to bosses and high level mobs. A boss will tear off your arms and beat you to death with them in front of your closest friends and family. So far all three specs offer different situational things for DPS. HaT for single target dps, combat for dynamic motion and fights that have multiple mobs at one time, and assassination for high single target dps and insane trash dps. In the end choose what ever spec you like to play. Rogues are one of the few classes that have been blessed with three very viable PvE specs. Whether your wielding daggers, fist, or even swords, GO OUT THERE AND TOP SOME METERS!
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»www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/8/8/ | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25
| Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 Maximizing Rogue DPS 3.1 pt 2
Razorscale & Constructor
With the added dual spec feature and rogue having the three possible raid specs its important to know what spec to choose for certain fights to do maximum dps. Although i recommend using Combat and Mutilate, HaT performs well for certain fights.
--Razorscale 25--
12.6 million health
Spec Advantage
Combat > HaT = Mutilate
A. Three phase fight
1. Phase one waves of trash
2. Phase 2 is temporary ground phase
3. Phase 3 is the OMGWTFGOGOGOALLOUT!!!
B. As a rogue abilities to watch out for
1. Whirlwind from the adds
2. Blue fire on the ground
3. Wing buffet and of course stay away from the front
of razorscale
A couple nights ago my guild did razorscale and although I had to log for work before the downing, i did get in a few good attempts and picked up this fight. Here are some basic tips that I can pass on from a rogues perspective.
For the first part in the first few attempts I threw tricks of the trade on the tank on our side and went to town on the adds. Turns out that the Darkrune Senitals have a whirlwind that hits HARD. Needless to say i was two shotted by the whirlwind and after that i learned to stay back. Second attempt I treated the packs of mobs similar to the ones in the Deathknight wing of Naxx. Evasion did work against the whirl wind and i found that the Dark Rune Watchers did not whirl wind so i picked them off of the off tank one by one. Its important to kick the chain lightning that they cast. Blade flurry was helpful along with tricks of the trade for pumping out some extra numbers. Cloak of shadows was also put to good use to avoid the blue fires that were on the ground. its important to remember to just pace your dps here. This is more about surviving. Staying alive is top priority.
After phase one was over Razorscale drops to the ground and you have some time to lay into him. Immediately when he hits the ground blow your cooldowns and go to work. Make sure and stay behind him cause of the flame breath. Go all out here. After some time on the ground he will fly back up. When hes in the air its the same as before. Avoid the whirlwind adds and stick to interrupting the Watchers.
After razorscale reaches 50% he will drop to the ground for good. This is where rogues really shine. Its good ol' fashion tank and spank here. If your raid blew heroism early then blow your Haste potion here. Some of your cooldowns should be back around by this time. If you have any ability to do more damage this is when you use it. Save sprint for the wing buffet to get back into DPS as fast as possible. Stick to your rotations and you should come out successful.
--Tips--
Although all three specs have potential to do well on this fight, to me Razorscale just screams Combat spec. It has so many elements that benefit combat spec. Killing spree + Blade Flurry on the trash, Adrenaline Rush on the ground phases. The breaks in sustained dps give enough time for your cooldowns to come around more than once so you can go ALL OUT when it counts most. Stick to your rotation and theres no reason that you wont come out on top.
--XT-002 Deconstructor 25--
25 million health o.0
To me this fight seems like a mix between Void Reaver and High Astromancer. This is THE ROGUE FIGHT. I say again if you are a rogue and you arent in at least the top 3 damage at the end of this fight, then you need to read back to page 1 of the guide.
Spec Advantage
HaT > Mutilate = Combat
A. Two phase fight
1. Phase one is just tank and spank the boss, watch
threat and trade tricks with another rogue if you can
2. Phase two is also tank in spank but you will target
the bosses Heart as he squats down. Pop cooldowns or
speed potions here.
B. As a rogue abilities to watch out for
1. Gravity Bomb - This is the part thats is like
Astromancer, RUN OUT! Stop what your doing and book
it to a safe area then drop the bomb and go back in.
2. Light Bomb - When this is cast on you RUN! Get as far
away as you can and then resume dps with the debuff
drops away.
This is the big tank and spank fight of ulduar with a twist. Phase one is simple, your tank will tank him at the bottom of the stairs. Open up and save your cooldowns for phase 2. Every once in awhile he will do a ground pound that does AoE damage. Stay in and the healers will take care of you for this. Every 25% of health the boss will enter phase 2.
During phase 2 he will expose his heart. DPS should go all out during this part unless the raid leader doesnt want to engage hardmode and tells you to slow down dps. Otherwise, blow cooldowns and go to work on the heart.
--Tips--
You can use Cloak of shadows on the two debuffs. When cloak of shadows is on cooldown then your going to want to use sprint to get aways as fast as possible. Make sure not to go out of range of your healers. I think HaT spec is the highest dps on this fight. Although a good HaT rogue can throw up some massive numbers, both of the other specs can do just fine. As a rogue there is no reason that you wont be top 3 DPS here with any spec.
Stay tuned for more guides and ill try to get some video if i get the chance to stick around for the downing of a boss for once.
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»www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/8/8/ | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25
2 edits | Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 --Flame Leviathan 25--
70 million health! @.@
This is the first fight in Ulduar and this boss has to be completed in order to gain access to any of the other bosses. Make sure and throw on your highest level items if you are a vehicle driver. Dont worry about how good the gear is. A few rogues in our guild have some epic cloth peices just for this fight. If you are going to be launched on top of the Leviathan then still keep your normal raid gear on. As a rogue you will most likely driving a chopper, if not then you will be one of the players launched onto the back of the Flame Leviathan to DPS down the Turrets.
Spec Advantages
Spec deep into imp vehicles
A. One phase fight
1. If your are in a vehicle you will most likely be inside of a Salvaged Chopper. Watch your HP drop oil
2. Most likely the rogues will be one of the players launched onto Flame Leviathan.
B. As a rogue abilities to watch out for
1. As a chopper you want to stay out of the flame vents that light the oil.
2. Save your Speed boost for after you drop Tar between Leviathan and one of the tanks.
This is the easiest fight in Ulduar. Once the fight begins you will either be driving a vehicle or a passenger in a vehicle waiting to be launched onto Flame Leviathan. Once you launch you will have to DPS down a Turret and then press the button to stall the Flame Leviathan. Make sure and wait till hes on a patch of Oil/Fire to increase the damage done to him.
--Tips--
When you come off of the flame leviathan make sure to hit the ground moving. You want to get as far away from the action as possible. When your riding shotgun in a Salvaged Demolisher make sure to use your abilities to the fullest. Above all, for a vehicle fight, this is one of the funnest fights there is. There is no pressure, any decent group can down this boss so just turn off your meters and have a good time.
--Emalon the Storm Watcher 25--
11.2 Million hp
This is the new boss in the Vault. The original boss in vault, Archavon, was a huge push over. This boss though is turning out to be a little more difficult. You might want to bring the guild on this one because the average pug is gonna fail. For a rogue though this fight is very simple. With some well timed Cloak Of shadows and proper usage of cooldowns you will come out on top.
Spec Advantage
Combat>Mutilate>HaT
A. One phase fight
1. 1 boss 4 adds, this fight sort of reminds me of grand widow in the sense that is all about timing.
B. As a rogue abilities to watch out for
1. Chain lightning, the only way to avoid this is to stay farther away from other melee dps.
2. Lightning nova - This about a 5 second cast and does damage depending on the range away from the boss.
This fight takes a simple concept and adds a pretty shard DPS timer on it. When you start this pull off the tanks will seperate the adds from emalon. Wherever you are DPSing Emalon you need to turn your camera toward the adds and just click both mouse buttons so that you can get a jump on everyone when the adds are about to enrage. By all means do as much damage possible on Emalon but save you cooldowns for the adds. When emalon cast Lightning Nova use your Cloak Of Shadows and you can resist one. When he cast it again you can sprint to get out faster and get back into combat faster. When i said timing is important i mean it. When he enrages one of the adds you have to be paramount to run over and start popping cooldowns to down that add as fast as possible. If you are HaT spec you can get in some extra DPS by getting shadow step. It is completely optional to get, but in mobile fights it can make a difference and the damage increase is not bad either. After he enrages the adds and you kill one, you will go back to normal dps on Emalon until he is dead. I cannot stress how simple of a concept this is and how easy of a fight this is for a rogue. The difference between this fight and the old Vault boss, is huge because you need most everyone alive or your DPS is going to have to be geared to the teeth to survive.
--Tips--
Heres a tip for this fight, CLOAK OF SHADOWS OR RUN OUT OF LIGHTNING NOVA! No but i gave combat spec a significant advantage over both other specs for this fight because of the situational DPS requirement when killing the adds. You want to have Adrenaline Rush + Blade Flurry (to pad the meters on a non-enraged add) to put out some extreme dps during that time. Mutilate however can do well also and HaT here has a chance to do ok. | |
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B547C
@mchsi.com | At the moment the only weapons I have is Sinister revenge and 2 LPCS. I am using Mut raid spec which weapons should I be using and where. Not sure im understanding you on the subject in Assassination Spec 3.1
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25
1 edit | Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 You should be using Sinister revenge in your MH with instant poison on it and then LPC in your OH with deadly. If you can get a slower dagger though or at least one with better stats. LPC got a huge nerf with the PPM changes to poisons although the procs from focused attacks will be nice. The Sons of Hodir sells alot better dagger than LPC.
EDIT: Also alot better dagger drops in H HoS called The Flesh shaper. Aim for webbed death from Anub Rekan in 25 man naxx also. The best setup minus ulduar daggers is Sinister Revenge for MH and Webbed Death OR a Second sinister revenge for OH. | |
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Krisnatharok
0311 Scout
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Sterling, VA | Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 You all are so freaking boring at nights. pff. | |
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crytz
join:2009-03-17 | Nice write up there Critsmcgee! I use combat/Hat for my spec's, so far I'm loving combat spec, HaT is a little harder to get used to because of the fluctuation of CP's.
Crytz/smolderthorn Horde side if anyone wants to armory me. | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25
| Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 Yea i have SRx2 so im still rocking mutilate and combat with my KTs reach. If i get better daggers i will stay mut but if i get a new fist then i will go combat HaT. People are talking combat pvp viable too. I seen the spec and it looks promising. 5% parry 5% dodge riposte and alot of survivability with killing spree for burst. Seems like it scould make a comback. | |
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lolwuthenry
join:2009-03-18
| Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 said by Critsmcgee  :Yea i have SRx2 so im still rocking mutilate and combat with my KTs reach. If i get better daggers i will stay mut but if i get a new fist then i will go combat HaT. People are talking combat pvp viable too. I seen the spec and it looks promising. 5% parry 5% dodge riposte and alot of survivability with killing spree for burst. Seems like it scould make a comback. So yea. pvp combat is actually completey viable if you spec correctly.. i actually used this a bit prior to 3.1 it really only works best in 2v2. and some bg situations.
but yea. in 2v2 vs 2 melee players your team will completely faceroll them if you (the rogue) are combat spec atleast 51 points....
also. im currently mutalate but i won the oh fist off flame 10 man. and it is prety ridiclious. but i have to stay combat seeing as i do not own a mh fist >. i stopped doing 10 man naxx. a while back. soo dont even bother with that mh. and io havent been able to win my CG off 25 kt yet.
so yea in case you havent noticed. all "non retarted rogue's should be in top 5 dps as long as they have naxx 10+ gear. i mean im usually #1 dps. with any group i go to. a good friend of mine usually pulls 6k+ in all raids 10-25. its prety insane. we got completely buffed for pve atm. where as im pulling 4k+ in every boss fight. 3k+ without even trying... | |
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B547C
@mchsi.com | Thanks! I'll check out Sons of Hodir. | |
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pr1mo
Premium
join:2003-11-12
Harwood Heights, IL | comeback? lol when was combat ever a viable pvp spec... | |
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AthlGrond
Premium,MVM
join:2002-04-25
Aurora, CO
 ·Comcast
| Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 said by pr1mo :comeback? lol when was combat ever a viable pvp spec... Are you kidding? Repost used to be able to disarm people!
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I'm not a tax dodger, I'm a potential cabinet appointee! | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25
1 edit | said by pr1mo :comeback? lol when was combat ever a viable pvp spec... Maces + Adrenaline Rush = Win
This was the setup that rogues used to run with mainly at the beggining of BC. It was op when maces would stun.
EDIT taken straight for wow wiki level 70 builds:
AR/Prep - 0/31/30 - PvP
This was "THE" build of 2.3. Post-2.3.2 this build is less attractive because AR was removed from Prep. Maces are the key to this build with the added mace stun effect. This was also a solid build before the hemo buff of Patch 2.3, and many used it with SS. If you do choose to move some points and use SS as your primary attack instead of hemo, picking up Blade Twisting for the daze effect would be wise. Improved Kick for the silence is also a nice bonus. | |
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crytz
join:2009-03-17 | Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 Yes, those were the days, if only blizz wouldn't have made mace's useless! | |
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crytz
join:2009-03-17
·Comcast
| I just realized they were going to change mace spec to be much better then it is now, I wonder why they reverted back to the way it is now? Maybe it was OP?
* Hunger for Blood – instead of a self-buff, this ability can only be used when there is a bleed effect on the target. However, it has no stacks and grants a 15% damage bonus.
* Adrenaline Rush – the cooldown on this ability has been lowered.
* Lightning Reflexes – reduced to 3 ranks. In addition to 2/4/6% dodge, this talent now also grants 4/7/10% passive melee haste.
* Killing Spree – while this ability is active, the rogue does 20% additional damage.
* Savage Combat – now causes 2/4% physical damage done.
* Mace Specialization – this talent now grants haste in addition to armor penetration. | |
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Vmoney86
@cox.net
| Really nice information here guys. One question as far as weapons I have Anarchy/WD and Silent Crusader/WD all of which have mongoose except anarchy. To push Max dps would it be better to stay as mutilate which I have been since expansion or switch to combat?
Thanks | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25 | Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 Stay mutilate and get mongoose on anarchy. You cant do Sword dagger or hybrid specs with combat any more. | |
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Benty
join:2008-01-30
Durham, NC | yeap, made me sad. Haste+AP would probably have put combat too far ahead of Mut spec. Or maybe the just stuck the haste part in to LR instead. If the haste was in LR and mace spec that would be pretty crazy with posions on PPM procs | |
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Dropper
join:2008-09-18
Anchorage, AK
| All I know is my dps went up between 500-1000 after the patch, depending on whether the fight was tank and spank (patchwerk) or you had to move around a bit (dance revolution).
The changes to combat were all good and finally put the spec somewhere close to mutilate. 10% extra damage just using up the talents points you needed to waste in something like improved sprint or kick in order to get to the next stage in the talent tree? Yes please.
As for poisons, elitist jerks had it mapped out a long time back, and I guess they'll do the same (or maybe have already) for the changes. They do it by spec and by weapon speed usually and I think most people know they're anal enough in their research to guarantee good results. | |
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| Sithra
join:2008-02-07 | Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 Rogue are definitely back on top now. 6k dps on boss encounters, 7k on XT and 7.5k on Hodir, yes please. | |
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crytz
join:2009-03-17
1 edit | Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 So I assume you guys are having flasks and food buffs right? Which ones do you use normally? Besides the obvious flask of endless rage =) | |
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join:2008-02-07 | Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 Endless rage and fish feast | |
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lolwuthenry
join:2009-03-18
| I roll with the 180 ap one. always have 10+ on me. and i use the haste pot. the 15 second one. lvl 70 idk how much haste >. but yea i keep atleast 10+ of those on me too. 
I've also bee wondering if you can find scrolls of agi or something for really cheap i wonder if that would imp dps at all lmao. most likely not but i was just thinking of that the other day hehe.
oooh and for buff food i usually use the ap or crit one. or fish feast | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25
| Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 Yea thats pretty badass. Rogues got wild again. I feel like i felt during BC. Now when i pop cooldowns i take control of the meters and rise to the top. Before even when i was doing my rotations perfect i was still 3-5 in dps. Now when i do my rotations perfect im always number 1. Feels nice to be rewarded with knowing how to play. | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25 | Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 I been hearing alot about the armor pen food being really good to use if you have a decent amount of AP. | |
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join:2008-02-07 | You've neglected to mention Feint on both the XT and Ignis fights.
We're 10 bosses down now, Thorim really slowed us down! | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25
| Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 I guess i did fail to mention that. Since Ulduar came out ive had such bad lag out here. I usually get on at raid time. Get into ulduar for 3-4 attempts then start lagging out so bad that i opt to sit out and hear the downing over vent. After last night im starting a break. Its pretty sad to flock to the internet place every night eith no hopes of your connection holding through the first 4 attempts. Im gonna try to level my running back up until i come back from this deploy. | |
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Dropper
join:2008-09-18
Anchorage, AK
| Until this patch came out, if you spec'd combat you could use 45 agi flasks and 40 agi stamina food and you wouldn't see one less dps than those spec'd the same and used the more expensive stuff.
Thank god they fixed that. I'd feel guilty every time someone thought they were doing me a favour and handed me a 65g flask in the middle of a raid. | |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228
| Ok I have a combat rogue, combat spec, but I use Eviscerate in my rotation, I was wondering if the 10% Crit from Glyph plus the points you set in damage in talents will do more damage than the DoT Rupture? (with 10% tier set bonus)
Because I rarely use Rupture, because I've been told that DoTs don't crit! (correct me if I'm wrong). So a Rupture will only do the 5K dmg Talented/buffed over time, instead of an instant 10K dmg from Eviscerante.
Still with this rotation I'm top DPS in my guild, doing almost 5.5K on Razorscale and 6K on XT (haven't advance any further to try Hodir).
My slow Main is "Calamitie's Grasp" and "murder" as OH hand, I do MH Instant and OH deadly poisons.
Any advise for my buid? (djlar, quel'thalas server) | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25
| Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 You should never use evis over rupture. Its nice to see the HUGE numbers and i dont doubt that it crits alot. You are underestimating rupture though. It does more than 5000 damage. It is increased by attack power. I dont know the formula right off the top of my head but its more than 5000. Without the 4 set bonus no rupture wont crit. Tell me what you think your buffed raid AP is and ill see if i can get the formula to see how much damage your rupture will leak out with the glyph and the 2 set im assuming. | |
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crytz
join:2009-03-17
·Comcast
1 edit | said by djlar :Ok I have a combat rogue, combat spec, but I use Eviscerate in my rotation, I was wondering if the 10% Crit from Glyph plus the points you set in damage in talents will do more damage than the DoT Rupture? (with 10% tier set bonus) Because I rarely use Rupture, because I've been told that DoTs don't crit! (correct me if I'm wrong). So a Rupture will only do the 5K dmg Talented/buffed over time, instead of an instant 10K dmg from Eviscerante. Still with this rotation I'm top DPS in my guild, doing almost 5.5K on Razorscale and 6K on XT (haven't advance any further to try Hodir). My slow Main is "Calamitie's Grasp" and "murder" as OH hand, I do MH Instant and OH deadly poisons. Any advise for my buid? (djlar, quel'thalas server) Why wouldnt you max out your prey on the weak, and why put 1 point in unfair advantage instead, when your pve'ing and hardly ever get focused on? Other then that your spec is up to par with most combat specs except you use evis instead of rupture.
I think most good rogues should be on top or towards the top of dps meters now adays. I've been pulling comparable numbers around 5k+ as well. | |
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Grantly
@enmaxenvision.net
| From my understanding the 10% evis crit glyph hasn't been useful since the HaT bug. I'm hearing some people put killing spree glyph over S&D glyph since 3.1 though. The standard seems to be sin strike/rupture/S&D.
The only time you should think about sneaking in a evis is if you have more than 10 seconds left on both S&D and rupture. Also if there is no warrior applying sunder you wanna use expose armor over evis. (they have changed sunder and expose armor to both do 20%) | |
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| Sithra
join:2008-02-07 | Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 Rupture will do slightly less than a crit eviscerate, but unless you have a something like 70% eviscerate crit chance rupture will be better overall, even before you factor in the 10 less energy it costs. | |
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JIGA
Its A Bird, Its A Plane, Its..
Premium
join:2002-02-02
Azle, TX
clubs:
1 edit | Your talent preview site is blocked for me. I'm curious to see what your 18/51/2 setup looks like. If you can, could you take a screenshot of the page and post it?
15/51/5 has been the preferred combat build for majority of combat Rogues. | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25 | Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 15/51/5 is debatable to use but 18/51/2 is also good if you drop those three points in imp poisons. The increased damage from poisons will make up for the difference. | |
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AthlGrond
Premium,MVM
join:2002-04-25
Aurora, CO
·Comcast
| Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1
18/51/2 |
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I'm not a tax dodger, I'm a potential cabinet appointee! | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25 | Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 Thats a perfect spec for raids right there. Right now that is debatably the highest dps spec over 5 points in relentless strikes. The two raid specs are so close though that you wont see the difference over the course of a usual boss fight. | |
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JIGA
Its A Bird, Its A Plane, Its..
Premium
join:2002-02-02
Azle, TX
clubs:
·Charter Pipeline
| Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 said by Critsmcgee :Thats a perfect spec for raids right there. Right now that is debatably the highest dps spec over 5 points in relentless strikes. The two raid specs are so close though that you wont see the difference over the course of a usual boss fight. Thats what I read over at elitistjerks website. They stated 15/51/5 was top and that 18/51/2 was comparable in DPS for combat builds. The old spec of (can't remember exact spec) Serrated Blades didn't add up like it use to pre 3.1 | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25 | Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 7/51/13 i think it was, with three point in serrated blades. that one is a no-go now. | |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228
| Being the only rogue in the guild I sacrificed 2 pts on Throwing spec to interrupt the casters 100% with Fan of Knives.
I think I misplaced a point there but I was getting 100 interrupts a fight with razorscale (30% to lighting chain).
With that we can use one less healer or if a healer drops to fireballs.
Now our problem is DPSing Razorscale which I was #1 with 5.6K.
Now about weapon enchants and hit rating..
Weapon: +65 permanent AP or chance to increase with Berserker? basically with perm 130 AP, and if I enchant Berserker on both, will they stack? Some say Berserker main and mongoose OH is good. (but it's a 1500g "test" I'm now willing to take until confirmed)
I'm 512 Hit right now, could I lose 16 hit on one slot to add +32 AP? since several things scale with AP.. or use a piece of gear with more AP and Expertise over hit, I maybe drop to 485. | |
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AthlGrond
Premium,MVM
join:2002-04-25
Aurora, CO
·Comcast
| Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 said by djlar :Being the only rogue in the guild I sacrificed 2 pts on Throwing spec to interrupt the casters 100% with Fan of Knives. I think I misplaced a point there but I was getting 100 interrupts a fight with razorscale (30% to lighting chain). I've had a question on that talent: Does it interrupt all casters hit, or just your target?
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I'm not a tax dodger, I'm a potential cabinet appointee! | |
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| | djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228
| Interrupt with FoK interrupts any interruptable target withing range, tested it out on Kel'Thuzad and it works there, tried heroic nexus, it works on the caster boss split clones wonderfully..
BTW I was #1 DPS on:
25 men
Pathcwerk
Grobbulus
Gluth
Thaddious
Sapphiron
Kel'Thuzad
OS 25
Malygos 25 (I had to use every measure to drop aggro!)
I was on the 5.5K and above mark, and at least 1.5% better than the closest Deeps, this time was an uber geared mage.
DK's have dropped DPS consideraly now poor souls got the nerf bat, they were usually on top.
Still I am not noticing any DPS increase in improved Rupture Vs. Improved Eviscerate | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25
| Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 I gotta look into imp evis VS rupture. Im thinking that the 4 set bonus for t8 is what really helps rupture damage be on top. You might be on to something though with using Evis atm. Even when an evis doesnt crit it can still do 5-6k damage. Ive had some freak o.0 crits too. No to mention sometimes i drop a rupture on a target that dies before the full ticks expire and i guess that could be considered a considerable loss of damage. | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25
| Berserking is the best enchant for weapons if you can afford it. Only get berserking on something good though. You can have alot less hit. Try going at about 350 if you have that much to throw around. You can get ALOT more ap and you will hit like a truck, your DP, and WP will tick harder too. | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25
| --Ignis the furnace master 25--
19.6 Million Health
Spec Advantage
HaT>Mutilate>Combat
A. One phase fight
1. Reminds me of Grobbulous, high motion fight
B. As a rogue abilities to watch out for
1. Slag pot - deals 5000 dps on you over 10 seconds while in the slag pot
2. Flame Jets - massive AoE damage
Ignis, oh ignis. This guy is an interesting fight for healers. For rogues he is rather lackluster though. He reminds me of Grobb. The main thing i can say about ignis is that you want to stay behind him at all times. The tank will keep him moving because of the scorched earth he will leave behind.
At the start of this fight the tank will pull him and usually do some sort of small oval or square kiting path to keep from standing in the scorched earth. Every once in awhile he will stomp the ground and do flame jets that toss everyone into the air and do a lot of AoE damage to the raid. As tempting as it is to let off Cloak of shadows here, if you are surviving the flame jets then save cloak of shadows. Just like grobbs injection he will target one player at a time and put him in his Slag pot. During this time that player will take 5000dps for 10 seconds. As a rogue as soon as you enter slag pot let off cloak of shadows. This will save you from taking too much damage and yor healers should have no problem healing you for the last 4 seconds of it.
Like grobb this fight depends heavy on placement. If you are in front of ignis at the wrong time then there is a good chance you will get roasted to a crisp. STAY BEHIND IGNIS!! If you are staying behind and keeping your timing up on him then dps is pretty standard. Stick to your rotation because there is nothing to this fight but surviving.
--Tips--
If you find yourself in the slag pot and your cloak of shadows is on cooldown then when you get out (if you survive) you will have the haste buff for 10 seconds. If you pop a haste pot during this time then you will do a massive amount of damage over those 10 seconds. If youve already popped your haste pot then just dps as normal and enjoy the damage.
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»www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/8/8/ | |
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Dropper
join:2008-09-18
Anchorage, AK
3 edits | 512 hit sounds like some insane attempt to cap white damage. Don't, you'll never reach over 700 hit. The poison hit cap of 315 is good enough. There's no down side to having more, as long as it's not at the expense of anything else, but you can get rid of as many 16 hit gems as you want and replace them with 8 agi / 8 crit or 16 ap / 8 crit. There's no real difference, just get whatever is the cheaper of the two.
Berserking as Crit said is by far the best enchant for rogues. When you get a set of weapons you can't envisage changing for a few months, save up abyss crystals and get berserking for both. Until then you can make do with mongoose (if your enchanter still has the mats) or even potency (50 ap) while you save up your pennies.
The 15/51/5 and 18/51/2 are almost indistinguishable from each other, I've tried both. I go with the second because I can't be bothered to spend another 50g on yet one more respec.
Glyphs. Rupture, S&D and Sin Strike are the best. If you can't find a Rupture (seems to be difficult to get on some servers for some reason) grab an extra 5s of Adrenaline Rush. Not as good but it will do until you can get the rupture glyph. Eviscerate is only for times when you've hit 5 combo pts, already have your rupture applied and you still have at least 12s of S&D. Otherwise you re-apply S&D.
Exercise in Fail
Friend of mine spent 1000g on dual spec, set it up with Combat and Mutilate to see which was better. I was forced to remind him that as his fist weapon was mainhand only.
The bad part is he'd put the berserking enchant on both his weapons. He could have dropped the fist weapon for another dagger but now needs to save up for a 3rd berserking enchant to do it. | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25
| Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 As mutilate ive been looking at a ruptureless spec without deadly poisons. I was looking at stacking armor pen, taking glyph of evis and then going instant, instant, with two slow daggers and relying on armor pen for high white damage. Its prolly garbage but still armor pen has been getting alot more desirable these days. | |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228 | I'm only finding rupture useful on bosses that move a lot, like Grobbulus, Heigan, Malygos, etc.. | |
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Dropper
join:2008-09-18
Anchorage, AK
1 edit | Rupture is the second most important finishing move after slice n dice.
There's a reason why it doesn't crit unless you have a 4-set bonus T8 (and therefore fighting the toughest bosses in the game) and that's because it would be op if it did.
The thing is it scales with AP, which is why it's so important to have things like the Darkmoon Card Greatness (equiv to 190 AP during fights) and berserking on at least one weapon.
Elistist jerks are the people who do the math. They are anal beyond belief and that means their website is where you go to get real information.
If they say you should use slice n dice / rupture with eviscerates when your slice n dice timer has 10s or more, then that's what you should do to maximise your dps.
Their numbers are worked using best in slot gear. That doesn't mean you HAVE to own that gear, it means you should use that gear as a guide. If they have a leg piece with agility, stam and hit rating, you get a leg piece with agility, stam and hit rating - even if it's a blue while you wait for a decent drop.
If they say use two fast daggers for mutilate they mean use two fast daggers even if your offhand is a blue because of it (they actually say this, that the weapon speed for the mainhand/offhand is more important than stats on the weapon or epic vs rare).
When they say use a slow fist weapon or sword in your MH and a fast dagger in your OH for combat then that's what you should do.
This is simply about getting the most DPS you can out of a spec. If that's not a major concern for you, then you do as you like and enjoy the game in the way you prefer to. | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25
| Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 I agree with most of the stuff off of EG. Still i take caution to some of the user post. People also fail to believe that EG math is done on a controlled scale. People look at EG and shadowpanther as absolutes. Overall dps on a patchwerk style fight, yes. Other fights have alot more variables and you have to take that into account before you just look at a spreadsheet.
For instance i said something about using mark of the norgannon or a "use" trinket for certain fights as mutilate is good and every bashed it because they all looked at their spread sheets. Mutilate is the cooldownless spec, so throwing a CD trinket on for fights like Razorscale is good imo. Half of the fight is trash dps and the only part of the fight where you really are gonna get in some DPS is during the ground phases. This is when i think on use trinkets gain alot more value.
To sum up what im trying to say, you have to take EG and shadowpanther as tools to help you use your own common sense to choose the best gear. There is nothing out there to tell you exactly how to play your character in every situation. | |
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| Sithra
join:2008-02-07
| said by Dropper :If they have a leg piece with agility, stam and hit rating, you get a leg piece with agility, stam and hit rating - even if it's a blue while you wait for a decent drop. That's not true. It doesn't matter which item the stats on, as long as the balance between the stats is correct.
EG is Elitist Gerks I presume? | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25
| Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 Yea BiS or Best in Slot gear is debatable for every person. There is always a full optimal set for THE MOST dps, but most people wont get that out of ulduar with the defficulty of the hard modes. At least not for some time at least. If you are under the hit cap them something like grim toll will be BiS for you. | |
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mingu
@sdsu.edu | heard for combat that you were to use do on main hand and so on off if your offhand was 1.3 speed or faster like librarians cutter. Heard this from elitist jerks. Is this true? | |
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mingu
@sdsu.edu | meant deadly for mh and wound for offhand | |
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Critsmcgee
Premium
join:2009-02-25
1 edit | Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 Why would you want wound poison on your fast OH? Did you read about the PPM change to poisons? A slow weapon will proc poisons about the same speed as a fast weapon now, BUT poisons will only proc off of MH finishers: like rupture, and eviscerate. I dont see a reason you would want wound poisons on our OH weapon for combat spec. | |
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Dropper
join:2008-09-18
Anchorage, AK
4 edits | Before the 3.1 patch there was a guide to which poison to put on which weapon, depending on your offhand weapon speed.
This only applied to combat spec'd rogues. If your weapon speed (as shown on the character page after haste improvements) was 1.4 or less you used it one way, if it was slower than 1.4 you did the opposite.
But that is irrelevant now as poison's chance to hit has changed. It is now always deadly on offhand, wound poison on mainhand. Your chance to poison increases with the speed of your weapon, therefore you want deadly on your fastest weapon.
I actually use instant poison on my mainhand because I don't follow these things precisely. I just seem to get more out of instant poison than I do from wound poison. Maybe it's because I'm not as good as other players, I don't really care.
And yes, the bit about the Libarian Cutter was true. It was because the faster weapon meant more hits and therefore more poison procs. What I don't know is if this thinking is still correct, but as it's a fast offhand weapon it does still make this an ideal offhand until you get something like Anarchy or better. | |
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AthlGrond
Premium,MVM
join:2002-04-25
Aurora, CO
·Comcast
| Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 said by Dropper :And yes, the bit about the Libarian Cutter was true. It was because the faster weapon meant more hits and therefore more poison procs. What I don't know is if this thinking is still correct, but as it's a fast offhand weapon it does still make this an ideal offhand until you get something like Anarchy or better. The fast off-hand is to get Combat Potency procs (and still is). That you got more poison applications is a side effect.
Only wound and instant poisons are weapon speed independent, the others haven't changed. (Unless they were changed outside of the announced changes.)
said by 3.1 patch notes :
•Deadly Poison: The amount of damage this poison generates from the rogue’s attack power has been increased from 8% per application to 12%.
•Instant Poison: Redesigned to have its chance to be applied based on the speed of the weapon (frequency-based).
•Wound Poison: Redesigned to have its chance to be applied based on the speed of the weapon (frequency-based).
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I'm not a tax dodger, I'm a potential cabinet appointee! | |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228 | I've seen a rogue with the Headless Horseman lvl 70 sword in the offhand... I was like what? and he's mutilate with a fast fist MH.
Well he's 2300 dps while I'm 4K+ figures.. | |
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AthlGrond
Premium,MVM
join:2002-04-25
Aurora, CO | Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 Wow, I didn't even notice that mutilate no longer requires daggers.
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I'm not a tax dodger, I'm a potential cabinet appointee! | |
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| | Sithra
join:2008-02-07
| Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 said by AthlGrond :Wow, I didn't even notice that mutilate no longer requires daggers. Er, it does. | |
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crytz
join:2009-03-17
1 edit | If mutilate didnt require daggers you'd see 8-10k dps rogues out there and 2 shotting people in pvp. | |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228
| Well this rogue was a guildie, I sold him the sword of jin I got from heroic instance trash mobs, he respecced combat, how he's weareing Anub's fist weapon and the sword, his dps is up as I told him so...
Last night at Leviathan we got a DPS ring drop, but it has like 80 Str, 80 Stam, Armor Pen rating and hit rating..
I wish str was 2 AP as other classes but str is only 1 to 1 for rogues.. I had to pass on taht ring (ilevel 216) | |
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crytz
join:2009-03-17 | Re: Maximizing Rogue DPS for 3.1 Yeah if you roll on Strn gear against warriors/plate guys your bad. | |
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