  CharterRoutes
@charter.com
| [HSI] Has charter created a national backbone?
So I was doing some traces today after noticing a stabilization in speed, and I noticed traffic to www.google.com and www.facebook.com going on a totally new route. This is from Tennessee.
Facebook: Goes from charter to facebook's network.
Hop Address Min (ms) Max (ms) Avg (ms) +/- (ms) 1 * 2 static.unknown.charter.com (96.34.68.153) 15.18 43.45 28.65 3 96-34-71-50.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.50) 11.59 25.88 16.96 -11.69 4 96-34-71-48.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.48) 13.39 26.53 18.91 1.95 5 96-34-71-46.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.46) 81.15 207.25 139.79 120.88 6 96-34-71-42.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.42) 22.51 42.04 33.09 -106.71 7 96-34-71-62.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.62) 24.13 35.65 31.46 -1.62 8 96-34-71-103.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.103) 43.84 69.83 56.64 25.17 9 bbr01spbgsc-tge-0-0-0-4.spbg.sc.charter.com (96.34.0.41) 50.06 51.35 50.55 -6.09 10 bbr02spbgsc-tge-0-0-0-2.spbg.sc.charter.com (96.34.0.43) 47.44 50.70 49.22 -1.32 11 bbr01ashbva-tge-0-0-0-4.ashb.va.charter.com (96.34.0.47) 66.28 67.14 66.77 17.55 12 prr01ashbva-tge-1-1.ashb.va.charter.com (96.34.3.13) 66.30 81.87 73.30 6.52 13 ge-2-0-2.br01.iad1.tfbnw.net (204.15.20.160) 66.01 86.51 76.15 2.86 14 xe-3-0-0.br01.ash1.tfbnw.net (204.15.23.111) 66.96 127.84 87.69 11.54 15 te-10-0.csw06b.ash1.tfbnw.net (204.15.20.155) 70.10 94.98 79.02 -8.67 16 www.10.06.ash1.facebook.com (69.63.186.11) 64.26 67.12 66.14 -12.88
Google: Goes from Chater to google's network
Hop Address Min (ms) Max (ms) Avg (ms) +/- (ms) 1 * 2 static.unknown.charter.com (96.34.68.153) 9.54 32.11 20.87 3 96-34-71-50.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.50) 12.28 35.31 26.68 5.80 4 96-34-71-48.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.48) 20.94 27.54 23.59 -3.09 5 96-34-71-46.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.46) 15.80 43.47 25.63 2.04 6 96-34-71-42.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.42) 22.16 26.19 23.89 -1.74 7 96-34-71-62.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.62) 24.36 27.58 25.82 1.93 8 96-34-71-103.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.103) 44.38 56.54 50.68 24.85 9 prr01atlnga-tge-2-1.atln.ga.charter.com (96.34.3.19) 43.20 55.84 48.48 -2.20 10 74.125.51.249 45.78 65.90 53.79 5.31 11 72.14.233.54 44.84 53.34 48.48 -5.31 12 72.14.239.127 44.91 65.59 52.10 3.62 13 209.85.252.102 44.98 66.76 56.36 4.26 14 gy-in-f103.google.com (74.125.157.103) 45.68 60.44 53.33 -3.03
Charer.com: Doesn't go onto level3 or qwest like before
Hop Address Min (ms) Max (ms) Avg (ms) +/- (ms) 1 * 2 static.unknown.charter.com (96.34.68.153) 11.93 33.20 24.70 3 96-34-71-50.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.50) 118.72 204.23 171.69 146.99 4 96-34-71-48.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.48) 14.02 36.53 23.16 -148.53 5 96-34-71-46.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.46) 18.93 75.24 41.62 18.45 6 96-34-71-42.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.42) 24.61 50.65 34.03 -7.59 7 96-34-71-62.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.62) 22.11 37.09 27.28 -6.75 8 96-34-71-103.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.103) 43.71 44.53 44.19 16.92 9 bbr01sghlga-tge-0-0-0-2.sghl.ga.charter.com (96.34.0.38) 42.27 54.76 47.17 2.98 10 bbr01blvlil-tge-0-0-0-4.blvl.il.charter.com (96.34.0.37) 57.71 60.27 58.98 11.81 11 96.34.2.21 59.99 69.64 64.77 5.79 12 static.unknown.charter.com (96.34.48.54) 60.76 70.45 66.83 2.06 13 static.unknown.charter.com (96.34.48.25) 61.89 108.94 88.11 21.28 14 static.unknown.charter.com (24.217.31.253) 68.30 75.27 72.85 -15.26 15 24-217-29-211.static.stls.mo.charter.com (24.217.29.211) 64.48 82.34 73.12 0.27 16 24-217-29-127.static.stls.mo.charter.com (24.217.29.127) 63.53 66.50 64.76 -8.36
Seems like other sites use the same routes as before.
Hop Address Min (ms) Max (ms) Avg (ms) +/- (ms) 1 * 2 static.unknown.charter.com (96.34.68.153) 8.65 12.12 10.26 3 96-34-71-55.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.55) 15.58 19.31 16.86 6.59 4 24-158-96-214.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (24.158.96.214) 14.99 28.72 23.57 6.72 5 12.86.91.73 22.53 23.13 22.87 -0.70 6 cr1.attga.ip.att.net (12.122.141.110) 23.21 33.90 28.27 5.40 7 ggr7.attga.ip.att.net (12.122.81.241) 24.52 37.89 29.21 0.94 8 192.205.35.210 136.22 199.18 170.26 141.05 9 ae-71-52.ebr1.Atlanta2.Level3.net (4.68.103.60) 32.78 53.46 44.40 -125.86 10 ae-63-60.ebr3.Atlanta2.Level3.net (4.69.138.4) 35.46 39.81 37.35 -7.05 11 ae-7.ebr3.Dallas1.Level3.net (4.69.134.21) 72.18 83.88 78.05 40.70 12 ae-93-93.csw4.Dallas1.Level3.net (4.69.136.166) 64.16 72.19 67.76 -10.29 13 ae-92-92.ebr2.Dallas1.Level3.net (4.69.136.149) 53.32 68.47 62.30 -5.46 14 ae-2.ebr1.Denver1.Level3.net (4.69.132.105) 62.95 85.05 73.19 10.89 15 ge-6-0.hsa1.Denver1.Level3.net (4.68.107.3) 63.73 73.54 68.17 -5.01 16 4.68.94.1 63.87 76.70 68.90 0.73 17 www.Level3.com (4.68.95.11) 63.10 86.47 71.40 2.50 |
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  Civrock Premium join:2005-06-25 North Wilkesboro, NC 1 edit | Interesting, haven't seen the hops outside of your local network before in any Charter routing. I'm still stuck with Level3 and Qwest here. |
|
  CharterRoutes
@charter.com
| reply to CharterRoutes Here's some more:
From the speed test list for charter,
Hop Address Min (ms) Max (ms) Avg (ms) +/- (ms) 1 * 2 static.unknown.charter.com (96.34.68.153) 14.09 36.69 24.90 3 96-34-71-50.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.50) 15.81 28.27 21.00 -3.89 4 96-34-71-48.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.48) 15.33 33.39 26.07 5.07 5 96-34-71-46.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.46) 161.45 199.98 183.43 157.35 6 96-34-71-42.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.42) 24.22 33.78 30.12 -153.31 7 96-34-71-62.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.62) 26.27 53.97 36.64 6.52 8 96-34-71-103.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.103) 49.73 52.87 50.84 14.20 9 bbr01sghlga-tge-0-0-0-2.sghl.ga.charter.com (96.34.0.38) 45.56 76.43 59.48 8.65 10 bbr01blvlil-tge-0-0-0-4.blvl.il.charter.com (96.34.0.37) 65.61 69.95 68.30 8.82 11 bbr01olvemo-tge-0-1-0-6.olve.mo.charter.com (96.34.0.14) 59.07 81.21 73.75 5.45 12 bbr02chcgil-tge-0-0-0-4.chcg.il.charter.com (96.34.0.12) 77.49 83.08 81.05 7.30 13 bbr01chcgil-tge-0-0-0-2.chcg.il.charter.com (96.34.0.10) 70.91 73.80 72.33 -8.72 14 bbr02euclwi-tge-0-0-0-4.eucl.wi.charter.com (96.34.0.8) 81.56 91.06 84.77 12.44 15 crr02euclwi-gbe-9-0-0.eucl.wi.charter.com (96.34.2.7) 90.90 95.64 93.24 8.46 16 96.34.16.229 86.87 121.41 101.48 8.24 17 crr01onlswi-gbe-2-0-0.eucl.wi.charter.com (96.34.16.144) 86.34 102.66 91.88 -9.59 18 crr01rochmn-gbe-4-0-0.roch.mn.charter.com (96.34.17.3) 83.26 106.47 95.17 3.28 19 csw01rochmn-gbe-6-2.roch.mn.charter.com (96.34.25.48) 83.87 93.05 87.54 -7.63 20 spt01rochmn.roch.mn.charter.com (24.159.193.25) 84.87 114.34 95.10 7.56
Looks like CA, NV, MA are not linked.
Hop Address Min (ms) Max (ms) Avg (ms) +/- (ms) 1 * 2 static.unknown.charter.com (96.34.68.153) 11.01 35.54 21.82 3 96-34-71-50.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.50) 13.07 32.55 22.25 0.43 4 96-34-71-48.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.48) 21.63 41.07 32.45 10.21 5 96-34-71-46.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.46) 14.55 46.67 26.43 -6.03 6 96-34-71-42.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.42) 23.46 25.66 24.79 -1.64 7 96-34-71-62.static.kgpt.tn.charter.com (96.34.71.62) 26.12 41.72 35.19 10.40 8 atx-edge-02.inet.qwest.net (65.124.15.33) 45.97 56.48 50.17 14.98 9 atl-core-02.inet.qwest.net (205.171.21.9) 45.49 67.54 60.10 9.94 10 67.14.12.125 105.12 138.66 123.14 63.04 11 65.123.13.142 109.23 111.11 110.05 -13.09 12 static.unknown.charter.com (96.34.120.21) 120.84 139.64 128.17 18.11 13 spt01snloca.snlo.ca.charter.com (24.205.224.18) 107.12 120.75 112.08 -16.08 |
|
 ArkiMage
join:2001-06-30 Kingsport, TN
| reply to CharterRoutes From a discussion with a Charter sales rep a few weeks ago I believe that is precisely what they've been working on. Instead of Paying Level3 or AT&T (or ...) for transit to various exchange points, they want to do that themselves. They mentioned having their network live to TelX Atlanta (56 Marietta) soon. Looks like perhaps that's in place now... |
|
 zed260
join:2007-09-30 Cleveland, TN 1 edit | reply to CharterRoutes i know from a source that charter is direct peering with google now at least in cleveland tn
must save a ton on bandwith with youtube |
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  Civrock Premium join:2005-06-25 North Wilkesboro, NC | Any info about plans for this in western NC? Hickory, NC market in particular. |
|
 zed260
join:2007-09-30 Cleveland, TN 2 edits | reply to CharterRoutes from what ive heard they plan on bring all markets into the same backbone over time
personly id like to see charter peer with comcast there combined negatiing power would probably grant them almost as much power as a tier 1 isp |
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  hootabius
join:2009-02-12 | reply to CharterRoutes I'm glad to see that all the work is not going unnoticed. |
|
 AJR
join:2009-03-18 Alabaster, AL
1 edit | reply to CharterRoutes The routing has definitely changed recently.
Trace to Microsoft.com
traceroute: Warning: microsoft.com has multiple addresses; using 207.46.197.32 traceroute to microsoft.com (207.46.197.32), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 10.0.1.1 (10.0.1.1) 0.656 ms 0.264 ms 0.182 ms 2 10.236.0.1 (10.236.0.1) 6.830 ms 8.883 ms 6.394 ms 3 dtr01ledsal-gbe-9-9.leds.al.charter.com (96.34.74.44) 15.127 ms 16.194 ms 15.977 ms 4 static.unknown.charter.com (96.34.79.26) 15.551 ms 16.455 ms 18.185 ms 5 crr01sghlga-tge-0-0-0-6.sghl.ga.charter.com (96.34.78.18) 25.737 ms 34.732 ms 24.205 ms 6 bbr01sghlga-tge-0-1-0-0.sghl.ga.charter.com (96.34.2.40) 30.481 ms 30.886 ms 27.036 ms 7 bbr02sghlga-tge-0-0-0-2.sghl.ga.charter.com (96.34.0.39) 35.063 ms 44.998 ms 40.289 ms 8 bbr01spbgsc-tge-0-0-0-4.spbg.sc.charter.com (96.34.0.41) 31.434 ms 114.064 ms 92.928 ms 9 bbr02spbgsc-tge-0-1-0-2.spbg.sc.charter.com (96.34.0.45) 30.787 ms 57.903 ms 31.792 ms 10 bbr01ashbva-tge-0-0-0-4.ashb.va.charter.com (96.34.0.47) 50.325 ms 48.955 ms 50.603 ms 11 prr01ashbva-tge-1-1.ashb.va.charter.com (96.34.3.13) 49.388 ms 52.236 ms 48.982 ms 12 static.unknown.charter.com (96.34.148.14) 51.436 ms 61.314 ms 50.001 ms 13 ge-7-3-0-56.ash-64cb-1a.ntwk.msn.net (207.46.41.49) 51.511 ms 51.859 ms 70.457 ms 14 ge-4-1-0-0.bl2-64c-1b.ntwk.msn.net (207.46.36.198) 50.896 ms 48.183 ms 48.381 ms 15 ge-3-1-0-0.co2-64c-1a.ntwk.msn.net (207.46.35.149) 132.632 ms 148.253 ms 201.301 ms 16 ge-6-1-0-0.co1-64c-1a.ntwk.msn.net (207.46.34.53) 126.655 ms 125.204 ms 128.624 ms 17 ge-1-0-0-0.wst-64cb-1a.ntwk.msn.net (207.46.34.182) 127.551 ms 142.365 ms 125.969 ms 18 ge-1-0-0-0.cpk-64c-1a.ntwk.msn.net (207.46.35.9) 123.339 ms 124.302 ms 145.604 ms 19 ten3-4.cpk-76c-1b.ntwk.msn.net (207.46.34.118) 189.146 ms 144.616 ms 152.675 ms 20 10.22.0.30 (10.22.0.30) 128.770 ms 135.625 ms 123.581 ms
Trace to Timewarnercable.com
traceroute to timewarnercable.com (165.237.62.28), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 10.0.1.1 (10.0.1.1) 0.916 ms 0.382 ms 0.183 ms 2 10.236.0.1 (10.236.0.1) 76.433 ms 8.167 ms 5.938 ms 3 dtr01ledsal-gbe-9-9.leds.al.charter.com (96.34.74.44) 15.479 ms 19.499 ms 16.609 ms 4 static.unknown.charter.com (96.34.79.26) 23.430 ms 19.282 ms 15.793 ms 5 crr01sghlga-tge-0-0-0-6.sghl.ga.charter.com (96.34.78.18) 27.173 ms 24.963 ms 29.772 ms 6 bbr01sghlga-tge-0-1-0-0.sghl.ga.charter.com (96.34.2.40) 31.999 ms 28.946 ms 43.977 ms 7 bbr02sghlga-tge-0-0-0-2.sghl.ga.charter.com (96.34.0.39) 26.928 ms 30.321 ms 43.242 ms 8 bbr01spbgsc-tge-0-0-0-4.spbg.sc.charter.com (96.34.0.41) 41.110 ms 35.733 ms 34.932 ms 9 bbr02spbgsc-tge-0-1-0-2.spbg.sc.charter.com (96.34.0.45) 32.985 ms 32.076 ms 31.836 ms 10 bbr01ashbva-tge-0-0-0-4.ashb.va.charter.com (96.34.0.47) 51.580 ms 52.451 ms 50.553 ms 11 prr01ashbva-tge-1-1.ashb.va.charter.com (96.34.3.13) 51.092 ms 48.420 ms 57.829 ms 12 static.unknown.charter.com (96.34.148.6) 53.031 ms 81.818 ms 49.052 ms 13 ae-2-0.cr0.dca10.tbone.rr.com (66.109.6.168) 92.768 ms 48.747 ms 52.087 ms 14 cust-nd2-2.dca10.tbone.rr.com (66.109.6.99) 76.914 ms 70.422 ms 97.012 ms 15 75.180.131.53 (75.180.131.53) 65.238 ms 62.618 ms 64.053 ms 16 66.109.1.98 (66.109.1.98) 69.375 ms 92.790 ms 66.416 ms |
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  AMDUSER Premium join:2003-05-28 Earth clubs:
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to Civrock What would be intresting is if Comcast, Time Warner Cable, Cable Vision, and Cox Cable (maybe other cable providers) would build a combined nationwide backbone. Which would allow them to do connect calls from Comcast to Cox Cable (or any other cable provider)without paying Ma Bell and Co. to transfer the call / or connect..
(It could also allow them to offer business data networking / MPLS / Metro Ethernet accross the country almost without regard to who the other cable provider is at the other location. ) |
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 Umatter2Chtr Premium join:2009-01-29 Chesterfield, MO | Per system engineers the Carolinas should be moving over tonight. |
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  RR User
@rr.com
| reply to AMDUSER said by AMDUSER :Which would allow them to do connect calls from Comcast to Cox Cable (or any other cable provider)without paying Ma Bell and Co. to transfer the call / or connect.. Cox, TWC, and Comcast already do this in SoCal. Charter's not part of it though.
They directly peer with each other, no 3rd party net needed.
Snippet from TWC to Comcast: 5 17 ms 25 ms 18 ms ae-5-0.cr0.lax30.tbone.rr.com [66.109.6.64] 6 59 ms 18 ms 15 ms ae-1-0.pr0.lax10.tbone.rr.com [66.109.6.131] 7 18 ms 18 ms 19 ms be-20-602-cr01.losangeles.ca.ibone.comcast.net [68.86.88.137] 8 74 ms 77 ms 76 ms pos-0-14-0-0-cr01.dallas.tx.ibone.comcast.net [68.86.85.142]
Snippet from TWC to Cox: 5 20 ms 16 ms 18 ms ae-5-0.cr0.lax30.tbone.rr.com [66.109.6.64] 6 17 ms 18 ms 28 ms ae-1-0.pr0.lax10.tbone.rr.com [66.109.6.131] 7 19 ms 20 ms 21 ms 66.109.9.114 8 24 ms 22 ms 37 ms 68.1.2.101 9 26 ms 25 ms 25 ms ip98-171-176-1.sb.sd.cox.net [98.171.176.1]
Charter doesn't: 5 16 ms 18 ms 18 ms ae-5-0.cr0.lax30.tbone.rr.com [66.109.6.64] 6 17 ms 18 ms 22 ms ae-1-0.pr0.lax00.tbone.rr.com [66.109.6.129] 7 19 ms 18 ms 19 ms wvfiber.com.any2ix.crgwest.com [206.223.143.33] 8 20 ms 25 ms 38 ms 66.186.192.34 9 30 ms 22 ms 21 ms static.unknown.charter.com [96.34.100.0] |
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 zed260
join:2007-09-30 Cleveland, TN | actuly charter does connect direcitly to time warner cable here but not to any comcast areas |
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 apply17
join:2005-06-15 Easley, SC
·Charter Pipeline
| reply to Umatter2Chtr said by Umatter2Chtr :Per system engineers the Carolinas should be moving over tonight. Cool. Thanks for the info. |
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  Civrock Premium join:2005-06-25 North Wilkesboro, NC
| reply to Umatter2Chtr said by Umatter2Chtr :Per system engineers the Carolinas should be moving over tonight. Thanks for the info! Can't wait to see how it will affect ping times and such.  |
|
 cooldude9919
join:2000-05-29 Cape Girardeau, MO clubs:
| reply to CharterRoutes yea i noticed charter peering directly with time warner a bit ago.
»Unusual high latency's in MO
Makes for some nice pings to some sites in the northeast, but actually worse latency than before to some sites in the southwest. |
|
 viper3431
join:2003-04-21 STL, MO
| reply to CharterRoutes It seems that the route to Chicago from STL has changed too. I switched to DSL months ago because Charter was routing from STL to KC, then to Chicago via Qwest and it was doubling my pings (much of my traffic is to Chicago). It now seems that it has been resolved and we're going back out STL on Level3 which means I'm more motivated to get my 10m back. If it keeps up I'll be an internet customer again soon... |
|
 Tarball
join:2006-06-09 Saint Louis, MO
| said by viper3431 :It seems that the route to Chicago from STL has changed too. I switched to DSL months ago because Charter was routing from STL to KC, then to Chicago via Qwest and it was doubling my pings (much of my traffic is to Chicago). It now seems that it has been resolved and we're going back out STL on Level3 which means I'm more motivated to get my 10m back. If it keeps up I'll be an internet customer again soon... It depends on the network the server you are trying to reach uses. Some servers still go through Qwest in KC or XO in Dallas. |
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 zed260
join:2007-09-30 Cleveland, TN | reply to CharterRoutes hmm charter.net does not seem to go though the new routing but cahrter.com does |
|
  Madison_Mike
@charter.com
| reply to CharterRoutes Wisconsin appears to be on this Backbone.
Tracing route to google.com [74.125.67.100] over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 2 ms 1 ms 1 ms 192.168.1.1 2 * * * Request timed out. 3 8 ms 11 ms 11 ms 96.34.20.177 4 7 ms 8 ms 15 ms 96.34.16.35 5 12 ms 25 ms 12 ms 96.34.16.169 6 14 ms 13 ms 14 ms 96.34.16.145 7 15 ms 14 ms 14 ms 96.34.16.7 8 14 ms 15 ms 15 ms 96.34.2.6 9 22 ms 21 ms 22 ms 96.34.0.9 10 22 ms 22 ms 22 ms 96.34.3.9 11 21 ms 23 ms 22 ms 74.125.51.253 12 23 ms 23 ms 21 ms 209.85.254.128 13 46 ms 45 ms 45 ms 72.14.239.90 14 50 ms 46 ms 46 ms 209.85.254.247 15 45 ms 54 ms 50 ms 64.233.174.46 16 46 ms 45 ms 45 ms 74.125.67.100
Very cool.
This does not seem indicative of a company going through Chapter 11. It looks like more and more Charter will come out of their financial woes with a pretty nice National Backbone. Comcast is the other other Cabke ISP I know with one.
Trace route to Charter.com:
Tracing route to charter.com [24.217.29.127] over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 192.168.1.1 2 * * * Request timed out. 3 8 ms 8 ms 8 ms 96.34.20.177 4 7 ms 7 ms 9 ms 96.34.16.35 5 12 ms 12 ms 12 ms 96.34.16.169 6 15 ms 18 ms 14 ms 96.34.16.145 7 15 ms 13 ms 14 ms 96.34.16.228 8 14 ms 14 ms 15 ms 96.34.2.6 9 22 ms 21 ms 23 ms 96.34.0.9 10 23 ms 24 ms 22 ms 96.34.0.11 11 31 ms 32 ms 30 ms 96.34.0.13 12 32 ms 69 ms 31 ms 96.34.2.17 13 33 ms 31 ms 32 ms 96.34.48.25 14 34 ms 33 ms 33 ms 24.217.31.253 15 34 ms 34 ms 32 ms 24.217.29.211 16 32 ms 35 ms 36 ms 24.217.29.127
Wow, now that is cool. Kudos to Charter. They must peering directly with other ISP's and even Google. |
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