Topic 'TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors' in forum '' - dslreports.com http://www.dslreports.com/forum/TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22350494 en Sat, 11 Feb 2012 14:06:06 EDT Sat, 11 Feb 2012 14:06:06 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22357171 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22357171 Fri, 08 May 2009 00:13:59 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22354176
Second, if Time Warner or any other ISP in North Carolina were concerned about fair play they would be pushing a law that applied to all ISP's, not just muni broadband efforts. While I agree these municipal networks should not be subsidized with tax money there is nothing preventing an ISP from subsidizing prices charged in one market with revenues earned in another. Simply put, if this law passed it would make it legally impossible for a muni broadband network to match prices of an ISP below a certain level. The muni network would only be allowed to lower prices down to the actual cost of the service, allowing a competing ISP, such as TW, to set their prices artifially lower than the muni's (and their own costs) and use revenues from other regions to sustain the lower prices in a relatively small area. It's not the muni projects I'm worried about, it's the ISP's, who have shown their willingness to use any underhanded tactic at their disposal, that I worry about.

As far as the IPI's report, I've said in other posts that muni broadband won't work in all areas, specifically cites that already have broadband (such as those you mentioned). But in cities like Wilson, NC, where the options are limited or non-existent, I don't see a problem.

I'm all for muni broadband so long as it's is self-sufficient and they are not using tax revenues to stay in operation.

PS: A bond is not a tax. Local government can raise taxes without a vote. A bond must be voted for and approved by the public and has a finite time that is in existence.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22354176 Thu, 07 May 2009 13:41:01 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22354006
Provided Revenue bonds are issued (which would be the most appropriate when raising funding for a specific project) then the locality has no obligation to pay off those bonds, and only the cash flow from the project may be used. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22354006 Thu, 07 May 2009 13:11:02 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22353537
I looked at the links you provided and as suspected before even clicking them they are simply links to people arguing for your point of view without showing facts for what I am asking.

I hold 10 $1000 muni bonds from the late 1800 and early 1900's that are worth nothing more than what a collector would be willing to pay me for them.

So again I ask, where does it state that these bonds are government guaranteed? Just because they are government issued DOES NOT mean they can't go to $0. So unless the bonds issued specifically say they are guaranteed putting tax payers on the hook, they are an investment risk just like a stock.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22353537 Thu, 07 May 2009 11:47:14 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22353469 said by ThrowDemsOut:

According to a brand new report released today and authored by IPI senior fellow Barry M. Aarons, municipal broadband has been plagued by failure nearly every time it has been attempted, and at great cost to taxpayers.

When municipal broadband networks fail, it is the taxpayers who must pay for the loss. And municipal broadband systems have been expensive government failures in cities including, but not limited to, Philadelphia, Chicago, Portland and Orlando.

"When the marketplace drives the investment, the results are far superior to any instance when government tries to force a market," said Aarons.
Doc on the failures and the costs to taxpayers:
»www.ipi.org/IPI%5CIPIPublication···nElement
Are you honestly trying to quote the IPI, a thinktank with well established history of pro-industry-biased 'reporting', as a reliable source?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22353469 Thu, 07 May 2009 11:33:50 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22353289
Why not provide a better service, rather than trying to gouge the consumer bolster their bottom line and then crumble when eventually everyone flees, or there is so much pent-up frustration that Municipal Broadband is widespread.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22353289 Thu, 07 May 2009 11:00:02 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22353277 said by ThrowDemsOut:

The reason for support of a law like this is that TWC and other private ISPs don't want to see public companies with taxpayer subsidized lower prices that don't reflect the real underlying costs.So.... TW is being transparent with their true underlying costs, right? They don't want competition. Well go and tell Time Warner to become a citizen and vote. They would not have to fight this if they actually serviced their customers interests, instead of milking them like blind sheep.

From what I can tell, they just don't want other criminals to compete with. At least we can vote out the other criminals, unlike our opportunities with TW.

cw]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22353277 Thu, 07 May 2009 10:57:42 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22353221 said by Skippy25:

Since you keep spouting this off provide a link that shows they are guaranteed by tax payer money.

Bonds can go to 0 and be worthless just like any other investment unless they are specifically guaranteed.
Look it up yourself. I provided a link to the law in a post above.
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Bonds can go to 0 and be worthless just like any other investment unless they are specifically guaranteed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22353175 Thu, 07 May 2009 10:39:32 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22352807 said by amigo_boy:

said by ThrowDemsOut:

That is a distortion of the free enterprise system and tries to hide TRUE costs inside of public budgets that encompass many different services(cross subsidization).
If we're concerned about distorting "TRUE" costs, we should require ISPs to negotiate rights of way and easements with each property owner along the way. Not take advantage of society's planning for such market activities in advance, and greasing the skids for it.

Mark
Truth.
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Obama '08. Will help resolve the terrible broadband issues we have that put us so far behind other countries.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22352807 Thu, 07 May 2009 09:20:59 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22352281
If people want to throw away their money, in all honesty taxes are their way. If they wanted they could send the money to the local government. I don't honestly see the issue with this.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22352281 Thu, 07 May 2009 03:59:46 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22352136 said by ThrowDemsOut:

That is a distortion of the free enterprise system and tries to hide TRUE costs inside of public budgets that encompass many different services(cross subsidization).
If we're concerned about distorting "TRUE" costs, we should require ISPs to negotiate rights of way and easements with each property owner along the way. Not take advantage of society's planning for such market activities in advance, and greasing the skids for it.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22352136 Thu, 07 May 2009 02:05:55 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22351938 --
BlooMe]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22351938 Thu, 07 May 2009 00:29:09 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22351830 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22351830 Wed, 06 May 2009 23:44:10 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22351244 said by woody7:

you understand that you might as well shoot yourself in the head than try to have a realistic conversation with TJ.. ;) ;) ;)
Resorting to personal attacks shows you already lost
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BlooMe]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22351230 Wed, 06 May 2009 21:35:15 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22351169 said by Matt:

said by ThrowDemsOut:

said by Matt:

Those cited muni-broadband failures were WiFi failures Tk. Almost every "cable in the ground" muni deployment has so far been a resounding success -- even with the lawsuits thrown at them.
I seem to remember a few failures out in Utah. Provo & vicinity.
You mean iProvo. That was ONE failure that anti-muni's keep holding up as the shining example of failure. Can you name another?
Marietta, GA
The BBR link: »A Municipal Failure
Lightwave: »lw.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_···440&p=13
Also: »www.reason.org/news/show/1003019.html

Ashland, OR
»votenofeb24.com/case-study-ashla···network/

Memphis, TN
»www.memphisflyer.com/memphis/Con···%3A31049
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said by Matt:

Those cited muni-broadband failures were WiFi failures Tk. Almost every "cable in the ground" muni deployment has so far been a resounding success -- even with the lawsuits thrown at them.
I seem to remember a few failures out in Utah. Provo & vicinity.
You mean iProvo. That was ONE failure that anti-muni's keep holding up as the shining example of failure. Can you name another?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22351053 Wed, 06 May 2009 21:01:00 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22351050 said by Matt:

Those cited muni-broadband failures were WiFi failures Tk. Almost every "cable in the ground" muni deployment has so far been a resounding success -- even with the lawsuits thrown at them.
I seem to remember a few failures out in Utah. Provo & vicinity.
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22351050 Wed, 06 May 2009 20:59:25 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22351038 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22351038 Wed, 06 May 2009 20:56:05 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22351005 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22351005 Wed, 06 May 2009 20:49:04 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22350733 said by ztmike:

said by ThrowDemsOut:

The reason for support of a law like this is that TWC and other private ISPs don't want to see public companies with taxpayer subsidized lower prices that don't reflect the real underlying costs.

That is a distortion of the free enterprise system and tries to hide TRUE costs inside of public budgets that encompass many different services(cross subsidization). In effect, public officials create a very large slush fund where they can hide their politically appointed cronies and where finding where that money came from is difficult, if not impossible.

And if the public broadband venture fails and is unable to payoff the bonds that are used to build out the system, then the taxpayers are left on the hook.

»www.bizjournals.com/dallas/prnew···/DC80943
According to a brand new report released today and authored by IPI senior fellow Barry M. Aarons, municipal broadband has been plagued by failure nearly every time it has been attempted, and at great cost to taxpayers.

When municipal broadband networks fail, it is the taxpayers who must pay for the loss. And municipal broadband systems have been expensive government failures in cities including, but not limited to, Philadelphia, Chicago, Portland and Orlando.

"When the marketplace drives the investment, the results are far superior to any instance when government tries to force a market," said Aarons.
Doc on the failures and the costs to taxpayers:
»www.ipi.org/IPI%5CIPIPublication···nElement
Blah blah..seriously that's all I read from you just now. Aren't you a stock exchange trader for cable isps? What does your argument have ANYTHING to do with what Time Warner is doing lately? NOTHING, that's what.
I am not a stock trader. I invest in mutual funds and have no control over what the mutual fund mgrs invest in. And whether I am invested in cable ISPs or not has nothing to do with the facts outlined above.
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The reason for support of a law like this is that TWC and other private ISPs don't want to see public companies with taxpayer subsidized lower prices that don't reflect the real underlying costs.

That is a distortion of the free enterprise system and tries to hide TRUE costs inside of public budgets that encompass many different services(cross subsidization). In effect, public officials create a very large slush fund where they can hide their politically appointed cronies and where finding where that money came from is difficult, if not impossible.

And if the public broadband venture fails and is unable to payoff the bonds that are used to build out the system, then the taxpayers are left on the hook.

»www.bizjournals.com/dallas/prnew···/DC80943
According to a brand new report released today and authored by IPI senior fellow Barry M. Aarons, municipal broadband has been plagued by failure nearly every time it has been attempted, and at great cost to taxpayers.

When municipal broadband networks fail, it is the taxpayers who must pay for the loss. And municipal broadband systems have been expensive government failures in cities including, but not limited to, Philadelphia, Chicago, Portland and Orlando.

"When the marketplace drives the investment, the results are far superior to any instance when government tries to force a market," said Aarons.
Doc on the failures and the costs to taxpayers:
»www.ipi.org/IPI%5CIPIPublication···nElement
Blah blah..seriously that's all I read from you just now. Aren't you a stock exchange trader for cable isps? What does your argument have ANYTHING to do with what Time Warner is doing lately? NOTHING, that's what. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22350657 Wed, 06 May 2009 19:42:23 EDT Re: TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22350514 said by major marco:

said by ThrowDemsOut:

And if the public broadband venture fails and is unable to payoff the bonds that are used to build out the system, then the taxpayers are left on the hook.
What's the difference? The taxpayers you're so worried about are already on the hook for about $700B and counting in bullshit bank bailouts.
Something I was completely against. Ventures should be ALLOWED to fail and the investors should bear the loss and not the taxpayers.
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And if the public broadband venture fails and is unable to payoff the bonds that are used to build out the system, then the taxpayers are left on the hook.
What's the difference? The taxpayers you're so worried about are already on the hook for about $700B and counting in bullshit bank bailouts. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22350507 Wed, 06 May 2009 19:14:36 EDT TWC and others don't want taxpayer subsidized competitors http://www.dslreports.com/forum/TWC-and-others-dont-want-taxpayer-subsidized-competitors-22350494 don't reflect the real underlying costs.

That is a distortion of the free enterprise system and tries to hide TRUE costs inside of public budgets that encompass many different services(cross subsidization). In effect, public officials create a very large slush fund where they can hide their politically appointed cronies and where finding where that money came from is difficult, if not impossible.

And if the public broadband venture fails and is unable to payoff the bonds that are used to build out the system, then the taxpayers are left on the hook.

»www.bizjournals.com/dallas/prnew···/DC80943
According to a brand new report released today and authored by IPI senior fellow Barry M. Aarons, municipal broadband has been plagued by failure nearly every time it has been attempted, and at great cost to taxpayers.

When municipal broadband networks fail, it is the taxpayers who must pay for the loss. And municipal broadband systems have been expensive government failures in cities including, but not limited to, Philadelphia, Chicago, Portland and Orlando.

"When the marketplace drives the investment, the results are far superior to any instance when government tries to force a market," said Aarons.
Doc on the failures and the costs to taxpayers:
»www.ipi.org/IPI%5CIPIPublication···nElement
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